naisho

To be honest, the majority of the following will entitle my personal opinion instead of what is an accepted norm out there in the current state of the social world.

I feel it's fine that you can attempt to break it down. The harder part is breaking down "Hearing culture", which in itself, is rather a misnomer of sorts.
There is no universal hearing culture everyone hearing participates in. Culture is broken down by distinctive parts identifiable such as language, ethnicity, heritage, and so on.

To further exemplify this mentality, here are some examples:
- In the US, we're still held back by racial boundaries. Even if one speaks perfectly fluent english, they can still be judged by their natural skin color and this happens frequently on an everyday basis. It also occurs on a subconscious basis, if there are no racial motives involved. This further segregates any form of official "hearing culture" labeling. Take for exaple you hear someone over the phone, then decide to meet them up. After you see them, you find out they were Asian. You might think in your head, "This guy was Asian! Their english was much better than other Asians I've experienced." When this type of thinking is done, you've already participated in a form of segregation of an unofficially accepted 'culture'.

- Real ethnic cultures have differences. An African-american manager at McDonald's might not entitle the same line of thinking held by a Hispanic, or Korean manager. They can be raised in totally opposing environments, thus the roots of their culture their parents (or guardians, whomever raised them) further solidify principles they adapt to their everyday lives that may differ from another person.

- Some individuals do not have any official form of genetically (or ethnically) tied culture at all. What would be the outcome of a child born to a Jewish and Moroccan mix, in which both parents disregarded principles of their past roots to the child and raise them in a different culture? (Ie, Asian Indian, or Italian).

- What type of culture might entail for an adopted kid/foster parents whom do not regard their ethnic origins? This is sort of in line with example 3, but differs in the terms of adopted ethnicity vs genetics of the child.

After you're able to wrap your head around and aggregate what the reality for "hearing culture" really consists of, maybe you can postulate a better background to start from. This is a really complicated issue as I have been trying to tell you, you cannot just lay out as A, B, C situations because the truth to this is if you wanted to attempt that, it'd be very likely your situations would end not only from A-Z (26 examples) but maybe hundreds more, you'd have to start a long list.

To answer your questions in my version of understanding how things really work. I see it in that they are broad questions, which you can only get generic answers. It's sort of like asking everyone "What's your favorite soda?" When you should have really asked "What's your favorite orange soda?".

Q: this group of the later-deafened... it would matter when they were deafened, wouldn't it?
A: Yes, although generally accepted term to late-deafened usually means someone who has a) reached adulthood, or b) exceeded the timeline of first language acquisition. Generally, I feel it's safe to accept that anyone legal years of age (18) turning deaf after then is considered late deafened. I'm sure you'll find debate if you try to identify an earlier age for the term.

Q: I mean if someone is deafened in their teens and makes the transition, where they ever really part of the adult hearing culture? So would it have to be an adult who has deafened?
A: Oh boy, a triple-double. Again, context is important. There is no one size fits all spandex around here. Did that teen initially contract deafness before 18? Do they have unilateral or bilateral deafness? What is the accepted 'adult hearing culture' term you are identifying, as in "White non-hispanic American hearing culture", or "Vietnamese hearing culture", or "Mexican hearing culture", or "Spain hearing culture", or "Colombian hearing culture", or "Cuban hearing culture" or ?
Do you start to see how culture can actually vary between these examples? We can go on for what seems like forever until we've listed all officially recognized cultures and identified their disparities.
Fortunately, it seems for the deaf world in itself, it's rather simple. There is no officially recognized ethnicity. If they are fluent in sign, and have became accepted by their community, they are nested under "Deaf culture".

Q: And then, do those people transition into the Deaf culture? Or do they stay deaf in the hearing culture?
A: I'd say people that are accepted by the local deaf community (ie, they get their first sign name for one hurdle) have begun the initial transition into Deaf Culture. Some folks are not deaf themselves, they can be ASL interpreters, or K/CODA (Kid/Child of Deaf Adults) and still accepted by the deaf community. They may choose to live their world in deafness, or both, it's up to that individual. Some might not fully transition into Deaf culture at all.

Q: How is the relationship between the people enrooted in the Deaf culture and those 'late arrivals?'
A: Again, it depends who [which deaf community?] and where [which location?]. For the most part people are welcomed of all backgrounds, but the catcher is they have to accept Deaf culture first. Making it past that hurdle is the brunk of the work.

Deafness

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Jalestra

I actually have different ways to deal with it. (Wall of Text incoming) Also, almost all my interactions are non-hierarchical. Even those that shouldn't be, because honestly I don't do well with people who want to boss me around. Souvenirs of my childhood.

1. I don't talk to people very often at all outside the internet. Between this and the hearing loss, it's very difficult to get people to understand and meet me halfway. The deaf/hearing communication issue and my social communication issues are actually quite similar and very few people meet my communication needs. I'm willing to make the effort on my part, but they usually aren't.

2. To those who make the effort I tell them I'm "that" geek, the extremely socially awkward one who makes frequent social gaffes. I ask that they inform me if I've said something offensive so I'll know not to do that in the future. Most will, because if they are willing to put up with me to make the effort they are usually the type of people that will be happy to help me learn.

3. I tend to speak more to people on the internet. They are more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. Not all the time, but more folks will ask for clarification and tend to believe you're not TRYING to be a jerk on the internet than they will outside of it.

4. For the most part, I just don't care. I know at some level I'm too much on one side of the spectrum (emotionalism vs intellectualism), but I also believe that many people are also too much on the other side of the spectrum and some are just lazy. Many people are quick to take things personally that are never meant personally and they are so busy being offended they do not want to bother getting your side of it. It's entirely too frustrating to deal with. I also have a problem with people who refuse to see anything as other than an insult. Really? Are you that desperate for insults you're going to cling to one on the basis that I'm a social moron? More power to those folks.

5. And lastly, I try very hard to find things in which I feel similarly and apply those to other situations. Of course, it's always a bit off because my response to a feeling is not the same as others, but I DO feel things and I understand how that makes ME feel and it's somewhat easier to understand why they feel the way they do. Somewhat, not 100%, many times not even 50%. Most of the time though, I just have to continue on guesses. Like...not understanding deaf people and why there is a whole separate culture? That used to be VERY silly and ridiculous to me. I mean, I understood the concept of being around others like you, but to "invent" a whole culture based on a disability? Then I began losing my hearing and I got it. Some things cannot be quantified from an objectionable standpoint. It's not measured that way. Sometimes its sole existence is based on meeting an emotional need I just don't have and cannot understand. In that case, you just do what you are doing...ask questions, persevere until someone has the patience to deal with you, or give up. Of course, in that case it's just grasping in the dark and you have to figure out how many people you're willing to piss off to get to your goal.

As far as my parents....I was raised in an abusive home, so I honestly don't know how much of what I am is a defense mechanism and how much of it is due to being a little too intellectual for my own good and how much is something else. Both my mother and step-father were very emotional and so it could have been a defense mechanism. My biological father is also highly emotional. I'm not sure where I get it, but I'm the only person in my family to be like this so I'm figuring I got tossed some genetic dice compounded by any defense mechanisms I've built.

I'll be happy to help you in any way I can. I understand, but of course my information will be limited to hearing/hard of hearing as I've not lost all my hearing yet and even when I do it will take me some time to understand it anyhow. Of course, my experience also doesn't mean everyone had the same experience. Due to social backgrounds, personal attitude, support systems and a whole host of other things we all react differently. We also experience different things because (and I'm sure as a doctor you know this) because no one human body is exactly like another. But I'll do what I can. Also, because you seem to be further than I am on our end of the spectrum, I might actually be able to 'translate" for you! lol IM me at any time. As I am sure you experience, it's very hard to offend me since it doesn't really affect me for the most part.

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green427

Good replies from all, especially Naisho.

I am actually surprised that we've all kept this discussion very civil.....I am used to the old AD where name calling & personal insults were rampant.

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green427

That rings very true.

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teamint

I appreciate the input. There is a reason I didn't respond before. I didn't want to sound flippant. You see, I have taken them; and I have taught more than a few Disability/Sensitivity training sessions.

teamint

This is interesting. I will think more about it.

teamint

That is a very disturbing story. I am sorry you went through it. Thank you for sharing. I guess it seems to me that if you are deaf/Deaf, then you cannot hear. And maybe, depending on why you are deaf, there might be some other things (balance issues, or genetic syndromes, etc) you cannot do. But other than that, in a capability way, what's the difference? I am not trying to be flippant. I mean, I mentioned my friend who is a deaf-doctor; he's a great doctor. He's not good at hearing, because he can't. My roommate in college was blind. These days, she is an Olympian athlete and a great professor at a college. She's not good at seeing, because she can't. They are good at their jobs. I've never asked, because it seems a rather personal question, but I would be shocked to find that they are paid less for their work than their hearing peers. That seems unjust and perhaps not legal...???

teamint

Is this about the doctor thing again? Your daughter, the nurse, is she rich? God bless her, then, because I am not. Not even middle-class yet. Mostly in-debt way over my head and eating a lot more ramen noodles than I would EVER advise a patient is healthy. Please reign in your prejudices. I am trying very hard to be civil about them.

Bottesini

No. This is about wanting to be with deaf people on a deaf forum, and not watching hearing people poke and prod like we were their science experiment.

Don't worry about being civil. This is one place I am free to be myself.

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Frisky Feline

Botti is the same thing how I feel. My patience is wearing thin slowly when too many hearing people ask many same questions over and over. Sometimes i had to ignore so i can enjoy my own world, not to think what others say " oh this person is not good at hearing or seeing or working etc" again i know I am not alone that i use the improper words to say when anyone who is disabled but i dont ask them and have to read carefully before i say or say nothing. *shrugs*

I am an ASL user so i have a great childhood, great friends, and everything but of course i know i am not perfect in many ways but thats life.

teamint

What is an "AD?"
I am also very pleased. Thank you to everyone, your patience and willingness to share are very appreciated.

C.C.Sinned

All Deaf

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teamint

Naisho and Jalest;
These are very good, thoughtful, lengthy posts. I will need some time to think on them and then respond. I am not ignoring your sharing though, at all. Please do not be hurt. I've read both multiple times. I just need thinking-time. <smile>

Frisky Feline

yeah that too. Actually alldeaf is not the same as before but i do like to see is to keep alldeaf out from the superiority audists.

teamint

<sheepish grin> Sorry.... <blush> In my world "AD" is Alzheimer's Disease or autosomal dominant. These obviously did not make sense to the post.

teamint

That is kind of you, but I think I will keep trying the civil route, if it is all the same to everyone. <shrug> It is just more in line with 'being myself.' As for the hearing-person thing. I am not deaf or Deaf. The likelihood is very low that I ever am going to be. I put my hearing-identity in my personal description and am not trying to pretend to be anything but hearing.

And, (I am going to risk being misunderstood here, but please try to see this as my way of gentle teasing) I poke and prod almost everybody like they are my science experiments. Just ask my wife!

teamint

This is just a thought. I could be wrong:
Deaf people are deaf every day. Most hearing people rarely encounter the Deaf in their daily lives. I would even venture to say that the average hearing person out there never thinks about Deaf people at all, unless there is a tv show on Lifetime or something. So, when they encounter a Deaf person, it would seem logical that they would all have the same/similar first questions.

I know, for instance, that it is true from a gay perspective. When people find out that my spouse is female, there are about 5 questions that a good majority of them will ask. It is even cliche amongst other GBLTs. There is a 'straight person dance' that they do before they ask the questions. And then you KNOW what they are going to ask. Does it get tiring? Sure. But I appreciate their attempt to understand; unless I am having a crabby day <grin>. I tell them that I am a very poor spokesperson for the 'gay agenda,' because I am frankly not involved in the culture in any way. But I try to answer honestly and kindly.

And I know it is not at all the same as being Deaf. I mean, for the most part, I go through my days and very seldom do I think of myself as part of a minority. I'm just me. I suppose though, if someone couldn't hear/see/etc their very daily activities would remind them constantly that they were in a minority. I can imagine that would get tiring even MORE.

If it would please you and Botti, I can just not reply or engage in discourse with you two. I don't mind and I do not wish to add to your burdens. Tell me if that would be best and I will comply.

Bottesini

That will be great! And since I am very involved in every aspect here, I assume your complete silence will now ensue!

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green427

Being gay is a minority? Not really a good comparison, but I see where you are headed. Who is more likely to be turned down for a job, the gay hearing person or the deaf person? Most of the hearing gay people I know are very successful at what they do, they move up the corporate ladder frequently, and have a choice of announcing whether they are gay or not.

Most of us deaf people don't think about being deaf until we encounter audism, which comes in many different forms.

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Warning: Anything I post may not make any sense. All advice is for entertainment value only. Sarcasm might be present. Interpret at your own risk.

Jalestra

I think there's actually a mute button so you don't see anything they say or they see anything you say so you can converse with others without that input.

I also feel like you do, that I don't belong to any special group, and I think that makes it even easier to feel like I'm not understood at all, at any time.

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C.C.Sinned

the ignore feature give a member the option to ignore people that are annoying them. the member that is being ignored can still read everything that is being posted by the person doing the ignoring. you can still view the person you are ignoring when another member quotes them.

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teamint

Naisho;

>I feel it's fine that you can attempt to break it down. The harder part is breaking down "Hearing culture", which in itself, is rather a misnomer of sorts.

I agree completely. However, I could not figure any other way to comply with the lumping of 'hearing people' into one group. And there does seem to be a real perceived dichotomy. If we take the 'parent' post from this one, for instance: it was not titled, "Annoying ignorant people stories." So, I think that there might be a hearing-specific frustration/anger/etc. If I am wrong, please correct me, because I am making the conclusion on limited data.

> What type of culture might entail for an adopted kid/foster parents whom do not regard their ethnic origins? This is sort of in line with example 3, but differs in the terms of adopted ethnicity vs genetics of the child.

This is a big question in my house, since we plan to adopt and have no desire to limit the available pool of children by race. Even though we would make an effort to respect and educate our child on their ethnic origins, I am not sure that it could ever be the same as having a parent of those origins.

>Yes, although generally accepted term to late-deafened usually means someone who has a) reached adulthood, or b) exceeded the timeline of first language acquisition. Generally, I feel it's safe to accept that anyone legal years of age (18) turning deaf after then is considered late deafened. I'm sure you'll find debate if you try to identify an earlier age for the term.

Ah! Thank you for clarifying.

>Do you start to see how culture can actually vary between these examples? We can go on for what seems like forever until we've listed all officially recognized cultures and identified their disparities.

<sigh> Yes, I see and agree. However, as you seem to be alluding, it becomes counterproductive at some point. To some degree (perhaps a large degree), every individual within every sub-sub-subculture is going to be, well... an individual. And will react to things individually. It is MUCH easier for me to understand and predict individuals rather than groups of people. Groups and cultures are hard.... too many darn toes to step on. :-) Still, one often has to encounter cultural influences on individuals. End-of-life discussions are very different in the city I studied in, than where I work now. What family/supporters are in the delivery room is very different as well. One cannot best serve these people, without learning something about their culture - even though the next Hispanic/Black/Jew/Jain/lesbian/blind person/etc might perceive their own subgroup entirely differently.

> Again, it depends who [which deaf community?] and where [which location?]. For the most part people are welcomed of all backgrounds, but the catcher is they have to accept Deaf culture first. Making it past that hurdle is the brunk of the work.

<nodding> I think I sort of understand. But, if someone is deafened later and didn't know Deaf culture before being deafened, I imagine in might be hard to accept it if they don't know anything about it. Maybe? And does it end up being a source of conflict? Say, for example, like the black kid raised by a white mom in a white suburb who is neither "black enough" nor "white enough" to fit in?

green427

There is not a whole lot we can do. Many of us accept the low pay just to avoid being on the employer's 'shit list'.

Proving that we are underpaid is expensive and tiring.

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teamint

Yeah, it wasn't the greatest comparison. Sorry. Let's say Black or Hispanic, then. (And I am not either, so if you are and I am wrong, please jump in with corrections). I would imagine that they probably also are not forced to think of themselves AS a minority most of the time. Especially if they live in neighborhoods of mostly the same ethnicity. But if the minority status is because of something 'disabling,' like being chair-bound for instance, it seems like there has to be reminders everywhere. The curb, the checkout line, the bathroom, the park, etc. What I am trying to postulate (and it is just a theory) is that maybe the Deaf (and similarly the blind, etc) are unique amongst other minority cultures by nature of what makes them a minority. What do you think? Totally off base?

Jiro

we have 2 deaf doctor/nurse in here. they're very cordial and respectful because they don't poke/prod to find out what make them tick.

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teamint

<nodding> That makes total sense. There are a great many things an employer could do "under the radar" that could make working there... less than pleasant. I'm not sure that I know of a solution. That's AWFUL!

Lily7

Feel free to poke and prod me all you want, I've been sick for 10+ years and saw so many doctors I ran out of money and still don't have an answer.

Oh wait, we're talking about deafness. Damn! Nevermind.

My point, here, though... is that I understand the need to poke and prod... but you should be invited or ask permission first rather than jumping right in and doing it. Imagine if you were poking and prodding someone physically rather than online - would you ask their permission first, after having asked questions to get as much information as possible, or would you jump right up when they barely know you and start putting your hands all over them? If you did the latter, it would NOT go over well, would it? It would upset that person. Doing it with words on a message board may not be physical, but it has the same effect. Many members here are tired of being poked and prodded at in either manner, but there are a few of us, myself included, that haven't run out of patience yet, if you only ask first or be invited.

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green427

I think you are thinking too much into this. If your spouse eventually becomes deaf to the point where she is being treated differently, you can sit back and watch how the hearing world treats her as a minority. That should answer most of your questions.

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Grayma

Yes, I am familiar with it. I enjoy Rand's work, but I agree about its weaknesses being not enough rational people by her definition. That's not an all bad thing. Her 'rationality' led her to be quite cruel to her husband when he got dementia. She felt like he could just overcome it if only he'd pull up his socks and be a man.

teamint

Jalestra;

>I actually have different ways to deal with it. (Wall of Text incoming) Also, almost all my interactions are non-hierarchical. Even those that shouldn't be, because honestly I don't do well with people who want to boss me around. Souvenirs of my childhood.

<surprised> Wow! I find hierarchies so... comforting most of the time. Role-based interaction is much harder for me to... 'mess up.' <sheepish grin> And GOLLY does it ruffle my feathers when someone who is "supposed" to be in one role, is later encountered in another role. I have a particularly hard time, say, running into my boss at the movies. Ugh! Gives me shutters just to THINK about it. Well, you've broken theory that 'people like me' love hierarchies. I can't wait to see what else we can learn together!

>1. I don't talk to people very often at all outside the internet. Between this and the hearing loss, it's very difficult to get people to understand and meet me halfway.

This is very interesting! I think it is a bit different for me, because my spouse previously mentioned, "They would not have reacted that way if you were speaking in person." Which is usually true. I can charm 'in person' fairly well. It is all acting. In a way it is somewhat disrespectful to the other party, because I am not being genuine. I play a role. But they seem to prefer that, and it works. However, when I am trying to approach someone with genuine respect (not just that dictated by roles), I am often more likely to "be myself" because I view them as an equal. This often has the opposite of the intended effect. Which sort of happened here earlier, I think. On typed social forums, my manner of speech and thinking processes must be off-putting? But in MY head, if I used any other manner than my own, I would be demeaning my audience. Does that make sense? How have you managed to make your "internet voice" pleasantly engaging?!

>2. To those who make the effort I tell them I'm "that" geek, the extremely socially awkward one who makes frequent social gaffes.

<grin> I've definitely given that speech before. Sometimes even with the 'live long and prosper' sign. <only sort of teasing> Oh to live on Vulcan! <wistful>

>4. For the most part, I just don't care.

This is very honest and very brave of you to admit. I know, because when I admit things like this, it is not often embraced by the people around me. I have a theory (feel free to blow it out of the water) that perhaps people who are more emotionally based don't have a "neutral" place. I am neutral about a great many things. I just do not care. Its not in the same way that other people seem to use that statement. They seem to mean an active, unpleasant not-caring. That's not what I mean. That not-caring state takes much more energy for me to achieve than I think it does them. I mean neutral, no energy-required, not caring. Do you have this?

>5. And lastly, I try very hard to find things in which I feel similarly and apply those to other situations. Of course, it's always a bit off because my response to a feeling is not the same as others, but I DO feel things and I understand how that makes ME feel and it's somewhat easier to understand why they feel the way they do. Somewhat, not 100%, many times not even 50%.

<nodding> Yes! I do feel things as well, although I am pretty sure that I don't have nearly the breadth of emotional experience that others seem to. In fact, I often have to "think my way" into an emotion. Even during times when I SHOULD feel things strongly, like funerals. I have to think my way to grief. The emotion doesn't just come with the situation, like it seems to for others. Growing up, when I was interacting in a place where I did not feel COMPLETELY safe to 'be myself,' I used to try to figure out what the people around me were feeling and 'think myself' into feeling it. These days, that just takes too much energy most of the time and I just pretend instead of actually calling up the emotion.

>Sometimes its sole existence is based on meeting an emotional need I just don't have and cannot understand. In that case, you just do what you are doing...ask questions, persevere until someone has the patience to deal with you, or give up. Of course, in that case it's just grasping in the dark and you have to figure out how many people you're willing to piss off to get to your goal.

<Laughing> Well, as you know, pissing off people is just kinda how-things-go sometimes. (Okay, okay, a great deal of the time) And it is SO HARD for me to give up on things. Once I decide that I do not understand something, I HAVE to work with it until I come to a degree of understanding that I can accept. It doesn't have to be completely (I have gotten over that paradigm falsity. It was rough. But, I can now say that I will probably never understand anything COMPLETELY). If I don't do this, the not knowing "picks" at me until I actually begin to feel a sort of stress from it. Or maybe not stress, but something uncomfortable in a similar way.

You know, the "meeting an emotional need I just don't have" part... has me thinking. I don't know how to respond to that yet. I need to think some more.

>As far as my parents....

Thank you for being willing to share that. <thinking> My father is very emotional. My mother is even farther along the 'intellectual' spectrum than I am. I figured it must be genetic. But you are right, some of that could be a reaction to dealing with the emotions around. It had to be terribly confusing for you growing up!

>Also, because you seem to be further than I am on our end of the spectrum, I might actually be able to 'translate" for you! lol IM me at any time. As I am sure you experience, it's very hard to offend me since it doesn't really affect me for the most part.

<grin, genuine> Thank you!