Snubbing the Deaf community?

[Bottesini]

Originally Posted by shel90

Hope everything is ok.

Thank, Shel. I am sure everything will be fine in the end. I just don't deal with stress.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Bottesini

You are my favorite psych person. I thought you were trying to contradict me.

Sorry. I am in one of the moods where I will rip out the throats of people who dare naysay me.

Sorry you are having a bad day. But yes, I was agreeing with you. Paraphrasing is a counseling technique that we use to let clients know that we are hearing what they are saying, and to give them the opportunity to correct us if we understand what they are saying incorrectly.

[deafdyke]

There is a truth that if you don't use sign you will be shunned by the deaf community.

It has nothing to do with oral skills, unless you insist that is how people must communicate.

Botte, No. What I meant is that if you're oral-first and then want to learn sign or get to know Deafies, you won't be shunned. Many dhh folks learned Sign later. There is a myth in AG BAD that if you have oral abilty you'll automaticly be shunned. Not quite. If you're open-minded and don't act all high and mighty b/c of oral skills or a "better education", and WANT to learn ASL, you won't be shunned.

[violet]

Originally Posted by Bottesini

You are my favorite psych person. I thought you were trying to contradict me.

Sorry. I am in one of the moods where I will rip out the throats of people who dare naysay me.

AHHHH... don't you dare naysay bott! ( ps i had never heard that expression!) but good to know!

[jillio]

Originally Posted by violet

AHHHH... don't you dare naysay bott! ( ps i had never heard that expression!) but good to know!

I wouldn't dare!

[shel90]

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Botte, No. What I meant is that if you're oral-first and then want to learn sign or get to know Deafies, you won't be shunned. Many dhh folks learned Sign later. There is a myth in AG BAD that if you have oral abilty you'll automaticly be shunned. Not quite. If you're open-minded and don't act all high and mighty b/c of oral skills or a "better education", and WANT to learn ASL, you won't be shunned.

It all depends on each individual. Some will shun oral deaf even if they are open minded and willing to learn ASL. However, that shouldn't be the responsibility of the WHOLE Deaf community.

[Cheri]

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Botte, No. What I meant is that if you're oral-first and then want to learn sign or get to know Deafies, you won't be shunned. Many dhh folks learned Sign later. There is a myth in AG BAD that if you have oral abilty you'll automaticly be shunned. Not quite. If you're open-minded and don't act all high and mighty b/c of oral skills or a "better education", and WANT to learn ASL, you won't be shunned.

It's not a myth, some people (mostly Big D Deaf) in the Deaf Community do not encourage late-deafness to join their community and do not automatically accept all deaf in their community. Only individuals who communicate with signed language and attended schools for the deaf. I know this for matter of fact, I've been there. They had closed their door, turned their back, talked down on me as soon as they found out I was raised oral. Again, I'm not saying all deaf people in the Deaf community do this. But, small proportion of individuals do.

[Frisky Feline]

I can understand what you guys mean that some Deaf people in the Deaf community have no part in those people who were raised oral. Well could it be causing of the conflict of interests. I know a lot of Deaf people in the Deaf community have many friends who are late-deafness to join their community more and more lately than before. From my own observation, they simply like them for who they are and late deafness people aren't the type of closed minds regarding with the Deaf issues or community. It's all about the attitude itself. Either Deaf or HOH or late-deafness people who happen to have conflict of interests that leads them to misunderstanding and make assumes they shun each other based on how they were raised in the hearing world preferring oralism. But it is not true. It's a matter of attitude. IMO.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Frisky Feline

I can understand what you guys mean that some Deaf people in the Deaf community have no part in those people who were raised oral. Well could it be causing of the conflict of interests. I know a lot of Deaf people in the Deaf community have many friends who are late-deafness to join their community more and more lately than before. From my own observation, they simply like them for who they are and late deafness people aren't the type of closed minds regarding with the Deaf issues or community. It's all about the attitude itself. Either Deaf or HOH or late-deafness people who happen to have conflict of interests that leads them to misunderstanding and make assumes they shun each other based on how they were raised in the hearing world preferring oralism. But it is not true. It's a matter of attitude. IMO.

I often wonder if it is not the result of being oral that causes certain reactions, but the attitude of the individual that Deaf Culture should adjust to their way of communication rather than them adjusting to Deaf Culture when they are in that environment.

[deafdyke]

It all depends on each individual. Some will shun oral deaf even if they are open minded and willing to learn ASL. However, that shouldn't be the responsibility of the WHOLE Deaf community.

Exactly. There ARE some "deafer then thou" types in the community, which sucks, but the community's acceptance of orally skilled dhh folks isn't based on "deafer then thou" thinking.

[shel90]

Originally Posted by Frisky Feline

I can understand what you guys mean that some Deaf people in the Deaf community have no part in those people who were raised oral. Well could it be causing of the conflict of interests. I know a lot of Deaf people in the Deaf community have many friends who are late-deafness to join their community more and more lately than before. From my own observation, they simply like them for who they are and late deafness people aren't the type of closed minds regarding with the Deaf issues or community. It's all about the attitude itself. Either Deaf or HOH or late-deafness people who happen to have conflict of interests that leads them to misunderstanding and make assumes they shun each other based on how they were raised in the hearing world preferring oralism. But it is not true. It's a matter of attitude. IMO.

I noticed that people from the Deaf communities in bigger cities are more accepting than those from small towns or rural areas.

[VamPyroX]

Originally Posted by sallylou

I think that this person lacks social skills. She could have declined the invitation in a diplomatic way without insulting anyone.

Yeah, it could be that or any other reason.

- lack social skills
- bad experience in the past with deaf people who were worse
- raised as a "hearie"
- raised as "superior"
- don't know sign language

... et cetra, et cetra...

I have one deaf friend who was raised at a level of intelligence as her hearing peers in school. When her family moved, she ended up in a deaf institute where the other deaf students were educated many grade levels below her. For instance, she was in the 10th grade dealing with classmates who were at 3rd grade English and 4th grade math. She couldn't have a meaningful conversation with any of them. By the time she entered college, she would avoid other deaf people whenever possible.

I knew a deaf student at RIT who grew up in hearing school without interpreters. She had excellent speaking skills, but horrible writing and math skills. I don't know how she graduated high school because of her reading, writing, and math skills. She refused to socialize with other deaf students because they were Deaf, used sign language, and/or had a "deaf voice". She preferred to hang out with hearing people or maybe a hard-of-hearing person which she could understand or talk to orally. I had a difficult time helping her hearing boyfriend proofread and correct her essay because her writing was horrible. Yet, she thought that her boyfriend was being too hard on her because she was deaf and not because she had bad writing skills.

So, it could be a number of reasons.

[shel90]

Originally Posted by jillio

I often wonder if it is not the result of being oral that causes certain reactions, but the attitude of the individual that Deaf Culture should adjust to their way of communication rather than them adjusting to Deaf Culture when they are in that environment.

Oh, that will definitely be a problem for the person getting accepted by the Deaf community.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by shel90

Oh, that will definitely be a problem for the person getting accepted by the Deaf community.

Yep. The oral person who walks into Deaf community with the demand that those present must communicate orally because the oral person doesn't know sign is not going to get a good reception. You walk into Deaf Culture, then you adjust to their values and norms. You don't demand that they adjust to yours. Deaf or hearing.

[shel90]

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. The oral person who walks into Deaf community with the demand that those present must communicate orally because the oral person doesn't know sign is not going to get a good reception. You walk into Deaf Culture, then you adjust to their values and norms. You don't demand that they adjust to yours. Deaf or hearing.

BUT when that happens, the Deaf community gets blamed for it not the oral deaf person. Hello?? Why ASL is being used? EQUAL access to communication and info for ALL members and the oral deaf person is capable of learning ASL while many Deaf people struggle to acquire good lipreading and speech skills.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by shel90

BUT when that happens, the Deaf community gets blamed for it not the oral deaf person. Hello?? Why ASL is being used? EQUAL access to communication and info for ALL members and the oral deaf person is capable of learning ASL while many Deaf people struggle to acquire good lipreading and speech skills.

Exactly. It is always "I am oral so the Deaf Community snubbed me." It is never, my attitude was bad, so I got snubbed. Easier to blame it on oralism and Deaf culture than to take responsibility for your own actions.

And then, it sets up a self fulfilling prophecy: See, my mama told me that Deaf Culture didn't like oral people. I was snubbed, so it has to be because I'm oral. Mama was right!

[nope]

Originally Posted by jillio

I often wonder if it is not the result of being oral that causes certain reactions, but the attitude of the individual that Deaf Culture should adjust to their way of communication rather than them adjusting to Deaf Culture when they are in that environment.

I think you might be right. It's hard to accept people who don't accept you in the first place. And what well-established group wants to change how they work just to suit one member?

I may be completely off-base here, but in class we had a late-deafened woman come talk to us. She went on and on about all that she had lost and how she was so disabled now. In comparison, the deaf professor always makes a point to say that Deaf people don't feel disabled. They aren't lacking in any way. They simply can't hear or can't hear well. I cannot imagine the two of them bonding over their deafness, because the late-deafened woman only sees her deafness as entirely negative while the teacher just sees deafness as a part of her -- like curly hair or freckles. It doesn't define her, but it's a small part of who she is. She's certainly not ashamed of it or anything.

I'm not saying it's true; I don't have near enough experience with Deaf Culture. I just know that I would have a hard time sitting in an art club meeting with someone who thinks art is stupid, or a waste of time, or makes you dumber.

[Cheri]

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. The oral person who walks into Deaf community with the demand that those present must communicate orally because the oral person doesn't know sign is not going to get a good reception. You walk into Deaf Culture, then you adjust to their values and norms. You don't demand that they adjust to yours. Deaf or hearing.

Eh? I don't know of any and had heard of any oral person that walked in the Deaf Community and demand that all deaf people in the Community are required to communicate orally.

Read the link of Acceptance by Deaf people... Acceptance by Deaf People - Being Accepted by the Deaf Community

[VamPyroX]

Originally Posted by jillio

Exactly. It is always "I am oral so the Deaf Community snubbed me." It is never, my attitude was bad, so I got snubbed. Easier to blame it on oralism and Deaf culture than to take responsibility for your own actions.

And then, it sets up a self fulfilling prophecy: See, my mama told me that Deaf Culture didn't like oral people. I was snubbed, so it has to be because I'm oral. Mama was right!

Yeah. I've been snubbed by some deafies as well because I don't do things the "Deaf" (yeah, the big 'D') way.

I was parliamentarian for a student assembly for a year and it was a challenge because it was an assembly of deaf representatives from deaf clubs, fraternities, and sororities. It was the fraternities and sorority members that had the highest respect for me since they were trained in parliamentarian procedure. The rest of them would often snub me off because I didn't truly know what their way was like. Sometimes, they would make proposals that were pointless or had a lot of flaws that needed to be ironed out in order to be properly passed. Whenever I tried to point it out, they would either say that I have no right to interfere because I wasn't "deaf enough" or didn't truly understand Deaf Culture. Of course, a lot of those proposals would fail because there were no significance or proper procedure behind them. When those proposals failed, they would simply blame it all on me.

[kokonut]

Originally Posted by Cheri

Eh? I don't know of any and had heard of any oral person that walked in the Deaf Community and demand that all deaf people in the Community are required to communicate orally.

Read the link of Acceptance by Deaf people... Acceptance by Deaf People - Being Accepted by the Deaf Community

Strange, I never heard such a thing like that, either. Making demands like that.

[Buffalo]

Originally Posted by jillio

Finding a cure for disabilities is not normal. Positive self esteem, and well adjusted attitude toward self is normal. Belief that one is inferior simply because one is different is not normal. It is a self destructive pattern of thought.

So the doctor who invented CI is not normal? So Dr. Clark is not normal? No wonder, I had a feeling that he wasn't happy about the fact that his father is deaf.

I get what you mean by that. I see that you mean that a person who is not at peace with his/her disablity is not going to be a happy person. One gotta make peace with the disability in order to be relaxed about life.

[Buffalo]

Originally Posted by nope

I'm not saying it's true; I don't have near enough experience with Deaf Culture. I just know that I would have a hard time sitting in an art club meeting with someone who thinks art is stupid, or a waste of time, or makes you dumber.

Well said! Well said!

[shel90]

Originally Posted by Cheri

Eh? I don't know of any and had heard of any oral person that walked in the Deaf Community and demand that all deaf people in the Community are required to communicate orally.

Read the link of Acceptance by Deaf people... Acceptance by Deaf People - Being Accepted by the Deaf Community

maybe not in YOUR experience but it happens.

[Cheri]

Originally Posted by shel90

maybe not in YOUR experience but it happens.

Can you at least provide a source please, I'm sure there's a story out there if this had happened before.

Most of the time, deaf people are denied being acceptance by a few hardcore Deaf prides because they are not "true" deaf, and does not share the same experience from being deaf. This had happened to most of us.

[kokonut]

Originally Posted by Cheri

Can you at least provide a source please, I'm sure there's a story out there if this had happened before.

Most of the time, deaf people are denied being acceptance by a few hardcore Deaf prides because they are not "true" deaf, and does not share the same experience from being deaf. This had happened to most of us.

That could well be the case, Cheri. This is probably be the most prevalent instances of such attitudes of extremism happening rather than the other way around. At least that what it appears to be the case.

[Frisky Feline]

Originally Posted by shel90

I noticed that people from the Deaf communities in bigger cities are more accepting than those from small towns or rural areas.

yes that is pretty common.

[Frisky Feline]

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. The oral person who walks into Deaf community with the demand that those present must communicate orally because the oral person doesn't know sign is not going to get a good reception. You walk into Deaf Culture, then you adjust to their values and norms. You don't demand that they adjust to yours. Deaf or hearing.

ha ha it brought my memory back. During my college year, one guy who transferred from RIT to gally. When the teacher asked him to asnwer the question during the classsroom. He simply speak without signing. I had to ask him to sign it. He gave me a dirty face and then he signed it for my sake. We didn't get along well for the whole semester. In a few years later, we become friends that he signs religiously all the way.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by nope

I think you might be right. It's hard to accept people who don't accept you in the first place. And what well-established group wants to change how they work just to suit one member?

I may be completely off-base here, but in class we had a late-deafened woman come talk to us. She went on and on about all that she had lost and how she was so disabled now. In comparison, the deaf professor always makes a point to say that Deaf people don't feel disabled. They aren't lacking in any way. They simply can't hear or can't hear well. I cannot imagine the two of them bonding over their deafness, because the late-deafened woman only sees her deafness as entirely negative while the teacher just sees deafness as a part of her -- like curly hair or freckles. It doesn't define her, but it's a small part of who she is. She's certainly not ashamed of it or anything.

I'm not saying it's true; I don't have near enough experience with Deaf Culture. I just know that I would have a hard time sitting in an art club meeting with someone who thinks art is stupid, or a waste of time, or makes you dumber.

I based my observation on over 20 years of involvement with Deaf Culture. And you are quite correct in differences in the way that those deafened from birth, or very early in childhood, view their deafness as opposed to those that are late deafened. Those that are late deafened have suffered a loss. Those who are prelingually deafened haven't: they never had hearing to loose.

DeafCulture serves as an insulator for its members. It is a place where they are free to be themselves. A place where their deafness is the norm and not considered to be a strange variation of hearing. It is where they are free to communicate in a way that is natural to them; a way that allows for complete understanding without all of the hassels they experience in the hearing world. It is a place where they feel understood and accepted. Most have never had an experience that compares when trying to function in the hearing culture.

So, yes, when someone tries to force them to function in the same way they would have to in the hearing world, it is a threat to their security and their happiness. Of course they would reject any attempt to do that.

I am sure we are all familiar with the phrase: "When you are in my house, you follow my rules. In your house, you are free to follow your rules." The same applies here.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Cheri

Can you at least provide a source please, I'm sure there's a story out there if this had happened before.

Most of the time, deaf people are denied being acceptance by a few hardcore Deaf prides because they are not "true" deaf, and does not share the same experience from being deaf. This had happened to most of us.

I have seen it happen on this very forum. Not to mention in the real world.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by kokonut

That could well be the case, Cheri. This is probably be the most prevalent instances of such attitudes of extremism happening rather than the other way around. At least that what it appears to be the case.

Perhaps you should go back and check several of the instances you have posted about. It is clear that attitude, and not signing ability was the problem, and numerous Deaf have attempted to inform you of that. It appears that continues to be the problem.