Speech reading barriers - Page 2

Chase · 06-06-2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

how can you know if they're smiling because they think you're dumb? maybe they're just happy?

It really makes no difference why the constant smilers are smiling -- it's a barrier to speech reading due to the drawn configuration of lips, teeth, chin, etc. The smilers may be practiced at pronouncing precisely, much the way ventrilaquists do, but that's no benefit to deafies.

Matilda · 06-06-2008, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

It really makes no difference why the constant smilers are smiling -- it's a barrier to speech reading due to the drawn configuration of lips, teeth, chin, etc. The smilers may be practiced at pronouncing precisely, much the way ventrilaquists do, but that's no benefit to deafies.

Well said! .... As I mentioned in another thread, I have 4 uncles exactly like ventriloquists! So annoying!

Miss-Delectable · 06-06-2008, 03:31 AM

At my work, I noticed that I couldn't lipread a customer if they had some teeth missing. I was like in my mind 'huh, what did you say?'. Admittedly, it's distracting, too, when I couldn't focus on their lips because of all those missing teeth!

I realised having a full of teeth tends to make words form better with lips than without. JMO

Chase · 06-06-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss-Delectable

At my work, I noticed that I couldn't lipread a customer if they had some teeth missing. I was like in my mind 'huh, what did you say?'.

I never analyzed it until you mentioned the distraction factor, Miss D, but I know I have to take a step or two back when there's some anomaly like you mentioned -- seriously missing teeth, extensive braces, gaudy jewelry pierced through the lips or tongue.

If I don't step back and speech read more than lip read (you silent observers know what I mean) I get too focused on the object and lose track of clues.

That's a definite barrier.

deafskeptic · 06-06-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepsi

I know exactly what you are saying Shel,sometimes I feel like I want to punch them in the face.

Perhaps we should buy a poster of the Joker with his big grin and throw darts at it.

On more serious note, I think I know what shel and deafbajagal are on about. Too bad we can't throw darts at them.

deafskeptic · 06-06-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss-Delectable

At my work, I noticed that I couldn't lipread a customer if they had some teeth missing. I was like in my mind 'huh, what did you say?'. Admittedly, it's distracting, too, when I couldn't focus on their lips because of all those missing teeth!

I realised having a full of teeth tends to make words form better with lips than without. JMO

Ha ha. There are few things lip readers dread more than people with missing teeth. I hear many hearing have a hard time understanding those people too.

jenni-m · 06-06-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

I never analyzed it until you mentioned the distraction factor, Miss D, but I know I have to take a step or two back when there's some anomaly like you mentioned -- seriously missing teeth, extensive braces, gaudy jewelry pierced through the lips or tongue.

If I don't step back and speech read more than lip read (you silent observers know what I mean) I get too focused on the object and lose track of clues.

That's a definite barrier.

That's interesting!
I think that is a bit similar to me in ways, and probably why I don't lip/speech read (aside from having to be -uncomfortably- close)...

I only have a small 'window' of vision, and very near sighted, so having to be close makes that 'window' even 'smaller'. So I can miss a lot of things and not even realize it, even with visual text I have to scan over it and build a context, a lot of it going by memory... how much I use memory depends on how many times I am willing to scan over it and make sure I have it 'right'.

Interesting things can happen here, (you will know especially if you know about 'garden paths' and such in English, among other context 'tricks')

A fun example of this is "The car driven past the barn crashed."
We see "the barn crashed" but, the barn did not crash, the car crashed. This can be confusing. That particular phrase is small enough for me to catch the difference, but if it were longer... I might see something similar to the "barn crashing" effect, and say "what? what is this?!"

Chase · 06-06-2008, 03:33 PM

Those are really good examples of barriers to speech reading from the way different speakers express themselves.

The case of "The car driven past the barn crashed" shows a chance for confusion even in a correct sentence, but it takes time to see the kernal sentence is "The car crashed."

Worse are mangled sentences we see, like "He found a dollar walking home" and "Taking off from the Albany airport, the sun rose reddly in the east." I must have puzzled over that last one for five whole minutes. It just didn't make sense! Ha ha ha.

jenni-m · 06-06-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

Those are really good examples of barriers to speech reading from the way different speakers express themselves.

The case of "The car driven past the barn crashed" shows a chance for confusion even in a correct sentence, but it takes time to see the kernal sentence is "The car crashed."

Worse are mangled sentences we see, like "He found a dollar walking home" and "Taking off from the Albany airport, the sun rose reddly in the east." I must have puzzled over that last one for five whole minutes. It just didn't make sense! Ha ha ha.

What is even worse is something like:
""Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo."

From wikipedia ( Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a grammatically correct sentence used as an example of how homonyms and homophones can be used to construct complicated constructs. It has been discussed in literature since 1972 when the sentence was used by William J. Rapaport, currently an associate professor at the University at Buffalo.[1] It was posted to Linguist List by Rapaport in 1992.[2] It was also featured in Steven Pinker's 1994 book The Language Instinct. Sentences of this type, although not in such a refined form, have been known for a long time. A classic example is the proverb "Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you".

Sentence construction

The sentence is unpunctuated and uses three different readings of the word "buffalo". In order of their first use, these are

* c. The city of Buffalo, New York (or any other place named "Buffalo"), which is used as an adjective in the sentence and is followed by the animal;
* a. The animal buffalo, in the plural (equivalent to "buffaloes"), in order to avoid articles (a noun);
* v. The verb "buffalo" meaning to bully, confuse, deceive, or intimidate.

Marking each "buffalo" with its use as shown above gives

Buffaloc buffaloa Buffaloc buffaloa buffalov buffalov Buffaloc buffaloa.

Thus, the sentence when parsed reads as a description of the pecking order in the social hierarchy of buffaloes living in Buffalo:

[Those] (Buffalo buffalo) [whom] (Buffalo buffalo buffalo) buffalo (Buffalo buffalo).
[Those] buffalo(es) from Buffalo [that are intimidated by] buffalo(es) from Buffalo intimidate buffalo(es) from Buffalo.
Bison from Buffalo, New York who are intimidated by other bison in their community also happen to intimidate other bison in their community. [...]

***VamPyroX*** · 06-08-2008, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

I definitely can relate to that.

It annoys me at the most when I ask a person to it slow down and they're like "Ookkkkaaaay, Caaaaaannnnn yooooooouu unnnnddeeerrrstttaaand meeee nowwwww?"

*groans*

Did you reply the same way? "Yeeeeessss.... IIIIIII... caaaaaaannnnnn."

Bottesini · 06-08-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

Did you reply the same way? "Yeeeeessss.... IIIIIII... caaaaaaannnnnn."

***~SG~*** · 06-08-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

Did you reply the same way? "Yeeeeessss.... IIIIIII... caaaaaaannnnnn."

***Jolie77*** · 06-08-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

Did you reply the same way? "Yeeeeessss.... IIIIIII... caaaaaaannnnnn."

Haha, No. I don't think I would want to look stupid by doing that. When they do that, I usually make a weird look and I'm like......"Uh Okay."

deafbajagal · 06-08-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

Did you reply the same way? "Yeeeeessss.... IIIIIII... caaaaaaannnnnn."

Haha. Thhhhhaaaaaattttt (pause) iiiiiiiiissssssss (pause) soooooooooooooooo (pause) funnnnnnnnnnnnnnny!

GenericName · 06-08-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

Last night at the public library, I was on volunteer duty, returning books to the shelves. A young lady approached already speaking in a rapid and breathless manner:

". . . uh . . . you know . . . like . . . lost my book . . . your book . . . the library’s book . . . that was . . . you know . . . I mean . . . like due last . . . um . . . week . . . you know. . . ."

Held up my hand to stop her. “I’m deaf,” I said, also making the sign for deaf. “But I can speech read if you can go a bit slower.” By that time I had waded through her lip movements, shrugs, and facial contortions to understand that she was trying to say: “I can’t find my overdue library book. What do I do now?”

She then spoke v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y. “Is . . . uh . . . some . . . uh . . . one . . . some . . . body . . . you know . . . a person . . . that . . . ur . . . can . . . like, you know . . . talk . . . and . . . um . . . here?”

The last phrase could have been “can talk and hear” or “can talk here.” Who knows? But it was delivered with a deep frown, eyes darting around like she was looking for an escape route.

Anyway, I said, “Sure. I’ll take you to the checkout desk to speak to the librarian.”

She never smiled, never looked grateful, never offered thanks, but when we got to the desk, she said to the librarian (not to me, the retard), “He . . . um . . . like . . . you know . . . talks . . . um . . . I mean . . . real . . . um . . . good.”

Lots better than you, I thought, but didn’t say out loud. If you speech read, what are some of the barriers you encounter?

I am a hearing person and I know that teenagers (like myself) and children always throw words such as "like" or "um.." and other phrases like those that into their speech. I can only imagine how hard it must be to lipread when people pause and use unnecessary words in their speech.

Chase · 06-08-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenericName

I am a hearing person and I know that teenagers (like myself) and children always throw words such as "like" or "um.." and other phrases like those that into their speech. I can only imagine how hard it must be to lipread when people pause and use unnecessary words in their speech.

Seeing the problem is sometimes the beginning of the solution, so thank you. But the barriers caused by filler phrases, kewl talk, and expletives isn't just on the part of children and teens.

On a recent People's Court TV broadcast, I saw by closed captions a 24-year-old repeating a conversation:

"I was like ya know who're you to diss me, and she's all like she's I mean so glitter and we're like so gutter what crap ya know." Ha ha ha, the judge had to stop and ask for a translation.

You're right; it's pure hell for speech readers.

***VamPyroX*** · 06-09-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

Haha, No. I don't think I would want to look stupid by doing that. When they do that, I usually make a weird look and I'm like......"Uh Okay."

Hahaha...

Well, someone did that to me once. I replied like a normal person. The face expression they made... priceless.

Matilda · 06-09-2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

But the barriers caused by filler phrases, kewl talk, and expletives isn't just on the part of children and teens.

On a recent People's Court TV broadcast, I saw by closed captions a 24-year-old repeating a conversation:

"I was like ya know who're you to diss me, and she's all like she's I mean so glitter and we're like so gutter what crap ya know." Ha ha ha, the judge had to stop and ask for a translation.

That kind of conversations drives me up the wall! The judge is not the only one who would like a translation.

Also it's no wonder why young people question themselves of why they can't get pass the first interview for a job!

***Jolie77*** · 06-09-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozzie

That kind of conversations drives me up the wall! The judge is not the only one who would like a translation.

Also it's no wonder why young people question themselves of why they can't get pass the first interview for a job!

Agreed. Also, it's already confusing when things are broken in a sentence. That kind of thing flies over my head and I'm like... "Say what? You lost me."

Gee I oughta kick myself in the head because I tend to use the word "like" in some of the sentences but I try not to make it a habit to talk like that.

Chase · 06-10-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

Agreed. Also, it's already confusing when things are broken in a sentence. That kind of thing flies over my head and I'm like... "Say what? You lost me."

I don't usually get to say even that. While I'm still trying to fit meanings and context, those kinds of speakers roll their eyes, say "never mind," and are gone.

"Never-minds" are another big barrier to speech reading. Having had it happen a number of times, lots of us speech readers are intimidated into rushing our conclusions of what's said -- not wanting them to repeat, as it's usually in the same confusing style.

Buffalo · 06-10-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenni-m

What is even worse is something like:
""Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo."

From wikipedia ( Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a grammatically correct sentence used as an example of how homonyms and homophones can be used to construct complicated constructs. It has been discussed in literature since 1972 when the sentence was used by William J. Rapaport, currently an associate professor at the University at Buffalo.[1] It was posted to Linguist List by Rapaport in 1992.[2] It was also featured in Steven Pinker's 1994 book The Language Instinct. Sentences of this type, although not in such a refined form, have been known for a long time. A classic example is the proverb "Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you".

Sentence construction

The sentence is unpunctuated and uses three different readings of the word "buffalo". In order of their first use, these are

* c. The city of Buffalo, New York (or any other place named "Buffalo"), which is used as an adjective in the sentence and is followed by the animal;
* a. The animal buffalo, in the plural (equivalent to "buffaloes"), in order to avoid articles (a noun);
* v. The verb "buffalo" meaning to bully, confuse, deceive, or intimidate.

Marking each "buffalo" with its use as shown above gives

Buffaloc buffaloa Buffaloc buffaloa buffalov buffalov Buffaloc buffaloa.

Thus, the sentence when parsed reads as a description of the pecking order in the social hierarchy of buffaloes living in Buffalo:

[Those] (Buffalo buffalo) [whom] (Buffalo buffalo buffalo) buffalo (Buffalo buffalo).
[Those] buffalo(es) from Buffalo [that are intimidated by] buffalo(es) from Buffalo intimidate buffalo(es) from Buffalo.
Bison from Buffalo, New York who are intimidated by other bison in their community also happen to intimidate other bison in their community. [...]

... This Buffalo is confused....

Buffalo · 06-10-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

No, there is a certain look..I think others who grew up orally know what I am talking about. With that big "Joker"-like grin and the constant nodding of the head but the conversation is one-way with me doing the talking rather than two-way with a healthy dialogue. It is hard to explain via Internet but I know when someone really doesnt want to deal with me simply because of my different needs of communication as a deaf person.

Nervous grin? Sometimes I wonder how much the person understand my speech.

Bottesini · 06-10-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

I don't usually get to say even that. While I'm still trying to fit meanings and context, those kinds of speakers roll their eyes, say "never mind," and are gone.

"Never-minds" are another big barrier to speech reading. Having had it happen a number of times, lots of us speech readers are intimidated into rushing our conclusions of what's said -- not wanting them to repeat, as it's usually in the same confusing style.

I fix them with my piercing gaze. Honestly, if I want to communicate with them, they don't usually dare leave! Sometimes they can't understand me, but I make them do that too!

Grummer · 06-10-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

06-06-2008, 03:31 AM	#33 (permalink)
Miss-Delectable Capt Tony Nelson, Jeannie Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: No.1 Shopping Capital in Australia Posts: 8,854 Blog Entries: 3	At my work, I noticed that I couldn't lipread a customer if they had some teeth missing. I was like in my mind 'huh, what did you say?'. Admittedly, it's distracting, too, when I couldn't focus on their lips because of all those missing teeth! I realised having a full of teeth tends to make words form better with lips than without. JMO __________________

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06-06-2008, 03:33 PM	#38 (permalink)
Chase Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,316	Those are really good examples of barriers to speech reading from the way different speakers express themselves. The case of "The car driven past the barn crashed" shows a chance for confusion even in a correct sentence, but it takes time to see the kernal sentence is "The car crashed." Worse are mangled sentences we see, like "He found a dollar walking home" and "Taking off from the Albany airport, the sun rose reddly in the east." I must have puzzled over that last one for five whole minutes. It just didn't make sense! Ha ha ha.