Technological progress: better hearing than normal hearing - Page 5

jillio · 11-13-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafBadger

Prosperity is linked to productivity. If people produce things, they can trade them to others for the things they want. Today, we trade our productivity for money, which we use to trade for the things we want.

Disease affects prosperity in that it exacts a cost in productivity. A sick person cannot produce as much and contribute as much to their own prosperity. A dead person also cannot.

Some diseases are so vicious, that it requires the productive output of a whole family (or more) to treat. If it is a disease that afflicts a lot of people, then it affects the productive output of whole regions, even countries. This means there is less to spend on necessities and lifestyle.

The treatment of disease redirects the productive output to things that don't pull people out of poverty.

For example, if a family spends most of their productive output (or money) on treating disease in their family, that means that they might not be able to buy an air conditioner, a car, their own house instead of renting, better clothes, better food, etc. In this sense, disease takes away from their productive wealth and contributes to poverty.

This is how disease is a cause poverty (not the only cause). If people spend all their production on disease, there's little to nothing left to spend on the things they need or want that are markers of prosperity.

If cancer was suddenly and totally cured, forever, all those billions (trillions?) of dollars in research right now would go somewhere else. We would all experience greater prosperity because of it. There would be that much less poverty.

Part of the solution to poverty is in reducing the costs of living relative to our productivity. We don't need as much to live a good life on, if the costs are lower. Diseases are extremely expensive. Thus their impact on the lives of people in poverty is greater because they are working with a much smaller margin. But what if diseases were largely eradicated? Even people with a smaller margin could live a relatively comfortable and prosperous life, which is largely a question of lifestyle than actual numbers in the bank. Numbers in the bank matter only in proportion to what the costs of living are.

That's how I understand it anyway....

Unelss it affects it to the degree that the prosperous become poverty ridden, disease still does not create poverty. Poverty creates disease.

**DeafBadger** · 11-13-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Unelss it affects it to the degree that the prosperous become poverty ridden, disease still does not create poverty. Poverty creates disease.

If that was always the case, then Steve Jobs would not have died of cancer. He had more than enough productive output to pay for a cure. He had the best access to the very best medical care in the world. He still died of a disease.

Poverty did not cause his cancer. Prosperity did not cure his cancer.

To clarify, I did not say that disease *causes* poverty. Poverty is a complex, multifaceted problem. Disease will strike no matter the person's standard of living. What poverty affects is the degree of access to medical care, good food, and other things linked to good health. But these things will not keep disease at bay forever. Steve Jobs found that out.

jillio · 11-13-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafBadger

If that was always the case, then Steve Jobs would not have died of cancer. He had more than enough productive output to pay for a cure. He had the best access to the very best medical care in the world. He still died of a disease.

Poverty did not cause his cancer. Prosperity did not cure his cancer.

To clarify, I did not say that disease *causes* poverty. Poverty is a complex, multifaceted problem. Disease will strike no matter the person's standard of living. What poverty affects is the degree of access to medical care, good food, and other things linked to good health. But these things will not keep disease at bay forever. Steve Jobs found that out.

Fallicious comparison. No one says that wealthy people don't get sick. But poverty creates a several times greater risk for all sorts of chronic disease.

You might want to examine the areas of chronic stress in Steve Jobs life.

drphil · 11-17-2011, 12:11 PM

Isn't "disease" a condition of human existence? Are we not "born to die"? Not to be philosophical.

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Beach girl · 11-17-2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Fallicious comparison. No one says that wealthy people don't get sick. But poverty creates a several times greater risk for all sorts of chronic disease.

You might want to examine the areas of chronic stress in Steve Jobs life.

And disease, particularly endemic disease, creates a several times greater risk of poverty.

It's all a vicious circle in many respects.

jillio · 11-18-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drphil

Isn't "disease" a condition of human existence? Are we not "born to die"? Not to be philosophical.

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Not everyone dies of disease.

jillio · 11-18-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach girl

And disease, particularly endemic disease, creates a several times greater risk of poverty.

It's all a vicious circle in many respects.

It doesn't create poverty. It perpetuates that which already existed. Even the epidemiologists will disagree with you on this one.

**Bottesini** · 11-18-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It doesn't create poverty. It perpetuates that which already existed. Even the epidemiologists will disagree with you on this one.

AIDS, Other Diseases Create Poverty Trap in Africa : NPR

jillio · 11-18-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

AIDS, Other Diseases Create Poverty Trap in Africa : NPR

Creates poverty trap. The poverty was already there. That is the reason that the disease has spread as rapidly and as predominantly as it has. Once the disease process is present, there is no chance of creating conditions to lift the poverty.

People in poverty ridden conditions, here and elsewhere in the world, are more susceptible to not just contagious diseases, but systemic disease processes as well, simply by virtue of the lifestyle they must live. Once the disease process is in action, by virtue of the poverty ridden conditions, one cannot rise above the poverty ridden conditions because illness created by the poverty prevents it.

**Cheetah** · 11-18-2011, 09:32 AM

Cannot a wealthy community become so overburdened by a new disease and the cost of fighting it that the entire community become trapped in poverty?

It just seems to be very possible to be so overwhelmed with medical bills that a person or family becomes financially devastated and slips into poverty.

Hasn't both of these happened not just once but many times?

Beach girl · 11-18-2011, 11:07 AM

It's not just the medical bills (although of course those are important to individual families). It's taking large numbers of people out of what should be the most productive years of their lives. That's the big tragedy of AIDS in Africa. It's destroying a generation that would otherwise be contributing to society.

jillio · 11-18-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Cannot a wealthy community become so overburdened by a new disease and the cost of fighting it that the entire community become trapped in poverty?

It just seems to be very possible to be so overwhelmed with medical bills that a person or family becomes financially devastated and slips into poverty.

Hasn't both of these happened not just once but many times?

Not on a sociological and systematic basis. On an individual basis, yes.

dogmom · 11-18-2011, 11:35 AM

I'm thinking of collective conditions - again relating to who is empowered in society - vs. individual conditions. All of the examples given here happen, but the sociological processes around them are different

jillio · 11-18-2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogmom

I'm thinking of collective conditions - again relating to who is empowered in society - vs. individual conditions. All of the examples given here happen, but the sociological processes around them are different

Exactly. Societal poverty creates the conditions that allow disease to spread, and the segment of society that is poor suffers disproportionately from that spread, keeping them locked, generationally, in a cycle of poverty.

**deafskeptic** · 11-18-2011, 01:01 PM

I think collective is the key word here.

HH scientist · 11-18-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Cannot a wealthy community become so overburdened by a new disease and the cost of fighting it that the entire community become trapped in poverty?

It just seems to be very possible to be so overwhelmed with medical bills that a person or family becomes financially devastated and slips into poverty.

Hasn't both of these happened not just once but many times?

I don't think that any modern country ever has collapsed because of an increase in disease. Surely, it can happen at the individual level like Jillio pointed out. What happens in poor countries is that they cannot escape from poverty.

**Cheetah** · 11-18-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH scientist

I don't think that any modern country ever has collapsed because of an increase in disease. Surely, it can happen at the individual level like Jillio pointed out. What happens in poor countries is that they cannot escape from poverty.

I wasn't thinking specifically of a country. More of a village that might be struck by Malaria or Ebola or some other disease. I guess It's more likely that said village would be wiped out and would probably already be under the poverty line before the epidemic.

I am slowly starting to see Jillio's point. Though I admit, this is not an area I have much experience in.

**DeafBadger** · 11-18-2011, 03:36 PM

I didn't mean to say that disease is the sole cause of poverty. By itself, it doesn't, except perhaps on a local level. (Village, tribe, etc.)

Poverty is extremely complex. Lack of education, skills, productivity problems, food sourcing problems, technology, sources of water, sanitation, disease, lack of trading opportunities, even economic and social oppression, lack of law enforcement, lack of courts, bad laws that don't allow proper contract enforcement, political corruption, broken families, or etc, etc.

Have too much of this going on at once, and it's a hell of problem to solve.

But, I think it is important to remember that it is solvable. Heck, the rest of the world's prosperity wouldn't be where it is if it didn't solve some of their poverty problems. They've made progress over the centuries. That gives me hope that this can be figured out.

**DeafBadger** · 11-18-2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH scientist

I don't think that any modern country ever has collapsed because of an increase in disease. Surely, it can happen at the individual level like Jillio pointed out. What happens in poor countries is that they cannot escape from poverty.

Not a modern country in modern times, no. But it has happened before in the past in ancient societies or less advanced societies.

Black plague in Europe (devastated whole areas of Europe, caused massive social and political upheaval), small pox in American Indian societies, etc.

Mountain Man · 11-18-2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH scientist

Everyday is an Olympic event for me: Trying to survive in a world run by people are quite different from me. I would like to hear at least a little bit better than I do now (50% hearing in one ear only).

Seriously? You consider life that challenging simply because you can't hear? It's actually a struggle for you to even survive? Good grief. You need to have a long talk with the many happy and successful Deaf people in the world because your perspective is pretty screwed up.

**Cheetah** · 11-18-2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Seriously? You consider life that challenging simply because you can't hear? It's actually a struggle for you to even survive? Good grief. You need to have a long talk with the many happy and successful Deaf people in the world because your perspective is pretty screwed up.

Really? Who are you to judge the struggles of another? You have no idea what HH S. goes through every day. You don't put his shoes on, wear his pants, experience his life. go back to your cave if you cannot respect others. His feelings are his and his alone. you don't have the right.

posts from hell · 11-18-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Seriously? You consider life that challenging simply because you can't hear? It's actually a struggle for you to even survive? Good grief. You need to have a long talk with the many happy and successful Deaf people in the world because your perspective is pretty screwed up.

woooooo... take it easy. his perspective is that way because of the "system".... Not his fault.

But I see what you mean.

kokonut · 11-18-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Seriously? You consider life that challenging simply because you can't hear? It's actually a struggle for you to even survive? Good grief. You need to have a long talk with the many happy and successful Deaf people in the world because your perspective is pretty screwed up.

Are you hearing?

jillio · 11-18-2011, 06:12 PM

Doesn't matter.

posts from hell · 11-18-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Doesn't matter.

Yup, doesnt matter.

kokonut · 11-18-2011, 06:17 PM

Excuse me, I'm asking MM.

posts from hell · 11-18-2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Excuse me, I'm asking MM.

Why does his hearing status matter? I am asking you.

kokonut · 11-18-2011, 06:33 PM

So, MM is in fact hearing. I thought I remembered him saying that for the record he is hearing. Rather curious to put down a deaf/hh person for his/her personal feelings on his/her day to day struggle.

jillio · 11-18-2011, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

So, MM is in fact hearing. I thought I remembered him saying that for the record he is hearing. Rather curious to put down a deaf/hh person for his/her personal feelings on his/her day to day struggle.

You do it consistently, and you are a hearing wannabe.

**shel90** · 11-18-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You do it consistently, and you are a hearing wannabe.

No S******!

11-17-2011, 12:11 PM	#124 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,169	Isn't "disease" a condition of human existence? Are we not "born to die"? Not to be philosophical. Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07 __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

11-18-2011, 11:07 AM	#131 (permalink)
Beach girl Registered User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: northern Virginia in winter; NC in summer Posts: 3,760	It's not just the medical bills (although of course those are important to individual families). It's taking large numbers of people out of what should be the most productive years of their lives. That's the big tragedy of AIDS in Africa. It's destroying a generation that would otherwise be contributing to society. HH scientist likes this.

11-18-2011, 01:01 PM	#135 (permalink)
deafskeptic Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 14,518	I think collective is the key word here. jillio likes this. __________________ Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007. Activated on May 9th. Upgraded to Opus 2 9/10/2010 Think Pink. FREE JILLIO!

11-18-2011, 03:36 PM	#138 (permalink)
DeafBadger Ad Astra Per Aspera Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,430 Blog Entries: 1	I didn't mean to say that disease is the sole cause of poverty. By itself, it doesn't, except perhaps on a local level. (Village, tribe, etc.) Poverty is extremely complex. Lack of education, skills, productivity problems, food sourcing problems, technology, sources of water, sanitation, disease, lack of trading opportunities, even economic and social oppression, lack of law enforcement, lack of courts, bad laws that don't allow proper contract enforcement, political corruption, broken families, or etc, etc. Have too much of this going on at once, and it's a hell of problem to solve. But, I think it is important to remember that it is solvable. Heck, the rest of the world's prosperity wouldn't be where it is if it didn't solve some of their poverty problems. They've made progress over the centuries. That gives me hope that this can be figured out. Beach girl likes this. __________________ "Ad Astra Per Aspera" - Through hardships, to the stars. severe-to-profound in both ears, since birth. My Blog Pale Blue Dot (cc: Select Italian captions, then Translate Captions to English--English) "Labels are mentally lazy ways by which people assert they know you without knowing you." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

11-18-2011, 06:12 PM	#144 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Doesn't matter. Cheetah likes this.

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11-18-2011, 09:32 AM	#130 (permalink)
Cheetah Cheetah Consulting-Closed Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,694	Cannot a wealthy community become so overburdened by a new disease and the cost of fighting it that the entire community become trapped in poverty? It just seems to be very possible to be so overwhelmed with medical bills that a person or family becomes financially devastated and slips into poverty. Hasn't both of these happened not just once but many times?

11-18-2011, 11:35 AM	#133 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,510	I'm thinking of collective conditions - again relating to who is empowered in society - vs. individual conditions. All of the examples given here happen, but the sociological processes around them are different

11-18-2011, 06:17 PM	#146 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Excuse me, I'm asking MM. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

11-18-2011, 06:33 PM	#148 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	So, MM is in fact hearing. I thought I remembered him saying that for the record he is hearing. Rather curious to put down a deaf/hh person for his/her personal feelings on his/her day to day struggle. Deafguy25 likes this. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

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