Eugenics in this modern day and age - Page 3

Banjo · 12-01-2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I hope not too, but you know that's the usual path.

You know, if my government was ever to consider such a thing... I'll definitely make some noise over it.

Reba · 12-01-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

You know, if my government was ever to consider such a thing... I'll definitely make some noise over it.

Good for you! Both thumbs up!

dreama · 12-03-2007, 02:50 PM

This is terrible. I'm really upset about this.

I will have to find what the early day motion against it is so I can write to my MP to ask them to back it.

dreama · 12-03-2007, 04:35 PM

Does anyone know of the name of the early day motion that apposes this bill. I've just been looking for it but can't find it.

Edit to say: I've found it at last. It's an EDM entitled Role of the fathers but they are aposing the bill for entirely differant reasons. It doesn't even mention the implications for the disabled at all.

Grummer · 12-04-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Oh, wait.......................so this is more like preventing delibirately deaf IVF babies from being born?
I actually find that extremely dumb. The MP who is pushing for this, prolly has NO plm whatsoever with yuppie moms and dads creating their very own high IQ, totally designer baby.
Deafness is pretty much BENIGN. It's not like something like Huntington's Disease or mild autism, or depression or other mental issues.
I wish people would realize that physical disabilty is something you can adapt to and live rich full lives. Sure, the kids won't be able to hear..............but so what?

rock on Deafdyke

Grummer · 12-04-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

You never have to accept other people's definitions, even if they do carry the force of law. For lack of better terms I will say there are disabilities and disadvantages. Having MS with uncontrolable siezures is a disability -- Having the mind of a five year old in a thirty year old body is a disability -- There is not a lot a person can do to get around these things.

On the other hand loss of a hand, arm, foot, leg, speech, hearing, smell, youth, are disadvantages that can and do happen to anyone at any age.

The question then becomes: "Should someone who carries a gene that makes an early disadvantage more likely be allowed to pass that gene on to future generations?"

Then there is the question that is always present: "How far should any government go in protecting its constituants? At what point does it cease to be protection and become persecution?"

I personally believe anyone effected/affected by a decision should have a voice in that decision.

This is thought-provocative, where do they draw the line between the usefulness of genetics technology and genocide? I suspect this lies somewhere in the murky complexity of ethics and perhaps even the key debates could be well be supported by politics of disabiility. i do not understand the concepts of ethics very well, it is not my area, but my hunch is that, there needs to be a lot more study into this area if should we gain any position to counter this awful movement of technological genocide.

off topic, have any of you watched the film "The Island" a sci-fi setted in not so distant future where medical insurance policies has evolved in such a way that condone and conceal their affairs of medical intervention to support the health of the very rich. What im trying to say here is, that this gene-manipulation movement is heading this way, and that removing 'unwanted' defects is a (ahem) small part towards this end, while right now they are at this stage of 'advancement' of their understanding and their techniques are still in early developmental phase. I hate to say, but this is going to be extremely difficult, to say, "except for deaf babies, it is not a defect" while the medical institutes and their chasing of medical heroisms is not going to help find empathic doctors to to jump fences to support and say "deaf people are right, they have rights, they should be allowed to have deaf babies", like doctors dont think of deafness in terms of lifestyle, they think its a problem, equavalent as researching to eradicate cancer.

Hate to say this even more so that we are so reliant on technology (using it right now on this laptop), technology advancements rely on education of the young, and up and coming technicans, this includes medical technicans!
I sometimes wonder if there are any literatures out there on the connection between technocrats and medicine, if there was (and bound to be) then this would be a good source to base from to develop the arguement to counter the slick use of ethics, and being aware of how societys consciousness are shaped with 'awareness of how health can be changed' that is buying and selling (grown, or genetically duplicated) organs.
I know this seem wacko me saying all this, but im simply trying to highlight the powerful force behind all this science and availbility of this medical intervenion (at present and in future and hopes for the future nonsense-talk) which is believed to enchance the human race, its ideals and utopian dreams, which gives people a false sense of ethics. pretty scary eh?

I feel I need to clarifiy what IS Disability, it is NOT a physical symptom, disabilty refers to the way how society mistreats an individual as some form of sub-human, having a mind of a 5 yo in a 30 yo is not a disability, but a serious body-mind impairment. Thats right it is an impairment. Disability is to do with society, like racism.

Lastly, I'm also saying ethics is not neutral either.

InnocentOdion · 12-08-2007, 10:15 AM

Oh man, this is terrifying. I am so going to let my BSL teacher know of this. If this law passes, I am so out of this country. I may not be D/deaf, but I am HOH and I'd hate to think that this could go on. This is inhumane. It looks like Hitler's getting his way, and people seem to be striving for 'perfect' children. The doctors thought my daughter might have feeding problems when she's born, and asked if we wanted to have her aborted because she 'may' have them. Sickening. (btw, she's a perfectly fine, noisy little darling

no feeding problems at all)

Why aren't we, the general population, consulted on such things?
Sheesh, I swear this country sets laws and whatnot for you to obey, but it doesn't offer you the chance to vote for or against them. Ack.

Grummer · 12-11-2007, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

Oh man, this is terrifying. I am so going to let my BSL teacher know of this. If this law passes, I am so out of this country. I may not be D/deaf, but I am HOH and I'd hate to think that this could go on. This is inhumane. It looks like Hitler's getting his way, and people seem to be striving for 'perfect' children. The doctors thought my daughter might have feeding problems when she's born, and asked if we wanted to have her aborted because she 'may' have them. Sickening. (btw, she's a perfectly fine, noisy little darling

no feeding problems at all)

for or against them. Ack.

well well, yeah exactly man!, thats the very reason,
Why aren't we, the general population, consulted on such things?
Sheesh, I swear this country sets laws and whatnot for you to obey, but it doesn't offer you the chance to vote
if you think about it, that exaclty why disabled people are getting hard out , academically and self-imposing their own wills to build their own organisation despite the lack of funds, they strive to actualise their philosophys in independent living, into the organisation called "Independent Living Inc" in America, and UK, Ken Davis did a lot of work into this.

and yes on slightly other angle, the fundamental logic of equal rights, presuppose the belief there is an expectation which representing bodys of public goods and welfare, this also implies like you said, consultation, but sadly the reality of the world is that, people in power dont not like differences, and they all confrom to the "imagnary solutions" of beauty and 'problems-free' but adding to this , the ideology of marketisation also introduced the concept which those in power and possession of resources and skills (lets say plastic surgery), they can command high premiums for anyone who wants to reap the 'benefit" the whole rest of society is the same, you got fashion, aittudes, homes, computers, entertainment, food, mobility (not just wheelchairs, but also who can go to where) is all tied up.........
im not slightly surprised that people in power just was to fuck us over rather than help us to get an even deal in life.

dreama · 12-13-2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

Oh man, this is terrifying. I am so going to let my BSL teacher know of this. If this law passes, I am so out of this country. I may not be D/deaf, but I am HOH and I'd hate to think that this could go on. This is inhumane. It looks like Hitler's getting his way, and people seem to be striving for 'perfect' children. The doctors thought my daughter might have feeding problems when she's born, and asked if we wanted to have her aborted because she 'may' have them. Sickening. (btw, she's a perfectly fine, noisy little darling

no feeding problems at all)

Why aren't we, the general population, consulted on such things?
Sheesh, I swear this country sets laws and whatnot for you to obey, but it doesn't offer you the chance to vote for or against them. Ack.

I know the feeling. I only learnt about this on a USA message board. It seems a lot of british people I spoke to don't know about this either.

charlotte1 · 12-23-2007, 05:30 AM

I live in the UK and must say Iv not heard or read anything about this, I have asked many hearing and deaf friends over the last few days and nobody knew anything about it. Dont forget anything that the UK government want to do now has to be approved by the rest of Europe so it will never happen here.

Yiffzer · 12-23-2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I just read a comment on the blog that I find absurd as well. A poster stated that the school system has failed the deaf population miserably, so a bill like this is inevitable. Eugenics to correct the problems in the educational system? OMG! It would appear that technological advances have far outgrown our intellecual capacity to use them!

um, duh? we knew that since 1982, or is this news?
while technology will continue to advance, our morals will decline as well.
pick your battles, people.

jillio · 12-23-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

um, duh? we knew that since 1982, or is this news?
while technology will continue to advance, our morals will decline as well.
pick your battles, people.

Knew what exactly since 1982?

Do you find eugenics morally acceptable?

Your post is very unlcear.

Yiffzer · 12-23-2007, 05:33 PM

oh man. i messed up. i wanted to refer to the book 1984, but i put down 1982. -_- well, if you get the reference, then yay. ;D

no, i don't have a position in eugenics so you won't have much from me.

but for those that cry "this is immoral!" should realize that with technology advancing, we will continue to lose our morals. even though this doesn't make much sense as to why, we still see it. ;D

what to do? do we limit technology growth until we develop our ethics around it? but there's always multiple views on any given thing. one may argue that a disability is a disability, nothing more. to inherit any type of disability is unfavorable. and of course, another would argue that disability provides flavor to life, also allowing us to learn invaluable social skills, etc.

all good points but whatever. i'm an advocate for limiting technology despite i'm majoring in management information systems, lulz. ;D

/offtopic

jillio · 12-23-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yiffzer

oh man. i messed up. i wanted to refer to the book 1984, but i put down 1982. -_- well, if you get the reference, then yay. ;D

no, i don't have a position in eugenics so you won't have much from me.

but for those that cry "this is immoral!" should realize that with technology advancing, we will continue to lose our morals. even though this doesn't make much sense as to why, we still see it. ;D

what to do? do we limit technology growth until we develop our ethics around it? but there's always multiple views on any given thing. one may argue that a disability is a disability, nothing more. to inherit any type of disability is unfavorable. and of course, another would argue that disability provides flavor to life, also allowing us to learn invaluable social skills, etc.

all good points but whatever. i'm an advocate for limiting technology despite i'm majoring in management information systems, lulz. ;D

/offtopic

That makes much more sense.

Aleser · 01-02-2008, 06:14 AM

Oh, how this disgusts me. Yet again, the government attempting to take the place of the Creator. How dare some random person arbitrarily point at me and tell me how I can and cannot decide to have my very own child? How dare -anyone- suggest that my child would be "preferably" -selected- as a nice and normal hearing child?

Genetic testing terrifies me- I am, by common definition, severely and multiply disabled. One day, I'm sure, people like me will be considered mere burden upon society and thrown away on the sole fact that we aren't quite "normal." Where do we draw the line? Should we prohibit ashkenazi jews from having children for fear of cystic fibrosis, tay sachs, familial deafness? How about finnish people and usher syndrome? Where do we draw the line- where does the government get off telling us what kinds of children we can have and love?

It's so very sad.

InnocentOdion · 01-07-2008, 01:07 PM

It'll end up where one who isn't 'perfect' is eliminated. Albinos will be eliminated because they have bad eyes, etc. If they aren't eliminated, I can damn well bet it'll be forced sterilization. The government are not God, and they never will be to me, hard as they try to make themselves appear as Big Brother (yes I got the ref, Yiffzer

)

Gordon Brown, I didn't vote for him. Nobody voted for him. Why am I subject to his tyrannical laws? Why did he not allow an election? That should tell people what kind of person he is. I urge anyone who is British or who has British friends, to get them to vote for someone else. Conservatives, Lib Dems, I don't know who, but I'd rather someone else than this guy who passed loads of taxes in his previous job and now couldn't give a crap about the proles.

Silentwolfdog · 01-09-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

This is always gonna be like this having deaf being treated as second class. Face it we are not wanted on this earth.

I figured that out long time ago.

Liebling:-))) · 01-14-2008, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlotte1

I live in the UK and must say Iv not heard or read anything about this, I have asked many hearing and deaf friends over the last few days and nobody knew anything about it. Dont forget anything that the UK government want to do now has to be approved by the rest of Europe so it will never happen here.

http://www.alldeaf.com/896685-post52.html

I will check with my British friends about this via msn chat.

PuyoPiyo · 01-14-2008, 09:06 AM

Hope it would NEVER pass!

I agree with others, what exactly is wrong with the deafies? They can be happy being deaf, I thought a born person is important than the money.. If they passed that, then we would never know our truly challenge in the real world because everyone is perfect, how boring is that.. *sigh*..

Buffalo · 01-14-2008, 12:50 PM

Anybody know of updated news on this???

Buffalo · 01-14-2008, 03:24 PM

I found few links that I thought you guys would want to see...

Clause 14 in International Signing: YouTube - Clause 14 in International Signing It has some ASL mixed in and I managed to glean some info. especially the link to: http://stopeugenics.org/ and it, in turn, leaded me to: Stop Eugenics Press Release, January 2008 | Stop Eugenics! where you can add your name in this link: ADD YOUR NAME! | Stop Eugenics! I have no idea when the signing the names will end.

Thought I'd like to include the Clause 14 in BSL just in case you know BSL or want to see what it looks like.

dreama · 01-16-2008, 03:35 PM

Thanks Buffalo.
I have some info on the bill although a differant aspect of it. Sorry if it's off topic. It's alarming anyway.

Quote:

An attempt to ban the creation of human-animal hybrid embryos failed
last
night when the House of Lords rejected Lord Alton's amendment to the
British government's Human Fertilisation and Embryology (HFE) Bill by
268
votes to 96. The bill allows research on hybrid embryos for 14 days
after
their creation. The Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury and Bishop of
Winchester spoke in favour of the amendment, as did Lord Tebbit. [BBC,
15
January] The group Christians Concerned for Our Nation held a
demonstration outside parliament during the debate. In his blog, SPUC's
John Smeaton today writes: "It's now all the more important that
pro-lifers contact Peers to urge them to vote against the Bill at third
reading which could be as early as the 28th of this month." [SPUC
Director
blog, 16 January]

Also during the HFE Bill debate, a government spokesperson said it
might
reconsider a proposal to allow fertility clinics to produce babies with
no
biological fathers, using cells other than eggs and sperm. This
proposal
was rejected by the House of Lords last year, following objections from
fathers' groups and religious leaders according to the Telegraph.
Baroness
Royall suggested that the plan could be reintroduced in the Human and
Fertilisation and Embryology Bill when it goes to the House of Commons
later in the year. [Telegraph, 16 January]

Liebling:-))) · 02-11-2008, 07:52 AM

Yes, I am waiting to get an answer from my British friend about this. I am hoping to get her answer tonight.

InnocentOdion · 02-14-2008, 06:40 AM

They covered this a few weeks ago on a Deaf TV programme called See Hear. It was very informative but some of the people on it (especially one of the people who supported the bill) were very offensive. She said, I quote.

"Would you want to deliberatley deprive a child of hearing Mozart? I think not."
...Mozart isn't that good that you should not allow a Deaf child the right to life. It got my back up because she was so ignorant.

jillio · 02-14-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentOdion

They covered this a few weeks ago on a Deaf TV programme called See Hear. It was very informative but some of the people on it (especially one of the people who supported the bill) were very offensive. She said, I quote.

"Would you want to deliberatley deprive a child of hearing Mozart? I think not."
...Mozart isn't that good that you should not allow a Deaf child the right to life. It got my back up because she was so ignorant.

Many hearing children are never exposed to Mozart. That was a ridiculas statement.

InnocentOdion · 02-15-2008, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Many hearing children are never exposed to Mozart. That was a ridiculas statement.

Totally. I nearly choked on my dinner as she said that.

12-03-2007, 02:50 PM	#63 (permalink)
dreama deafblind vegan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: England Posts: 1,070	This is terrible. I'm really upset about this. I will have to find what the early day motion against it is so I can write to my MP to ask them to back it. __________________ I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. http://www.fightfoca.com/

12-03-2007, 04:35 PM	#64 (permalink)
dreama deafblind vegan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: England Posts: 1,070	Does anyone know of the name of the early day motion that apposes this bill. I've just been looking for it but can't find it. Edit to say: I've found it at last. It's an EDM entitled Role of the fathers but they are aposing the bill for entirely differant reasons. It doesn't even mention the implications for the disabled at all. __________________ I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. http://www.fightfoca.com/ Last edited by dreama; 12-03-2007 at 04:53 PM.

01-02-2008, 06:14 AM	#75 (permalink)
Aleser Woosh. Yes, Woosh. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 568	Oh, how this disgusts me. Yet again, the government attempting to take the place of the Creator. How dare some random person arbitrarily point at me and tell me how I can and cannot decide to have my very own child? How dare -anyone- suggest that my child would be "preferably" -selected- as a nice and normal hearing child? Genetic testing terrifies me- I am, by common definition, severely and multiply disabled. One day, I'm sure, people like me will be considered mere burden upon society and thrown away on the sole fact that we aren't quite "normal." Where do we draw the line? Should we prohibit ashkenazi jews from having children for fear of cystic fibrosis, tay sachs, familial deafness? How about finnish people and usher syndrome? Where do we draw the line- where does the government get off telling us what kinds of children we can have and love? It's so very sad. __________________ "She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

01-14-2008, 09:06 AM	#79 (permalink)
PuyoPiyo My Property!! >:( Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Fourth Plain Village WA Posts: 5,140	Hope it would NEVER pass! I agree with others, what exactly is wrong with the deafies? They can be happy being deaf, I thought a born person is important than the money.. If they passed that, then we would never know our truly challenge in the real world because everyone is perfect, how boring is that.. sigh.. __________________

01-14-2008, 12:50 PM	#80 (permalink)
Buffalo Anobium Pertinax Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,468	Anybody know of updated news on this??? __________________ It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem. - Gilbert Chesterton

Today
Deafness	Sponsored Links __________________ This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members. Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

12-08-2007, 10:15 AM	#67 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 180	Oh man, this is terrifying. I am so going to let my BSL teacher know of this. If this law passes, I am so out of this country. I may not be D/deaf, but I am HOH and I'd hate to think that this could go on. This is inhumane. It looks like Hitler's getting his way, and people seem to be striving for 'perfect' children. The doctors thought my daughter might have feeding problems when she's born, and asked if we wanted to have her aborted because she 'may' have them. Sickening. (btw, she's a perfectly fine, noisy little darling no feeding problems at all) Why aren't we, the general population, consulted on such things? Sheesh, I swear this country sets laws and whatnot for you to obey, but it doesn't offer you the chance to vote for or against them. Ack.

12-23-2007, 05:30 AM	#70 (permalink)
charlotte1 charlotte Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: england Posts: 25	I live in the UK and must say Iv not heard or read anything about this, I have asked many hearing and deaf friends over the last few days and nobody knew anything about it. Dont forget anything that the UK government want to do now has to be approved by the rest of Europe so it will never happen here.

12-23-2007, 05:33 PM	#73 (permalink)
Yiffzer BANNED - LOL, K. Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 785	oh man. i messed up. i wanted to refer to the book 1984, but i put down 1982. -_- well, if you get the reference, then yay. ;D no, i don't have a position in eugenics so you won't have much from me. but for those that cry "this is immoral!" should realize that with technology advancing, we will continue to lose our morals. even though this doesn't make much sense as to why, we still see it. ;D what to do? do we limit technology growth until we develop our ethics around it? but there's always multiple views on any given thing. one may argue that a disability is a disability, nothing more. to inherit any type of disability is unfavorable. and of course, another would argue that disability provides flavor to life, also allowing us to learn invaluable social skills, etc. all good points but whatever. i'm an advocate for limiting technology despite i'm majoring in management information systems, lulz. ;D /offtopic

01-07-2008, 01:07 PM	#76 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 180	It'll end up where one who isn't 'perfect' is eliminated. Albinos will be eliminated because they have bad eyes, etc. If they aren't eliminated, I can damn well bet it'll be forced sterilization. The government are not God, and they never will be to me, hard as they try to make themselves appear as Big Brother (yes I got the ref, Yiffzer ) Gordon Brown, I didn't vote for him. Nobody voted for him. Why am I subject to his tyrannical laws? Why did he not allow an election? That should tell people what kind of person he is. I urge anyone who is British or who has British friends, to get them to vote for someone else. Conservatives, Lib Dems, I don't know who, but I'd rather someone else than this guy who passed loads of taxes in his previous job and now couldn't give a crap about the proles.

01-14-2008, 03:24 PM	#81 (permalink)
Buffalo Anobium Pertinax Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,468	I found few links that I thought you guys would want to see... Clause 14 in International Signing: YouTube - Clause 14 in International Signing It has some ASL mixed in and I managed to glean some info. especially the link to: http://stopeugenics.org/ and it, in turn, leaded me to: Stop Eugenics Press Release, January 2008 \| Stop Eugenics! where you can add your name in this link: ADD YOUR NAME! \| Stop Eugenics! I have no idea when the signing the names will end. Thought I'd like to include the Clause 14 in BSL just in case you know BSL or want to see what it looks like. __________________ It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem. - Gilbert Chesterton Last edited by Buffalo; 01-14-2008 at 03:53 PM.

02-11-2008, 07:52 AM	#83 (permalink)
Liebling:-))) My 3 darling princesses Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 27,021	Yes, I am waiting to get an answer from my British friend about this. I am hoping to get her answer tonight. __________________

02-14-2008, 06:40 AM	#84 (permalink)
InnocentOdion HOH and learnin' sign! Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 180	They covered this a few weeks ago on a Deaf TV programme called See Hear. It was very informative but some of the people on it (especially one of the people who supported the bill) were very offensive. She said, I quote. "Would you want to deliberatley deprive a child of hearing Mozart? I think not." ...Mozart isn't that good that you should not allow a Deaf child the right to life. It got my back up because she was so ignorant.