Hearing people's view of CI - Page 4

**shel90** · 01-24-2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

There are built in periods where kids who need/require it can be voice ON. This isn't radical voice off (absolutly no oral skills allowed)

She wins 500 points!

deafdyke · 01-25-2012, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

why the need to make reference to "Audist parents"?

I am not talking about hearing parents in general. I am talking about AUDIST parents. The ones who think that the ONLY way to improve their kid's speech is to put them in a 24/7 speech therapy session. (aka oral only)

**GrendelQ** · 01-25-2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

...Almost all students at schools for the Deaf(including signing schools) get a VERY hefty dose of speech and spoken language therapies.

I think this varies significantly from school to school, DD. At my daughter's school the focus is not on speech and spoken language therapies, but on learning and interacting with one another in ASL. Students and staff are actively not permitted to use voice for the majority of the day, doesn't matter whether they are deaf without listening aids, deaf or HOH with CIs / HAs, or hearing. If a student exhibits a preference for using spoken language and doesn't comply with the voices off requirements, he or she is transitioned to one of the many regional (oral) deaf programs nearby or into the mainstream. I don't know if you would consider that "radical", but the intention is that communication be accessible to all, that no one is excluded from learning or interacting. It's not a Total Communication program in which whatever communication method works for each individual child is utilized, it's a bi-bi program in which ASL is the primary language of instruction and interaction and (written) English is taught as a subject. There's a strong push to increase the amount of written English incorporated throughout the curriculum.

There is a very small cohort of CI-using or Hearing students separated out into an auditory access classroom for a part of each day, in which teachers and students are permitted to use both spoken and signed language, but this doesn't involve speech therapy. This handful of students are the only ones who use spoken language during a part of the school day.

flip · 01-25-2012, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

No, I don't live near DC, but in the Boston area -- not among what Flip calls "deaf freaks living out in the wild" (?!) Most people that I encounter, deaf and hearing alike, are pretty well-informed in general, just not familiar with how CIs work and what they can and can't provide. In fact, some people with older CIs themselves are unfamiliar with the newer tech.

My point was that I would not be angry or frustrated with people for not knowing how CIs work or expect that they ought to know more, and would be happy to share what I know and what we experience, both good and bad.

These are not stupid or backwards people as you seem to suggest, they just may have not had hands-on training with a CI or learned specifically how they work. Most people haven't. My pediatrician had heard of CIs, but knew very little beyond knowing that they existed. It isn't that doctor's specialty, and the dr. didn't pretend to know anything about CIs, had a ton of questions for us. I've encountered teachers of the deaf who were shocked that students could hear whispers or talking from outside the room, hadn't realized how distracting all that sound input could be, and another who was broadcasting really loudly using the FM system in a way that works great with her kids using HAs and needed extra high volume, but was distorting sound for those with CIs. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't have a CI or a child with a CI or who hasn't been formally trained in CIs to know a great deal about them, just as I don't expect the average person to know the ins and outs of a hip replacement or a pacemaker.

About 2 years ago, when a relatively large group of children with CIs were enrolled at my daughter's ASL-based school for the deaf, the school's administration felt the need to bring in experts on CIs to educate the staff -- because although they were far more informed than the average person, and all had some contact with CIs of course, they found that the staff really didn't know much about how they worked and were operating under some outdated and inaccurate info about CIs. The staff is about 45% deaf, but that doesn't mean either those who were deaf or hearing knew a whole lot about CIs -- the school's medical staff included. In fact, most didn't. Everyone learned a great deal and shared some great questions and insight. They intend to do these sessions regularly.

So you are telling us to stop to roll eyes back along with stephanie21, and seriously listen to your dull ranting about staff members, bilingual schools and campers?

It's a bit refreshing that a hearing people can roll eyes over those wild ideas many hearing people have about CI, too, you know. I never said anyone is stupid or have it backward, that's your words, and a bit insulting you know.

My advice is not to take the post from stephanie21 so personal, it just makes us roll eyes at you, too.

flip · 01-25-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

I am not talking about hearing parents in general. I am talking about AUDIST parents. The ones who think that the ONLY way to improve their kid's speech is to put them in a 24/7 speech therapy session. (aka oral only)

You don't have to go for 24 hours speech therapy to be an audist. Parents of bilingual kids can be audist as well.

**deafskeptic** · 01-25-2012, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

And Grendel, that is VERY audist thinking that only auditory-oral schools can provide good spoken language development/speech therapy.
VERY audist. Almost all students at schools for the Deaf(including signing schools) get a VERY hefty dose of speech and spoken language therapies.

Exactly. I know two DODs from VSDB who are brother and sister and they both had better speech than their Deaf dad who taught at the high school there. To my knowledge, neither of them ever went to any other school than VSDB.

CSign · 01-25-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Once one of my mother's maids told me that she thought my CI was a miracle.

My CI is just a tool and an imperfect one at that.

What makes people think that parents of deaf kids would be any better informed than my mother's maid?

When a child is diagnosed, parents receive all kinds of information. They get linked up with early intervention, which also provides information and skills to enable the child to make progress. Ideally, they go on to seek out more information- which is what I've observed more often than not. So, I'd say most parents know more about deafness than your mothers maid who had limited exposure.

dogmom · 01-25-2012, 10:02 AM

How can most parents know more about deafness if they're hearing?

drphil · 01-25-2012, 01:25 PM

Easy dogmom: read the various comments here! Also check the public library as well.

Not exactly a difficult exercise to imagine-silence-is it? At least it wasn't to me prior to becoming bilateral DEAF in 2006.

**Cheetah** · 01-25-2012, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drphil

Easy dogmom: read the various comments here! Also check the public library as well.

Not exactly a difficult exercise to imagine-silence-is it? At least it wasn't to me prior to becoming bilateral DEAF in 2006.

I'm sure there are plenty of hearing people that would have a hard time imagining pure silence.

Of course, I have no memory of having that kind of hearing... Maybe a hearing person can chime in and add their thoughts.

DeafCaroline · 01-25-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I'm sure there are plenty of hearing people that would have a hard time imagining pure silence.

Of course, I have no memory of having that kind of hearing... Maybe a hearing person can chime in and add their thoughts.

We all have hearing family and friends - I remember when Children of a Lesser God came out, suddenly hearing people were all like "yeah, I can imagine what's it like being deaf because I went swimming underwater and couldn't hear anything."

lol. Ok.

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

?........ It's a type of hearing, but it's as comparable to normal hearing as kissing a good friend on the cheek is to actually making love with your soulmate is.

interesting comparison... How did you get that one.??

When my daughter who has bilateral CI can imitate the sound of a cat... Do a perfect "miauw".. I doubt that the difference is as you explained ..

Didn't we agree somewhere that results differ. That some people have great experiences with CI and some don't?

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lissa

I got my implant, 11 years ago. I didn't get it cos I wanted to be "normal" It's just a tool to hear. Plus my CI is only on at work

so most of the time I am totally deaf even with my HA.

Just to check.. You have 1 CI, and 1 HA?

flip · 01-25-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Once one of my mother's maids told me that she thought my CI was a miracle.

My CI is just a tool and an imperfect one at that.

What makes people think that parents of deaf kids would be any better informed than my mother's maid?

The maid has the advantage of not been caught in the emotional ASL vs oral drama that many parents are a part of, having bigger changes to make rational reflections.

**Cheetah** · 01-25-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

The maid has the advantage of not been caught in the emotional ASL vs oral drama that many parents are a part of, having bigger changes to make rational reflections.

One would hope, but somehow I suspect that the maid in this situation is like a paid family member.

I think the point is, many of the deaf here in AD feel that hearing parents were not given the information we thought they most needed to hear: the experience of deaf people growing up in a hearing world.

The support we needed, the isolation we felt, the ignorance we experienced... I don't believe these issues all go away just because a child receives a CI.

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Any more ironic that someone that professes to know what is best for a child but having never experienced deafness or the challenges that go into growing up with a CI?

EDIT: this was in response to Rick48.

Do you need to experience deafness in order to make a decision for your child to hear?
You don't even need to have experience hearing for that decision. Even a deaf person could make the decision for their children to hear.
(I started a thread on deaf parents choosing CI for their children, but this thread was removed.)

Parents make the decision for their children, and whoever the parents - deaf or hearing - I will assume they will give a lot of thought to their decision....

flip · 01-25-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

interesting comparison... How did you get that one.??

When my daughter who has bilateral CI can imitate the sound of a cat... Do a perfect "miauw".. I doubt that the difference is as you explained ..

Didn't we agree somewhere that results differ. That some people have great experiences with CI and some don't?

I dunno, but I had expected a bit more from a CI success than making animal sounds.

**Cheetah** · 01-25-2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Do you need to experience deafness in order to make a decision for your child to hear?
You don't even need to have experience hearing for that decision. Even a deaf person could make the decision for their children to hear.
(I started a thread on deaf parents choosing CI for their children, but this thread was removed.)

Parents make the decision for their children, and whoever the parents - deaf or hearing - I will assume they will give a lot of thought to their decision....

Knowledge of any kind is not required to make a decision. Experience is not required to make a decision. Research is not required to make a decision. Intelligence is not required to make a decision.

Just think how much better your chances of making good choices if you had some or all of these?

The point is discount the deaf at you and your child's peril.

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Once one of my mother's maids told me that she thought my CI was a miracle.

My CI is just a tool and an imperfect one at that.

What makes people think that parents of deaf kids would be any better informed than my mother's maid?

Sure you can downplay miracles... You can look at a rainbow and see a miracle.. or just downplay the beauty and magic and analise it as the refraction it is....

For you CI might just be a tool, for her it's a miracle that a little device implanted in someones ear can help them understand sounds where before sounds were gone, or not understandable.

And to me, when I ask my daughter to make the sound of a cat, and she does that to perfection... that is one of those every-day miracles that I see..

For Lotte - my daughter - and for you it's not a miracle. It's just as it is.. but for the bystander that looks at it... it is..

**Cheetah** · 01-25-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Sure you can downplay miracles... For you it might just be a tool, for her it's a miracle that a little device implanted in someones ear can help them understand sounds where before sounds were gone, or not understandable.
And to me, when I ask my daughter to make the sound of a cat, and she does that to perfection...
that is one of those every-day miracles that I see..

For Lotte - my daughter - and for you it's not a miracle. It's just as it is.. but for the bystander that looks at it... it is..

There seems to be some confusion on a miracle. My understanding is that a miracle is something God did. And if God made someone hearing, why would they need a CI???

flip · 01-25-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

One would hope, but somehow I suspect that the maid in this situation is like a paid family member.

I think the point is, many of the deaf here in AD feel that hearing parents were not given the information we thought they most needed to hear: the experience of deaf people growing up in a hearing world.

The support we needed, the isolation we felt, the ignorance we experienced... I don't believe these issues all go away just because a child receives a CI.

True. Sociologists have found a lot of uncertainty among parents of deaf children, even after the decision was made. Just notice how perfect some parents here try to appear with their choices and how personal they take everything.

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

There seems to be some confusion on a miracle. My understanding is that a miracle is something God did. And if God made someone hearing, why would they need a CI???

No confusion.. A miracle is something that cannot be explained... Or just something beautiful that you don't have an explanation for why you perceive it as beautiful.. Or don't want an explanation..
Some people see more miracles than others...

God doesn't exist.. therefore she has nothing to do with miracles..

Cloggy · 01-25-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

I dunno, but I had expected a bit more from a CI success than making animal sounds.

Really...
So.. you don't get the significance that when some deaf person that can hear with CI, can listen to the sound a cat makes, and imitate that perfectly..

Had the sound be distorted, deformed etc.. .. wouldn't the imitation of that sound be distorted as well..??
You might argue that the distortion is replicated perfectly so that what comes out is correct... but that would bring us to "do I hear the same as another person that can hear"..
It's miles away from "kissing a friend compared to making love with a soulmate".

DeafCaroline · 01-25-2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Really...
So.. you don't get the significance that when some deaf person that can hear with CI, can listen to the sound a cat makes, and imitate that perfectly..

Had the sound be distorted, deformed etc.. .. wouldn't the imitation of that sound be distorted as well..??
You might argue that the distortion is replicated perfectly so that what comes out is correct... but that would bring us to "do I hear the same as another person that can hear"..
It's miles away from "kissing a friend compared to making love with a soulmate".

ah! you think if we hear a sound that's different from the way a hearing person hears it, then when we mimic it, it sounds different from how a hearing person would say it?

that's where you're wrong. So wrong. You have a lot of learning to do still.

**Cheetah** · 01-25-2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

No confusion.. A miracle is something that cannot be explained... Or just something beautiful that you don't have an explanation for why you perceive it as beautiful.. Or don't want an explanation..
Some people see more miracles than others...

God doesn't exist.. therefore she has nothing to do with miracles..

Weird view of miracle. To each their own I guess.

drphil · 01-25-2012, 06:47 PM

To the original question: Cochlear Implants a "miracle"? Any person with one can truthfully answer-NO. In a somewhat similar context a DEAF person utilizing a laptop to "communicate" with someone who doesn't understand ASL et al. Miracle?
Is this computer a "miracle"? Would a person from a 100 years ago-think it was?

**Bottesini** · 01-25-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drphil

To the original question: Cochlear Implants a "miracle"? Any person with one can truthfully answer-NO. In a somewhat similar context a DEAF person utilizing a laptop to "communicate" with someone who doesn't understand ASL et al. Miracle?
Is this computer a "miracle"? Would a person from a 100 years ago-think it was?

And there it is! Drphil doesn't particularly like the Deaf, but he is putting out an honest answer here as a person who has experienced long term deafness, and also years using a CI.

Beach girl · 01-25-2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

True. Sociologists have found a lot of uncertainty among parents of deaf children, even after the decision was made. Just notice how perfect some parents here try to appear with their choices and how personal they take everything.

True, and it works both ways. Parents who didn't implant have a very strong vested interest in believing they did the right thing, and parents who DID implant want to believe they did the right thing.

Parents are like that. Whatever decision they made, they very strongly want to believe that it was correct, regardless of which decision it was.

**deafskeptic** · 01-25-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

When a child is diagnosed, parents receive all kinds of information. They get linked up with early intervention, which also provides information and skills to enable the child to make progress. Ideally, they go on to seek out more information- which is what I've observed more often than not. So, I'd say most parents know more about deafness than your mothers maid who had limited exposure.

I was dx'd as deaf when I was 7 months old. Both of my parents come from a medical background. Yet their bias toward speech prevented them from seeing things objectively.

blondon704 · 01-25-2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Weird view of miracle. To each their own I guess.

My two cents not attempting to ruffle or anything but the miracle is that my son is alive. Hearing or not he is here.

01-25-2012, 10:02 AM	#98 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,472	How can most parents know more about deafness if they're hearing? deafdyke likes this.

01-25-2012, 01:25 PM	#99 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,113	Easy dogmom: read the various comments here! Also check the public library as well. Not exactly a difficult exercise to imagine-silence-is it? At least it wasn't to me prior to becoming bilateral DEAF in 2006. __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

01-25-2012, 06:47 PM	#116 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,113	To the original question: Cochlear Implants a "miracle"? Any person with one can truthfully answer-NO. In a somewhat similar context a DEAF person utilizing a laptop to "communicate" with someone who doesn't understand ASL et al. Miracle? Is this computer a "miracle"? Would a person from a 100 years ago-think it was? Bottesini and Cheetah like this. __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

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