Hearing people's view of CI - Page 5

**Cheetah** · 01-25-2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blondon704

My two cents not attempting to ruffle or anything but the miracle is that my son is alive. Hearing or not he is here.

I agree!

**shel90** · 01-25-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blondon704

My two cents not attempting to ruffle or anything but the miracle is that my son is alive. Hearing or not he is here.

That would be a miracle to me. Being able to hear or not is not a miracle. lol

deafdyke · 01-25-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Really...
So.. you don't get the significance that when some deaf person that can hear with CI, can listen to the sound a cat makes, and imitate that perfectly..

Had the sound be distorted, deformed etc.. .. wouldn't the imitation of that sound be distorted as well..??
You might argue that the distortion is replicated perfectly so that what comes out is correct... but that would bring us to "do I hear the same as another person that can hear"..
It's miles away from "kissing a friend compared to making love with a soulmate".

Again, you still don't get it. I can hear a lot of stuff too, my cat purring, water boiling, even speech (even WITHOUT my aids) That does not mean I hear them the way a hearing person hears them. If you could hear the way a CI person hears, you'd be all "THIS is how a CI person hears?" It's a GOOD mimic yes.....but it's not the way hearing people hear. It's the way a HOH person hears. HOH people (except for unilateral losses) don't hear the way a hearing person hears. They can get a pretty good idea.....but again, it's the difference between kissing a good friend on the cheek vs. making love with your soulmate is. HOH people only have a one or two dimensional idea of what sound is. Whereas hearing people have a three dimensional idea of what sound is. It's exactly like the way glasses can help a legally blind person use their residual vision,, but they will never see normally or the way a sighted person can.

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Knowledge of any kind is not required to make a decision. Experience is not required to make a decision. Research is not required to make a decision. Intelligence is not required to make a decision.

Just think how much better your chances of making good choices if you had some or all of these?

The point is discount the deaf at you and your child's peril.

The point is account the hearing at me and my child's peril.

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

True. Sociologists have found a lot of uncertainty among parents of deaf children, even after the decision was made. Just notice how perfect some parents here try to appear with their choices and how personal they take everything.

LOL... WOW...

If you could only imagine.....

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

ah! you think if we hear a sound that's different from the way a hearing person hears it, then when we mimic it, it sounds different from how a hearing person would say it?

that's where you're wrong. So wrong. You have a lot of learning to do still.

Sure... sure.... read the whole post next time...

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I was dx'd as deaf when I was 7 months old. Both of my parents come from a medical background. Yet their bias toward speech prevented them from seeing things objectively.

I don't know your history.. but aren't all parents like that.. biased towards speech. Deaf or hearing...???

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blondon704

My two cents not attempting to ruffle or anything but the miracle is that my son is alive. Hearing or not he is here.

That's worth a lot more than 2c.... You're absolutely right.!!

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Again, you still don't get it. I can hear a lot of stuff too, my cat purring, water boiling, even speech (even WITHOUT my aids) That does not mean I hear them the way a hearing person hears them. If you could hear the way a CI person hears, you'd be all "THIS is how a CI person hears?" It's a GOOD mimic yes.....but it's not the way hearing people hear. It's the way a HOH person hears. HOH people (except for unilateral losses) don't hear the way a hearing person hears. They can get a pretty good idea.....but again, it's the difference between kissing a good friend on the cheek vs. making love with your soulmate is. HOH people only have a one or two dimensional idea of what sound is. Whereas hearing people have a three dimensional idea of what sound is. It's exactly like the way glasses can help a legally blind person use their residual vision,, but they will never see normally or the way a sighted person can.

So... when presented with a deaf child, you would rather experience her hearing like "never kissing anyone - anytime", instead of giving her the possibility to "kiss a friend or the cheek" or even "kissing like making love with your soulmate"

deafdyke · 01-25-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

So... when presented with a deaf child, you would rather experience her hearing like "never kissing anyone - anytime", instead of giving her the possibility to "kiss a friend or the cheek" or even "kissing like making love with your soulmate"

No, I never said that. I support speech training, as well as audilogical intervention. I think that those are a good tool. I just don't support that being the only tool in the toolbox! I also support Sign being used as well!
Many if not most Deaf people do support spoken language, but in conjunction with Sign being used as well. The hearign world isn't perfect. Hearing schools are not well experianced in teachign dhh kids. You really are assuming that b/c your daughter is doing realtively well right now, she will continue to do well, and that she'll be able to fully and totally access the hearing world 100%. Her CI does allow SOME access to the hearing world....but it doesn't allow unfettered access. You don't understand that right now. You're like every other parent of an oral dhh kid in the early stages right now....just so bedazzled by the fact that a CI allows some access to the hearing world.
I AM HOH, and CI kids ARE HOH. CI kids are going through what we HOH kids have gone through for decades if not centuries. Hell, you know when I was your daughter's age, my parents were all bedazzled at the fact that I was doing so well. Now, they say they should have sent me to deaf school or dhh program!

drphil · 01-25-2012, 11:05 PM

Re post #117 my alleged"dislike of the Deaf".

As I have mentioned -many times- I am bilateral DEAF since December 20, 2006. I don't dislike myself because I am DEAF-why should I? That fact will never change. Easily verified-swimming/sleeping.

I have made no comment re "dislike of the Deaf" here in Alldeaf.com.

Whether other "Deaf/deaf/DEAF" persons agree with comments in part from my DEAF /Hearing impaired experiences-is another matter in the ongoing intermural exercise: oral vs cultural.I am also aware that the use/non use of Cochlear Implants do have "some impact on some people's opinions here".

I don't view Deafness as one views "religious beliefs/theology/philosophy".

flip · 01-26-2012, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach girl

True, and it works both ways. Parents who didn't implant have a very strong vested interest in believing they did the right thing, and parents who DID implant want to believe they did the right thing.

Parents are like that. Whatever decision they made, they very strongly want to believe that it was correct, regardless of which decision it was.

You can say it's like that for some parents, at least some in this thread are in danger of appearing that way.

My point was however that not all parents necessary have a strong faith in what they did, but those who claim parents are able to do "informed choices", or claim they managed to do so, rarely admit the drama most parents are caught in, with strong influences, aware or unaware. Even those who takes input from the deaf community or linquistics, are still under pressure from oralist.

In general, CI surgery teams and audiologist don't communicate well with sociologist, psychologist and linquistics and the deaf community. The result is, sadly, a major ****up in many parents thinking.

DeafCaroline · 01-26-2012, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Sure... sure.... read the whole post next time...

I did. How about you listen for a change?

**Cheetah** · 01-26-2012, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

The point is account the hearing at me and my child's peril.

That doesn't even make sense.

DeafCaroline · 01-26-2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

So... when presented with a deaf child, you would rather experience her hearing like "never kissing anyone - anytime", instead of giving her the possibility to "kiss a friend or the cheek" or even "kissing like making love with your soulmate"

lol....you know what she means but you're being difficult, you're not doing yourself or your daughter any favours by behaving like this. Shaking my head because I know this will come back to kick you in the ass one day.

**Cheetah** · 01-26-2012, 08:14 AM

Cloggy, your babbling again... it's time for your medication!

flip · 01-26-2012, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Really...
So.. you don't get the significance that when some deaf person that can hear with CI, can listen to the sound a cat makes, and imitate that perfectly..

Had the sound be distorted, deformed etc.. .. wouldn't the imitation of that sound be distorted as well..??
You might argue that the distortion is replicated perfectly so that what comes out is correct... but that would bring us to "do I hear the same as another person that can hear"..
It's miles away from "kissing a friend compared to making love with a soulmate".

Perfect hearing skills is not necessary for perfect speech skills, and perfect hearing does not guarantee proper speech. Basic speech therapist knowledge.

Learning deaf kids animal sounds has been part of speech therapy for a century, to train specific pronouncations. Dunno if your daughter is depedent on speech therapy to learn to make proper sounds, but you for sure make her appear as a future hardcore member of our cultural and ethnic community with claims like that.

CSign · 01-26-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

The maid has the advantage of not been caught in the emotional ASL vs oral drama that many parents are a part of, having bigger changes to make rational reflections.

For many parents, there isn't an "emotional ASL vs. oral drama". They understand what needs to be done and commits to it.

AlleyCat · 01-26-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

For many parents, there isn't an "emotional ASL vs. oral drama". They understand what needs to be done and commits to it.

That has got to be one of the most ignorant statements I've read in a long time. Have you not read anything on this board as to what kids face in an ASL vs. oral setting?

Adding an edit after seeing DC's post below -- I have to agree with that. So many here were raised in an environment that was not beneficial for them. How did a parent "understand" what was best for them in terms of ASL or oral? A commitment means squat if it wasn't in the best interest for the child.

DeafCaroline · 01-26-2012, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

For many parents, there isn't an "emotional ASL vs. oral drama". They understand what needs to be done and commits to it.

And what is it that they understand needs to be done?

dogmom · 01-26-2012, 11:04 AM

I agree with AC and Caroline

same as "I don't see color" -
in itself a racist statement because it negates the history in the U.S.

"....isn't 'an emotional ASL vs oral drama' " - the whole system the way it's designed was and is an ASL vs. oral and all "I'm so sorry that your child is" and all the stuff d/Deaf people on here keep repeating and repeating and people don't seem to get it....
invalidation......

DeafCaroline · 01-26-2012, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogmom

I agree with AC and Caroline

same as "I don't see color" -
in itself a racist statement because it negates the history in the U.S.

"....isn't 'an emotional ASL vs oral drama' " - the whole system the way it's designed was and is an ASL vs. oral and all "I'm so sorry that your child is" and all the stuff d/Deaf people on here keep repeating and repeating and people don't seem to get it....
invalidation......

Invalidation - that's one of Cloggy's specialties.

CSign · 01-26-2012, 11:19 AM

The "best interest of the child" is subjective.

For some parents that may mean the use of technology (HA's/Baja/CI) along with Sign language.

For others it may mean the use of technology without sign- and everything in between.

I don't appreciate my statement being labeled as ignorant, especially considering my statement was a fact. There are many parents who educate themselves and understand what their individual child needs.

For me, I understood from the start that my child needed access to sign language and I started learning right away. There was no big emotional drama- it was what it was. I had no problem
committing to learning and using sign with and around my son.

Other children may have different needs- this was what was right for my individual Child.

stephaniep21 · 01-26-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

We all have hearing family and friends - I remember when Children of a Lesser God came out, suddenly hearing people were all like "yeah, I can imagine what's it like being deaf because I went swimming underwater and couldn't hear anything."

lol. Ok.

lol wow...

messymama · 01-26-2012, 12:09 PM

Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes.

I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices.

Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy...
A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it.
But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think.

Lily7 · 01-26-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by messymama

Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes.

I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices.

Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy...
A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it.
But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think.

That was absolutely beautiful. I wish I'd had a mother like you. The bolded part is an especially good point, you were very wise to notice and use that.

**Cheetah** · 01-26-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

The "best interest of the child" is subjective.

For some parents that may mean the use of technology (HA's/Baja/CI) along with Sign language.

For others it may mean the use of technology without sign- and everything in between.

I don't appreciate my statement being labeled as ignorant, especially considering my statement was a fact. There are many parents who educate themselves and understand what their individual child needs.

For me, I understood from the start that my child needed access to sign language and I started learning right away. There was no big emotional drama- it was what it was. I had no problem
committing to learning and using sign with and around my son.

Other children may have different needs- this was what was right for my individual Child.

CSign, I have no doubt that you feel you made all the right decisions for your child. Most parents feel they made the best choice given the information they had at their disposal. I have no problem with that.

The problem I have is when parents are presented with new information that might change the way they educate or raise their child and ignore that information simply because they have already reached a decision.

I have always used regular gas in my sports car. If tomorrow I learn that the manufacturer recommends premium fuel for my car to prevent premature engine failure I should take that new information into consideration. I have an opportunity to mitigate future damage to my car by switching fuel now. But given that I never had any issues with regular fuel and the fact that I made the decision to always use the cheapest fuel on the market I am refusing to change. Despite receiving a recommendation from those most knowledgeable about my engine.

I realize that a child and a car are not the same thing. The point is if you do not take into consideration new information you are in effect short changing your child. Unless of course you have decided that the ones providing you the information are not reliable/trustworthy/honest/experienced... I admit, I'm not a medical doctor. I have no degrees to provide authority to my knowledge. And I am just one person. But when you start adding up the number of people here that are deaf and have lived with the decisions our parents made, maybe, just maybe the volume will be loud enough for even you and Cloggy to hear us.

What do you think? Are we worth listening to?

Cloggy · 01-26-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by messymama

Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes.

I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices.

Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy...
A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it.
But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think.

On all accounts... Very, very true..

Cloggy · 01-26-2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Perfect hearing skills is not necessary for perfect speech skills, and perfect hearing does not guarantee proper speech. Basic speech therapist knowledge.

Learning deaf kids animal sounds has been part of speech therapy for a century, to train specific pronouncations. Dunno if your daughter is depedent on speech therapy to learn to make proper sounds, but you for sure make her appear as a future hardcore member of our cultural and ethnic community with claims like that.

No speech therapy... she never had it...
... on the latter part... what claim was that?

CSign · 01-26-2012, 01:05 PM

Cheetah- I'm not sure why you think I don't take new information into consideration.

My belief is there is always something more to learn, and I will continue expanding on my knowledge base until the day I die. Beyond that, new information I come across is always taken into consideration.

What exactly is it that you don't think I'm "hearing"?

01-25-2012, 11:05 PM	#131 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,115	Re post #117 my alleged"dislike of the Deaf". As I have mentioned -many times- I am bilateral DEAF since December 20, 2006. I don't dislike myself because I am DEAF-why should I? That fact will never change. Easily verified-swimming/sleeping. I have made no comment re "dislike of the Deaf" here in Alldeaf.com. Whether other "Deaf/deaf/DEAF" persons agree with comments in part from my DEAF /Hearing impaired experiences-is another matter in the ongoing intermural exercise: oral vs cultural.I am also aware that the use/non use of Cochlear Implants do have "some impact on some people's opinions here". I don't view Deafness as one views "religious beliefs/theology/philosophy". Cloggy and flip like this. __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

01-26-2012, 08:14 AM	#136 (permalink)
Cheetah Cheetah Consulting-Closed Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,694	Cloggy, your babbling again... it's time for your medication! deafdyke, Buffalo, flip and 1 others like this. __________________ The Cheetah Consulting services No request too small, no fee too large! Serving the deaf world wide since yesterday. Open daily 9 ~ 5

01-26-2012, 11:04 AM	#141 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,474	I agree with AC and Caroline same as "I don't see color" - in itself a racist statement because it negates the history in the U.S. "....isn't 'an emotional ASL vs oral drama' " - the whole system the way it's designed was and is an ASL vs. oral and all "I'm so sorry that your child is" and all the stuff d/Deaf people on here keep repeating and repeating and people don't seem to get it.... invalidation...... deafdyke, deafskeptic, Bebonang and 1 others like this.

01-26-2012, 12:09 PM	#145 (permalink)
messymama Registered User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: italy Posts: 112	Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes. I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices. Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy... A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it. But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think. Cloggy, Speedy Hawk and Lily7 like this. __________________ Proud mum of two blessings: 5yo hearing girl and 3yo profoundly deaf boy

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01-26-2012, 11:19 AM	#143 (permalink)
CSign Registered User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Best Coast, USA Posts: 3,194	The "best interest of the child" is subjective. For some parents that may mean the use of technology (HA's/Baja/CI) along with Sign language. For others it may mean the use of technology without sign- and everything in between. I don't appreciate my statement being labeled as ignorant, especially considering my statement was a fact. There are many parents who educate themselves and understand what their individual child needs. For me, I understood from the start that my child needed access to sign language and I started learning right away. There was no big emotional drama- it was what it was. I had no problem committing to learning and using sign with and around my son. Other children may have different needs- this was what was right for my individual Child.

01-26-2012, 01:05 PM	#150 (permalink)
CSign Registered User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Best Coast, USA Posts: 3,194	Cheetah- I'm not sure why you think I don't take new information into consideration. My belief is there is always something more to learn, and I will continue expanding on my knowledge base until the day I die. Beyond that, new information I come across is always taken into consideration. What exactly is it that you don't think I'm "hearing"?