It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

[jillio]

I have noticed a pattern here and elsewhere that leads me to ask a question. I would like to have honest answers, but will not accept name calling, bullying, or insult in this thread, and will promptly report any posts that contain such. I would also remind everyone that honesty sometimes can be uncomfortable, so if you can't stand someone being honest, it is best that you don't participate in this thread. That said, here goes:

I have noticed on more than one occasion that hearing parents of deaf children have accused the deaf/Deaf community of being unreceptive toward their CI implanted child.I have seen hearing parents accuse the deaf/Deaf community of trying to set their deaf child apart based on the fact that they are implanted. It always, in any discussion of implantation of deaf children, comes down to, "The Deaf community has rejected my child because I chose to give him/her the gift of sound!" The Deaf community, in the end, is always blamed for the lack of contact with other deaf/Deaf that the child has.

I have been around long enough to remember the early days of the CI, and will agree that the deaf/Deaf community has not always been open to the idea of implantation...either for adults or children. I have also seen this attitude change and become more and more accepting toward those that make the choice for themselves or their child. I can honestly say that I do not know a single deaf individual that would, today, reject a deaf child or that child's hearing parents, simply because that child has a CI. I do not know a single deaf individual today that would reject another deaf adult simply because they had chosen to undergo a surgical procedure to provide access to sound, even if it is not a personal choice they would make for themselves. Yet, I continue to hear hearing parents of deaf children claim that the deaf/Deaf community rejected them because their child was implanted.

Here is my question: Is it really the deaf/Deaf community that is rejecting hearing parents and deaf children with CI, or is it the hearing parents themselves who are continuing to set their child apart from the deaf/Deaf community?

In discussions of education, I am still seeing hearing parents make statements such as, "Well, the experience of a deaf adult does not apply to my child, because my child is different. He/she has an implant. It is not the same as it used to be." In discussions of language, I am still seeing hearing parents say, "Well, my child no longer needs sign language, because my child now has a CI, and he/she can hear more than children with HA could ever hear." In discussions of the psycho-social issues of growing up as a deaf child in a hearing environment, I am still seeing parents make the statement, "Well my child will easily integrate into the mainstream because my child has a CI. Better hearing and better oral skills will mean that he/she will not experience the same problems as an adult who grew up without a CI."

For 20 years, I have been hearing these very same comments come from a wide variety of hearing parents of implanted children. And for the same 20 years, I have seen the deaf/Deaf community try to reach out to these parents, relate the painful and negative experiences they have lived through and overcome, only to see these hearing parents of implanted children reply, "Well, I'm sorry, but it will be different for my child." What I have not seen, over the past 20 years, is a great deal of difference in the educational achievement, the linguitic competency, or the psycho-social well being of these kids. I have not seen that it is different for the deaf child with a CI any more than it is different for the deaf child that grew up with a digital hearing aid instead of an analogue.

I see the deaf/Deaf community wanting to accept these kids, and to give these kids a connection that will make a difference in their lives. I see the hearing parents rejecting that with the same pattern of thinking that has continued year after year after year. "So what if my kid is deaf. Its going to be different for them. I am going to to everything in my power to make sure that they have all the advantage that technology can offer, so their experience will be different." I see the deaf/Deaf community reaching out to these children and their hearing parents. I see the hearing parents pushing the deaf community away, believing that what they have to offer is not something their child needs because the same as hearing parents for years and years have wanted to believe, "My child is different." The pattern is obvious, and it is not new. It is the same pattern that has always been there, from the days of analogue HA to digital HA to Cochlear Implant.

What hasn't changed very much at all is the experience of the deaf child. We have seen more and more deaf children with CIs mainstreamed, but we have not seen a decreased need for accommdations that deaf children have always needed in the mainstream. We see deaf children with CIs growing into deaf adults with CIs, but we have not seen a decrease in the number that develop close and abiding friendships with other deaf once they are out of their hearing parent's home. We have seen deaf children with CI learning sign language as adults because their hearing parents insisted on an oral only environment, and we are still seeing reports of them saying they wished they had been given ASL as children. We see deaf children with CI gowing up and getting married, and we still continiue to see that a deaf adult (no matter what technology they use) will still be more likely to marry another adult with hearing loss than a hearing partner. We are seeing deaf children with CIs graduate from high school, despite having been mainstreamed their entire educational career, with literacy rates that fall well below the norm for the hearing students. We see deaf children with CIs grow into deaf adults with CI and still remain underemployed. We see deaf children with CIs enter into their adoloescent years unprepared to complete the transition of separation from the parent, and continue to experience social problems and relationship problems that destroy their self esteem and their sense of identity. We still see deaf adults that have been implanted for many many years that complain of being caught between hearing and deaf worlds, and not feeling as if they belong to either. They are still telling us that they do not fit with the hearing because, despite the advantage of a CI, they were never able to integrate with that group because they missed too much of what went on. They are uncomfortable with the deaf because they were never given the opportunity to associate with other deaf, to learn a visual language, to find the bond of being the same as those with whom they spend their time. As a consequence, they are not "different" than one group, and "alike" another. The feel different with both groups and where ever they go. We see deaf children with CI growing into deaf adults who have no idea what their career options are, because they have never been given the opportunity to observe successful deaf role models in all walks of life. They only know that, because they have a CI, they still can't do some of the same things that their hearing peers can do, but see it as more restricting on their choices because they have never been given an example of what a deaf adult can do, and what deaf adults all over the country do, on a daily basis.

Why is this continuing to happen? Because hearing parents are saying, with ever increasing numbers as the rate of childhood implants go up, "My child is different. My child doesn't need the deaf community, because my child will function, in all ways, the same as a hearing child. My child will have better speech skills. My child will receive a mainstream education. My child will grow up with hearing kids. My child will be different from all the other deaf children that have ever grown up before!"

So, folks, is it the deaf children with CIs that are rejected by the deaf/Deaf community, or is it the hearing parent that sets the deaf child with a CI apart from the deaf/Deaf community? After 20 years of observing this phenomena, I can say, as a hearing parent with a deaf child, and someone trained to observe and see the underlying motivations behind individual behavior, that it is not the rejection of the deaf/Deaf community, but the continuation of the hearing parent that sets the deaf child with a CI apart as being different somehow based on advanced technology. The technology used to provide sound may have changed, but the soul and the needs of a deaf child have not. They are still deaf children, and they are still experiencing the same struggles that deaf children had before the first implant was ever done. Parents simply have a new excuse for believing, despite the lack of change in the outcome, that their child is different. They have a new justification for keeping their child away from the deaf/Deaf community, despite it being the greatest resource they could provide their child. It is not the deaf/Deaf community that rejects. It is the deaf/Deaf community that is continuing to be rejected.

Thoughts, please. And, again, I expect honesty, but I expect civility in the process.

[Daredevel7]

Ooooh! I love honest stuff!! I'm excited about this thread! Hope people are civil!
As for my thought contribution, as long we are being honest here..... I grew up "rejecting" the Deaf community. I wouldn't say that I rejected them, but rather, I did not go out of my way to be a part of them. For example, my mom would keep taking me to those "deaf conventions" so that I can meet new deaf kids my age and she can learn about new different technologies. This was when I was from 6-10 years old, and forgive me for being blunt, but being around with other deaf people kinda freaked me out (remember! I was young!!!). Maybe it was because I didn't know ASL fluently, but I did try to talk to them through fingerspelling and I noticed that every single deaf person I talked to my age was really.... awkward in a social way. And I would try to talk about normal stuff like "Do you have any brothers or sisters?" or "Do you play video games?" and they would KEEP ON asking me "Why don't you know ASL?". So I was very very turned off in terms of wanting to be a part of the Deaf community at a young age. So I admit it, I did sort of reject them for NO reason really.

[Bottesini]

I hope as an old deaf adult it is ok for me to talk here.

I have popped in and out of deaf groups for my whole life and never saw the big deal like people make of it here. Maybe just because I never really know what goes on.

As a child 4 houses down from me was a boy profoundly deaf and not mainstream who was in the deaf program. All kids in our neighborhood signed some.

At 18 I started three years of group home living, and knew several deaf misfits who had come from the state school but did not adjust. They accepted my fine and I learned more sign.

As an older person now when I got so sick and even speechreading is more difficult, deaf friends of my husband at work told him go to sign classes to make my life easier because they see and think I struggle. They teach my husband more at work and he is very accepted.

Our lives are small for socialization, but I really never saw rejection in the way it seems a lot did here.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Ooooh! I love honest stuff!! I'm excited about this thread! Hope people are civil!
As for my thought contribution, as long we are being honest here..... I grew up "rejecting" the Deaf community. I wouldn't say that I rejected them, but rather, I did not go out of my way to be a part of them. For example, my mom would keep taking me to those "deaf conventions" so that I can meet new deaf kids my age and she can learn about new different technologies. This was when I was from 6-10 years old, and forgive me for being blunt, but being around with other deaf people kinda freaked me out (remember! I was young!!!). Maybe it was because I didn't know ASL fluently, but I did try to talk to them through fingerspelling and I noticed that every single deaf person I talked to my age was really.... awkward in a social way. And I would try to talk about normal stuff like "Do you have any brothers or sisters?" or "Do you play video games?" and they would KEEP ON asking me "Why don't you know ASL?". So I was very very turned off in terms of wanting to be a part of the Deaf community at a young age. So I admit it, I did sort of reject them for NO reason really.

Thanks for your insight, Daredevel. I might suggest that their awardness came from being left out of so much in a group that didn't sign. Do you think ifyou had been exposed on a more regular basis...say several times a week or daily...to other deaf kids, you would have been as uncomfortable? I know hindsight is 20/20, but these are the kind of discussions that actually have the potential to open things up and allow us all to make some progress.

Since we are being honest, I will admit, too, that when I first came in contact with the deaf community, and for some time afterward, I was uncomfortable, as well. I had never been around deaf people until my son was born. I didn't want to offend, and I wasn't fluent in ASL yet. I would walk away from every meeting exhausted! It finally dawned on me that they were probably as uncomfortable as I was, and walked away from our meetings just as exhausted because until communication became more natural, it was exhausting for all of us!

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I hope as an old deaf adult it is ok for me to talk here.

I have popped in and out of deaf groups for my whole life and never saw the big deal like people make of it here. Maybe just because I never really know what goes on.

As a child 4 houses down from me was a boy profoundly deaf and not mainstream who was in the deaf program. All kids in our neighborhood signed some.

At 18 I started three years of group home living, and knew several deaf misfits who had come from the state school but did not adjust. They accepted my fine and I learned more sign.

As an older person now when I got so sick and even speechreading is more difficult, deaf friends of my husband at work told him go to sign classes to make my life easier because they see and think I struggle. They teach my husband more at work and he is very accepted.

Our lives are small for socialization, but I really never saw rejection in the way it seems a lot did here.

Of course its okay for you to speak out here. Your experience is as valuable as anyone elses...in many cases more so, because you have had more.

I will admit, as well, that I have seen much more talk of being rejected by the deaf community here on AD than I have ever actually seen in real life. It has been suggested that I never experienced it myself because my son was not implanted, but I truly do not believe that is the case.

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by jillio

Here is my question: Is it really the deaf/Deaf community that is rejecting hearing parents and deaf children with CI, or is it the hearing parents themselves who are continuing to set their child apart from the deaf/Deaf community?

Doing a thesis are we?

My answer is that the hearing parents themselves are continuing to set their child apart from the deaf/Deaf community because learning a new language isn't an easy task as well as that it is foreign to them.

When something is 'new' and 'different'--many people tend to shy away from that.

[Daredevel7]

Originally Posted by jillio

Thanks for your insight, Daredevel. I might suggest that their awardness came from being left out of so much in a group that didn't sign. Do you think ifyou had been exposed on a more regular basis...say several times a week or daily...to other deaf kids, you would have been as uncomfortable? I know hindsight is 20/20, but these are the kind of discussions that actually have the potential to open things up and allow us all to make some progress.

Oh I didn't clarify that most, if not all, of my interacting with the deaf kids in the conventions were one on one. It would be usually my mom would start talking to another parent, so their child and I would be sort of forced to talk to each other to make conversation or play. That type of thing. As for if I signed more... to be honest (and maybe it was because we were children), I probably wouldn't be friends with the kids I met (I am talking about when I was younger). I just could tell they were just.... socially awkward. That does not mean I wouldn't be friends with the other deaf kids who were more outgoing. I did make one friend who knew only ASL, and kept hoping she was there. Now that Im older, and a teeeeeny bit more mature and wiser, I am much more likely to be friends anyone. I guess what I am trying to say is in order to be comfortable with the Deaf community, you have to be fully immersed in it. To me, at a young age, the Deaf community is a bit hard to take at face value especially if you don't know ASL. And I dont mean that they "reject you because you don't know ASL" but because it seems to create inexplicable social barriers other than the obvious communication barriers.
For example: A person who knows mostly Spanish talking to someone who knows only English seems to have total different interaction than someone who knows only ASL talking to someone who knows only English.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Doing a thesis are we?

My answer is that the hearing parents themselves are continuing to set their child apart from the deaf/Deaf community because learning a new language isn't an easy task as well as that it is foreign to them.

When something is 'new' and 'different'--many people tend to shy away from that.

Actually, no. This has nothing to do with my thesis! It is another topic altogether.

I agree that people tend to shy away from that which is "new" and "different".
But the hearing parents that are stating that the deaf community has rejected them due to their child having an implant didn't shy away from the implant...and that is certainly "new" and "different" for most of them.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Oh I didn't clarify that most, if not all, of my interacting with the deaf kids in the conventions were one on one. It would be usually my mom would start talking to another parent, so their child and I would be sort of forced to talk to each other to make conversation or play. That type of thing. As for if I signed more... to be honest (and maybe it was because we were children), I probably wouldn't be friends with the kids I met (I am talking about when I was younger). I just could tell they were just.... socially awkward. That does not mean I wouldn't be friends with the other deaf kids who were more outgoing. I did make one friend who knew only ASL, and kept hoping she was there. Now that Im older, and a teeeeeny bit more mature and wiser, I am much more likely to be friends anyone. I guess what I am trying to say is in order to be comfortable with the Deaf community, you have to be either fully immersed in it. To me, at a young age, the Deaf community is a bit hard to take at face value especially if you don't know ASL. And I dont mean that they "reject you because you don't know ASL" but because it seems to create inexplicable social barriers other than the obvious communication barriers.
For example: A person who knows mostly Spanish talking to someone who knows only English seems to have total different interaction than someone who knows only ASL talking to someone who knows only English.

Good points.

So, you don't see the rejection as being one sided or based on the implant alone, but more of a mutual uncomfortableness (is that a word?:giggle)
based on social and comunnication issues?

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by jillio

Actually, no. This has nothing to do with my thesis! It is another tactic altogether.

I agree that people tend to shy away from that which is "new" and "different".
But the hearing parents that are stating that the deaf community has rejected them due to their child having an implant didn't shy away from the implant...and that is certainly "new" and "different" for most of them.

It is "new" and "different" in terms of the CI's but it's "fixable" to fix the child's hearing instead of taking into account the whole child's well being in terms of holistic.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

It is "new" and "different" in terms of the CI's but it's "fixable" to fix the child's hearing instead of taking into account the whole child's well being in terms of holistic.

I get where you are going. Leaning toward the new and different technology in an attempt to correct is also an attempt to prevent having to embrace a new and different way of life?

[Daredevel7]

Originally Posted by jillio

Good points.

So, you don't see the rejection as being one sided or based on the implant alone, but more of a mutual uncomfortableness (is that a word?:giggle)
based on social and comunnication issues?

Hmm... at first I was gonna say that I only speak for the "hearing" side, but a recent event does reinforce the idea of mutual "uncomfortableness" (if that indeed is a word ) causing "rejection". I went to a banquet recently and sat next to an older man who is HoH or severe (60 dB loss) but he went to the school for deaf and blind and uses ASL as his primary means of communication. He does lipread me well. He is very outgoing, and visits me often in my office, but I noticed that he was very shy and did not want to speak at all in our table. Several people were talking (a group setting) and I talked along with them. I realized that he does not have a problem with interacting with hearing people or anything but.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is inclined to not go to parties, etc. that have mostly hearing people because he is just not comfortable to be in a situation like that. There's REJECTION as in "OMG YOU ARE GETTING THE CI YOU SUCK" and there's rejection where people have a tendency to stay away from situations/groups of people that causes a lot of uneasiness, which I believe is a lot more common.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Hmm... at first I was gonna say that I only speak for the "hearing" side, but a recent event does reinforce the idea of mutual "uncomfortableness" (if that indeed is a word ) causing "rejection". I went to a banquet recently and sat next to an older man who is HoH or severe (60 dB loss) but he went to the school for deaf and blind and uses ASL as his primary means of communication. He does lipread me well. He is very outgoing, and visits me often in my office, but I noticed that he was very shy and did not want to speak at all in our table. Several people were talking (a group setting) and I talked along with them. I realized that he does not have a problem with interacting with hearing people or anything but.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is inclined to not go to parties, etc. that have mostly hearing people because he is just not comfortable to be in a situation like that. There's REJECTION as in "OMG YOU ARE GETTING THE CI YOU SUCK" and there's rejection where people have a tendency to stay away from situations/groups of people that causes a lot of uneasiness, which I believe is a lot more common.

I agree totally on the two types of rejection, as well as the reason behind it. You got right to the point behind mt original question. When a parent claims that they and their child based on the fact that the child has a CI, I think that most of the time, the CI is onlt a very small part of the whole story.

[Daredevel7]

Originally Posted by jillio

I agree totally on the two types of rejection, as well as the reason behind it. You got right to the point behind mt original question. When a parent claims that they and their child based on the fact that the child has a CI, I think that most of the time, the CI is onlt a very small part of the whole story.

I think people DO use the stereotypes of the Deaf community to mask their real reason. Although I am sure there are a few deaf people out there are DO give them shit for it. That older man I mentioned earlier? When I told him that I was getting the implant, he started telling me "horror stories" about the CI and told me that he would NEVER get it, but that doesn't mean he "rejected" me. He still talks to me and considers me a friend.

[Byrdie714]

Originally Posted by jillio

I get where you are going. Leaning toward the new and different technology in an attempt to correct is also an attempt to prevent having to embrace a new and different way of life?

Exactly.

And the hearing parents wonders why their deaf children never come home for the holidays.....

[Hear Again]

As an adult implantee, my experiences with the Deaf community have been very positive. Before I received my first CI, I was concerned about how members of the Deaf community would perceive me. Would they reject me because of my CI? Long story short, they didn't. In fact, several people told me they respected my decision 100% even though it wasn't a choice they would have made for themselves. In terms of spreading misinformation about CIs, it has been my experience that those who are guilty of this have not educated themselves -- or simply choose to believe what they want to believe regardless of the truth. I don't worry about those who belong to the latter group because in the end, a person needs to be happy with themselves and the choices they make.

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by jillio

I have noticed a pattern here and elsewhere that leads me to ask a question. I would like to have honest answers, but will not accept name calling, bullying, or insult in this thread, and will promptly report any posts that contain such. I would also remind everyone that honesty sometimes can be uncomfortable, so if you can't stand someone being honest, it is best that you don't participate in this thread. That said, here goes:


Thoughts, please. And, again, I expect honesty, but I expect civility in the process.

I am sure everything you say stands correct, but when I read " we are going to be honest" , I was hoping to get both sides of the story. Your post tells it as black and white. Since you already reminded everyone , honesty sometimes can be uncomfortable,why dont you tell us the story being too honest that can make all sides uncomfortable ? (if honesty really makes uncomfortable)

Every person is like a leaf of the tree. All leafs has their own view and story. Depending on where they stand they tell us how they see life and everything. Its all beautiful, but it never tells anything about the tree. Everybody is honest in their own way, but we always get the pieces of this honesty ,and nobody puts them together to show the big picture.

Peace
Hermes

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Hear Again

As an adult implantee, my experiences with the Deaf community have been very positive. Before I received my first CI, I was concerned about how members of the Deaf community would perceive me. Would they reject me because of my CI? Long story short, they didn't. In fact, several people told me they respected my decision 100% even though it wasn't a choice they would have made for themselves. In terms of spreading misinformation about CIs, it has been my experience that those who are guilty of this have not educated themselves -- or simply choose to believe what they want to believe regardless of the truth. I don't worry about those who belong to the latter group because in the end, a person needs to be happy with themselves and the choices they make.

Thank you for sharing your experience, Hear Again. And thanks for reaffirming that it is possible to support another's decision even when it is different from your own.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Hermes

I am sure everything you say stands correct, but when I read " we are going to be honest" , I was hoping to get both sides of the story. Your post tells it as black and white. Since you already reminded everyone , honesty sometimes can be uncomfortable,why dont you tell us the story being too honest that can make all sides uncomfortable ? (if honesty really makes uncomfortable)

Every person is like a leaf of the tree. All leafs has their own view and story. Depending on where they stand they tell us how they see life and everything. Its all beautiful, but it never tells anything about the tree. Everybody is honest in their own way, but we always get the pieces of this honesty ,and nobody puts them together to show the big picture.

Peace
Hermes

Putting those pieces together is what I am attempting to do with this thread. That is why I have asked for personal experience and insight.

[web730]

Thanks Jillio for bringing this strange phenomena issue that still persists... indeed a very interesting twist.

I'm quite tired right now from a long football game day yet it was blast.

Will be back tmw and discuss more on this intriguing issue (thread).

[shel90]

I have yet met a Deaf person who totally rejected children with implants. I am sure there are a few out there who do but what makes me sad and a little angry is when the parents hold a WHOLE community responsible for a few extremists and use those few to completely reject or keep their children away from the Deaf community.

About saying that their child is different or will be different, that's an old tune that has been sung a million times over and over for decades. My brother is an ASL tutor for a community college and he was telling me that one of the his students is a deaf guy who grew up with a CI. According to my brother, the deaf guy told him his parents wouldnt allow him to learn ASL or be around other deaf peopple growing up and this kid is only 18 years old. Right away, as soon as he leaves the nest, he starts taking ASL. He told my brother that even with a CI, he still missed out on a lot around hearing people both out and in the classrooms.

My question is...what is wrong with exposing the children to both? I have yet met a Deaf person who was exposed to both abandon the hearing world completely. It is usually those who have been denied ASL and the Deaf community who shut their parents and the hearing world out of their lives. Even that is rare to see anyway cuz many of my Deaf friends and my brother value our parents.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by shel90

I have yet met a Deaf person who totally rejected children with implants. I am sure there are a few out there who do but what makes me sad and a little angry is when the parents hold a WHOLE community responsible for a few extremists and use those few to completely reject or keep their children away from the Deaf community.

About saying that their child is different or will be different, that's an old tune that has been sung a million times over and over for decades. My brother is an ASL tutor for a community college and he was telling me that one of the his students is a deaf guy who grew up with a CI. According to my brother, the deaf guy told him his parents wouldnt allow him to learn ASL or be around other deaf peopple growing up and this kid is only 18 years old. Right away, as soon as he leaves the nest, he starts taking ASL. He told my brother that even with a CI, he still missed out on a lot around hearing people both out and in the classrooms.

My question is...what is wrong with exposing the children to both? I have yet met a Deaf person who was exposed to both abandon the hearing world completely. It is usually those who have been denied ASL and the Deaf community who shut their parents and the hearing world out of their lives. Even that is rare to see anyway cuz many of my Deaf friends and my brother value our parents.

This is very true, Shel. A deaf child in a hearing family will naturally be exposed to the hearing culture. It can't be prevented. It is a part of daily life as a consequence of growing up in a hearing family. IF it is an ethnic family, they will not only be exposed to hearing culture, but to that family's ethnic culture, as well. It takes an effort on the part of that hearing family to step outside themselves to expose that child (and themselves) to Deaf Culture, as well. It gives the child a strong advantage in developing a self identity, in developing self confidence in all situations, and the security of knowing that they have a place in this world where others share their characteristics. Children that find that as an adult, and were denied it as children are the ones that become resentful, and separate themselves from their family. I have seen it happen time and time again. It is not the Deaf Culture that causes the split, it is the hearing family that causes the split by denying the child something that they needed, and then refusing to accept the responsibility for what they have denied that child. It makes the child feel that the love coming coming from their family is conditional based on their compliance to "hearing standards".

The family needs to become involved with, and explore Deaf Culture together in order to provide that deaf child with the security and self knowledge that every child deserves. It makes the familial bonds stronger, it does not weaken them.

It can be likened to a child who is adopted, and then, as an adult, seeks out their birth parents. If the adoptive family sees that as a threat, and doesn't support that child through this exploration, it causes problems in the adoptive family. A child has a need to know these things about themselves. An adopted child usually knows, whether they are told by their adoptive parents or not, that there is something about them that is a bit different from the rest of the family. They grow up feeling it. They feel it even when it isn't expressed, and even when they have grown up in a loving and supportive adoptive home. Wanting to know who out there shares their characteristics is a natural and normal desire. Once it is discovered, it gives them renewed love for the parents that raised them, and the sacrifices those parents made on their behalf. It is the same with a deaf child growing up in a hearing family.

If a Causcasion family adopts an African American child, it is expected that they will do what is necessary to expose that child to African American culture, and it should be expected. I grew up in a multi-ethnic family. It was decided that I would be raised according to my father's cultural background, which was Irish Catholic. However, I was also exposed to my mother's cultural backgropund which was African American and Jewish. It is a part of who I am, and my parents saw the need to make sure that I knew about every culture that I had a connection to. We celebrated Jewish tradition, African American tradition, and Irish-Catholic tradition in my family. We were taught the history of all three cultures. Perhaps, having been given that gift as a child, it made it easier for me to reach outside what I was used to in order to make connections with Deaf Culture for my son. Perhaps that is why I did not see bringing Deaf Culture into out lives as a threat to take my child away, but as a way to enrich all of our lives and make is closer.

Have I, in my lifetime, met some people in the Jewish Culture who turn their noses up because I am multi-racial? Of course I have. But that is not refelctive of the culture as a whole. Have I met some African Americans who have rejected me because I look more white and am not "Black enough"? Yes, to that question, too. But again, it is not reflective of the whole culture. Are their Causcasions out there that turn away from me because of my Jewish and African American heritage? Yes, but they are not refelctive of the whole culture. Are there a handful of deaf people who would do the same to someone with a CI? Sadly, yes. But they are not reflective of the whole culture.

We keep hearing from these parents that deaf kids are individuals, and we can't use the group to say this or that is true about their individual child. Well, Deaf Culture is made up of individuals, as well, and they cannot use their experience with one or two of those individuals to say it is true for the whole group. There will be prejudice everywhere we go. That doesn't mean that every member of that group is prejudiced. Just because a group contains a few individuals that are objectionable in their opinions and behaviors is no excuse to deny a child exposure to the ones that aren't. And, to deny a child exposure based on that limited experience teaches them to think in the same narrow minded and stereotypical way that the parents do. The child will grow up thinking it is acceptable to reject another person because they have met one person from that culture that was mean and opinionated. Prejudice is not born in a child, it is made. We create it. And denying a deaf child exposure to Deaf Culture based on stereotypes and fear is one of the ways we create it. Not only that, but we show that child that we reject others for something that is in the child themself. Sot he child, in turn, believes they must reject that part of themself in order to be accepted. Why would you teach a child that they must reject their deafness in order to be acceptable? It is something that will be a part of them as long as they live. Teach them to embrace it, and to be comfortable with it. The way to do that is to provide them with exposure to others that can show them how.

[jillio]

Originally Posted by web730

Thanks Jillio for bringing this strange phenomena issue that still persists... indeed a very interesting twist.

I'm quite tired right now from a long football game day yet it was blast.

Will be back tmw and discuss more on this intriguing issue (thread).

Glad to hear you enjoyed the game and had a good time! I look forward to what you have to say.

[Liza]

Very thought-provoking, Jillio; and thank you for making this thread a safe place for all of us who may wish to share our diverse views and experience on the subject without the need to be 'right' or to be competitive. I also see the points some of you were trying to make. Yep, when we pool together our experiences and perspectives, we sure help each other see the bigger picture. There's not a lot I know about the bigger picture, so I am really interested in this topic!

I come from a background of growing up deaf in a hearing family with mixed heritage. So, yeah, I'd say that my south pacific islander heritage was predominant in my upbringing since we used to live in the micronesian islands (not hawaii). My deafness seemed to be a minor thing and kinda took the back-burner early on, although my Christian islander relatives would pray fervently for a cure here and there. While my father was rightfully concerned with my education, I had a dysfunctional relationship with my family at an early age. I don't think it was because of my deafness, but it had more to do with how capable my parents were in relating to me and to each other and others.

Hold on there, a little disclaimer here before you read on further~feel free to use your discernment for it will be just all personal 2 cents from me.

So, I feel whatever personal issues parents have in general can affect the deaf child in every aspect.. no matter how good their intentions may be about raising a deaf child. There's just a missing element (nurturing and showing love, etc) or something that goes bump in the night (divisive attitudes, abuse, control, etc). To be honest with ya, I've never met a deaf adult who was truly 'close' to her or his hearing parents yet; when I say this, I mean having a fulfilling relationship of trust and emotional closeness. I honestly wanna know if any of you have this with your parents. I would be glad if you did, though! If not, doesn't this say something?

I don't think experiences and lessons should be easily discounted just because there is a large number who chooses to be part of a deaf community that has similar experiences. I guess every parent keep thinking their deaf kid is gonna be different. There's an element of the universal human condition at work here in the deaf community, so I think it's perfectly valid to learn from past and ongoing lessons different people have gone through and apply that knowledge toward raising a deaf kid so that kid would have it better than what most of we had. Ah, my humanism showing here now! It's all about progress and learning from mistakes and success without bias in order to suceed. Notice that I didn't say anything about CI, ASL, learning speech, education, etc etc, since they aren't really the focus of the point I am trying to make.

I feel that parents do have an incredibly big role and important responsiblity in their children's lives. Nobody can deny that.

The deaf community is full of individuals to me, like others have been saying. It's really impossible to say everyone agrees with each other, and that all of us are Christians or adhere to one, simple belief.

I will stop there now and take a breather from my musings!

[Babyblue]

To be honest. I have had some awesome experience with the hardcore "D"eafs and some not so kind. But I have learned to weed out the bad ones.
By saying that I mean I have been accused of having an audist attitude, Or having the index finger to the forehead as being hearing.

The majority has accepted me for whom I am.

Their are a few that are hardcore that acts like the deaf culture will become extinct.

It may be fear of changes of people deafs accepting CIs. Or that more deafs are looking for other methods of communications.
To give you some of my background. I'm HOH and I speak fairly well. I can use a phone with my volume cranked up. I attended to a deaf school and mainstreamed to a public school. I sign in ASL and PSE.

It depends on who you meet.

Now the other side. I have in the past "not sure if it was in this forum"

That some hearing parents of a CI child will do anything to keep that child from learning any form of sign language.

By saying this is from personal experience.

I had a 3 year old in my preschool class. Had a CI.

That child was a challenge. A lot of behavioral issues. I started teaching the child sign language. The child started responding to me more. The parents flipped out. And came to me and told me to not sign to their child anymore. I was flabbergasted. I had a hard time respecting the parents wishes because I truely felt this child was lost. A week later they withdrew their child. I could have been wrong not respecting the parents wishes to not teach their deaf child ASL. But they told me their child is hearing and that their child doesn't need to know signs and needs to learn to talk

So in diversity their are both sides that needs to work together

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Liza

Very thought-provoking, Jillio; and thank you for making this thread a safe place for all of us who may wish to share our diverse views and experience on the subject without the need to be 'right' or to be competitive. I also see the points some of you were trying to make. Yep, when we pool together our experiences and perspectives, we sure help each other see the bigger picture. There's not a lot I know about the bigger picture, so I am really interested in this topic!

I come from a background of growing up deaf in a hearing family with mixed heritage. So, yeah, I'd say that my south pacific islander heritage was predominant in my upbringing since we used to live in the micronesian islands (not hawaii). My deafness seemed to be a minor thing and kinda took the back-burner early on, although my Christian islander relatives would pray fervently for a cure here and there. While my father was rightfully concerned with my education, I had a dysfunctional relationship with my family at an early age. I don't think it was because of my deafness, but it had more to do with how capable my parents were in relating to me and to each other and others.

Hold on there, a little disclaimer here before you read on further~feel free to use your discernment for it will be just all personal 2 cents from me.

So, I feel whatever personal issues parents have in general can affect the deaf child in every aspect.. no matter how good their intentions may be about raising a deaf child. There's just a missing element (nurturing and showing love, etc) or something that goes bump in the night (divisive attitudes, abuse, control, etc). To be honest with ya, I've never met a deaf adult who was truly 'close' to her or his hearing parents yet; when I say this, I mean having a fulfilling relationship of trust and emotional closeness. I honestly wanna know if any of you have this with your parents. I would be glad if you did, though! If not, doesn't this say something?

I don't think experiences and lessons should be easily discounted just because there is a large number who chooses to be part of a deaf community that has similar experiences. I guess every parent keep thinking their deaf kid is gonna be different. There's an element of the universal human condition at work here in the deaf community, so I think it's perfectly valid to learn from past and ongoing lessons different people have gone through and apply that knowledge toward raising a deaf kid so that kid would have it better than what most of we had. Ah, my humanism showing here now! It's all about progress and learning from mistakes and success without bias in order to suceed. Notice that I didn't say anything about CI, ASL, learning speech, education, etc etc, since they aren't really the focus of the point I am trying to make.

I feel that parents do have an incredibly big role and important responsiblity in their children's lives. Nobody can deny that.

The deaf community is full of individuals to me, like others have been saying. It's really impossible to say everyone agrees with each other, and that all of us are Christians or adhere to one, simple belief.

I will stop there now and take a breather from my musings!

Thank you for showing us your perspective of a deaf person from a multi-cultural background. You posts was very insightful and thought filled.

[Liza]

Thanks Jillio!

I'd like to add another thought: Does the end really justify the means?

[jillio]

Originally Posted by Liza

Thanks Jillio!

I'd like to add another thought: Does the end really justify the means?

That is an excellent question, and one which we should constantly ask ourselves.

[Babyblue]

Originally Posted by jillio

That is an excellent question, and one which we should constantly ask ourselves.

I agree.

Diversity is also between the "d"eaf and "D"eaf culture as well as it is in the hearing.

The best thing to ask ourselves is how we can all accept our differences. Hearing or deaf. And come to an understanding. We would all love to save the world.

Everyone thinks they have all the answers but in reality. No one actually does.

[Hear Again]

Originally Posted by jillio

This is very true, Shel. A deaf child in a hearing family will naturally be exposed to the hearing culture. It can't be prevented. It is a part of daily life as a consequence of growing up in a hearing family. IF it is an ethnic family, they will not only be exposed to hearing culture, but to that family's ethnic culture, as well. It takes an effort on the part of that hearing family to step outside themselves to expose that child (and themselves) to Deaf Culture, as well. It gives the child a strong advantage in developing a self identity, in developing self confidence in all situations, and the security of knowing that they have a place in this world where others share their characteristics. Children that find that as an adult, and were denied it as children are the ones that become resentful, and separate themselves from their family. I have seen it happen time and time again. It is not the Deaf Culture that causes the split, it is the hearing family that causes the split by denying the child something that they needed, and then refusing to accept the responsibility for what they have denied that child. It makes the child feel that the love coming coming from their family is conditional based on their compliance to "hearing standards".

The family needs to become involved with, and explore Deaf Culture together in order to provide that deaf child with the security and self knowledge that every child deserves. It makes the familial bonds stronger, it does not weaken them.

It can be likened to a child who is adopted, and then, as an adult, seeks out their birth parents. If the adoptive family sees that as a threat, and doesn't support that child through this exploration, it causes problems in the adoptive family. A child has a need to know these things about themselves. An adopted child usually knows, whether they are told by their adoptive parents or not, that there is something about them that is a bit different from the rest of the family. They grow up feeling it. They feel it even when it isn't expressed, and even when they have grown up in a loving and supportive adoptive home. Wanting to know who out there shares their characteristics is a natural and normal desire. Once it is discovered, it gives them renewed love for the parents that raised them, and the sacrifices those parents made on their behalf. It is the same with a deaf child growing up in a hearing family.

If a Causcasion family adopts an African American child, it is expected that they will do what is necessary to expose that child to African American culture, and it should be expected. I grew up in a multi-ethnic family. It was decided that I would be raised according to my father's cultural background, which was Irish Catholic. However, I was also exposed to my mother's cultural backgropund which was African American and Jewish. It is a part of who I am, and my parents saw the need to make sure that I knew about every culture that I had a connection to. We celebrated Jewish tradition, African American tradition, and Irish-Catholic tradition in my family. We were taught the history of all three cultures. Perhaps, having been given that gift as a child, it made it easier for me to reach outside what I was used to in order to make connections with Deaf Culture for my son. Perhaps that is why I did not see bringing Deaf Culture into out lives as a threat to take my child away, but as a way to enrich all of our lives and make is closer.

Have I, in my lifetime, met some people in the Jewish Culture who turn their noses up because I am multi-racial? Of course I have. But that is not refelctive of the culture as a whole. Have I met some African Americans who have rejected me because I look more white and am not "Black enough"? Yes, to that question, too. But again, it is not reflective of the whole culture. Are their Causcasions out there that turn away from me because of my Jewish and African American heritage? Yes, but they are not refelctive of the whole culture. Are there a handful of deaf people who would do the same to someone with a CI? Sadly, yes. But they are not reflective of the whole culture.

We keep hearing from these parents that deaf kids are individuals, and we can't use the group to say this or that is true about their individual child. Well, Deaf Culture is made up of individuals, as well, and they cannot use their experience with one or two of those individuals to say it is true for the whole group. There will be prejudice everywhere we go. That doesn't mean that every member of that group is prejudiced. Just because a group contains a few individuals that are objectionable in their opinions and behaviors is no excuse to deny a child exposure to the ones that aren't. And, to deny a child exposure based on that limited experience teaches them to think in the same narrow minded and stereotypical way that the parents do. The child will grow up thinking it is acceptable to reject another person because they have met one person from that culture that was mean and opinionated. Prejudice is not born in a child, it is made. We create it. And denying a deaf child exposure to Deaf Culture based on stereotypes and fear is one of the ways we create it. Not only that, but we show that child that we reject others for something that is in the child themself. Sot he child, in turn, believes they must reject that part of themself in order to be accepted. Why would you teach a child that they must reject their deafness in order to be acceptable? It is something that will be a part of them as long as they live. Teach them to embrace it, and to be comfortable with it. The way to do that is to provide them with exposure to others that can show them how.