Beowulf

I was genuinely curious. There were posters who made claims that the CI gives the same quality of sound as a hearing person's, and you sort of implied it when you said that it "activates the nerves directly." What was I supposed to make of that?

Deafness

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GrendelQ

I'm not sure what the issue is? People often claim that getting CIs can damage a deaf child's residual hearing. The post you point out includes DD's statement: "A lot of deaf kids can have really good speech perception with hearing aids...not to mention HOH kids....CIs make dhh kids functionally hoh." I think we all know that many people who are deaf do have some hearing, whether environmental sounds or as DD says, even really good speech perception.

But I don't think anyone is claiming that having some, any, level of hearing using an HA or a CI makes a deaf person into 'a hearing person' or anyone is claiming that "the CI person hears exactly as a hearing person does" or that it provides the same 'quality of sound'?

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Bottesini

Fair Jour is really offensive with the "Deaf kids can hear" over and over and over....

No person denies that CI can give hearing to people who are able to use it.

It's like she is denying that there are not going to be some additional services needed.

Deaf people do not hear like hearing people, and her mockery, and, "Let's all gang up and mock the deaf people here" attitude should not be tolerated.

It's taunting, and I strongly dissaprove.

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Daredevel7

It's only natural that many people ask hearing parents of deaf children if the implantee can hear with the CI.

Most of the time, those people are strangers who noticed the CI on the child. Or just acquaintances.

It's a very simplistic question to an overly complicated situation.

It's also natural to answer in a simple way: "Yes, she can hear with the CI."

Because if one had to choose "Yes, she can hear" vs "No, she can't hear with it.", it makes sense to go with the former because:

1) It aligns with the truth more closely.
2) It makes no sense at all if one answers "No she can't hear with it", because why the hell would the child wear it?

I would know, many people ask me the same question. I do answer "Yes, I can hear with it, but not perfectly. It is not a cure."

You'd think that would be sufficient.. but noooooo the follow up questions are even more simplistic.

"But you can hear music, right?" "Yes but I cant understand lyrics."

"But you can hear people talking, right?" "Yes but I can't understand them 100% without lipreading."

And it's easier for me to answer the questions because I experience it. What would a hearing parent say who has only a vague idea of how their child hears? Especially when the conversation with the questioner occurs in a New York minute?

AlleyCat

Really?

How do you explain your friend saying this just one or two pages back?

Seriously ... we don't just make up stuff, as much as you would like to hope so. You are just as offensive as any of those here whose posts you do not want to believe in. We're not all fluff.

GrendelQ

Wait, that's what this is about? I thought FJ's statement was made ironically given that someone had just stated that deaf kids get 90% of their learning via incidental learning in the mainstream classroom. I could be wrong, but that was my take on it.

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Bottesini

You don't really think that do you?

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Beowulf

Wow.

GrendelQ

Absolutely. I don't think that FJ thinks that most deaf kids (especially those with CIs) can absolutely hear and understand their teachers and peers. Hasn't she been fighting first for interpreters and then accommodations and placing her child in a deaf school for years? Hasn't she had endless battles with school admins who assumed exactly that, that with an HA or CI there should be no need for other accommodations for deaf kids? Hasn't she been an advocate for ASL, making it her daughter's primary language (and only language for the first 5 years)?

Just the use of "absolutely" alone should be a tip off to the irony, even if you aren't familiar with her position. Her statement was tongue in cheek. But then, that's just the way I read it. Take a look at it in context.

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AlleyCat

Then why say it? (her original post)

Cloggy

A deaf kid with a hearing aid can hear. A deaf kid with CI can hear.. Otherwise.. What's the point of having HA or CI.. Nothing offensive about that. My daughter was born deaf. She can hear. Many people on AllDeaf can hear with HA and CI. Without them they are deaf. Wheres the offensive part of it?

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Daredevel7

Are you absolutely sure about that? I reread the thread and ehhh.. it's not looking good.

P.S. I know how much it sucks when you have someone on your side spewing out comments that you don't like and you secretly hope that it's just a fluke or a joke....

Beowulf

You don't cut an infant open to wear hearing aids.

Cloggy

You're making up that she / we are saying that our children hear like children born hearing.. We state they hear. And they do.
What is so scary about a deaf child that can hear??

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Daredevel7

Not as much as offensive as much as annoying to me.

What is the purpose of a parent repeatedly simply saying "She can see" for her daughter who has tunnel vision? How does it help anyone? It doesn't.

Now if you are talking about their capabilities SPECIFICALLY in order to describe their condition. i.e. "She can see the center of her vision, so she has to move her head towards the center of the object of what she wants to see." That is a different matter.

But... I really don't understand the point of trying to be factually correct, especially when it doesn't help anything.

"Deaf people can't hear"
"OH OH No no, technically, they CAN hear, especially with CIs."

It simply gives people an illusion.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

the reason i said what i did is because people keep saying it is impossible. I was responding to a post that said that a deaf child sitting in a room where spoken language is used can not hear what is being said. That is untrue. Many deaf kids, especially those with implants can hear and understand spoken language.

they are not hearing. They do not hear everything. But speech processors and the implant are designed to process spoken language. So that is what they hear best.

Cloggy

WOW... Change of angle... And "cut the infant open".. Really drives it home for me.. Never looked at it that way..
If the child can hear with HAs then the is no need for CI.. You cannot choose one or the other..

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Daredevel7

See... told you it wasn't looking good, Grendel....

I DO agree with you, FJ, in the sense that there are definitely deaf kids who do hear and understand spoken language. But, of course, it is rarely on par with hearing people.

However, you said MOST deaf kids in the other post. Which is definitely not true. That wasn't a good thing. Just wanted to point that out, but not going to focus on it because I hate debating over words/semantics.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

my post was made in direct response to the person claiming that deaf kids can NOT hear. They said that a deaf kid in a spoken language setting would NOT be able to hear or understand their teachers and peers and that just simply is not the case today.

they are not hearing. They do not hear perfectly. ASL would be a useful language for all. Bu the fact is that spoken language is NOT inaccessible and most CI kids don't even lipread.

Jiro

really?

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faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

i said that they "absolutely CAN hear", not that they can hear absolutely everything. Of course they can't hear everything. But they can and do understand teachers and peers, to say otherwise is disingenious. Of course i am not saying that they hear perfectly, that is not what i wrote.

Daredevel7

The word "hear" implies hear perfectly.

Kinda like asking "Can you see now?" for someone trying to adjust the antenna for the TV. (Okay, Im old) You don't say "Yes, I can see!" when you BARELY can see the show through the fuzz. You wait till it's perfect or near perfect....

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

i can respectfully disagree with you on what percentage of deaf kids can understand spoken language. i tend to see the successful ones because of the programs i have chosen for my child, i admit that.

the only reason i said what i said was because the person i was responding to had JUST claimed it wasn't possible. I was reacting.
i never ever claimed that they hears like hearing kids, and i never claimed it was all. I know that kids with CIs need accomidations. They will never have typical hearing no matter how well they do with it. That is why i am not an advocate for mainstreaming ESPECIALLY without real accomidations.

GrendelQ

Well, we had a new van driver this week when Li started kindergarten -- she's had the same one for the past two years at this school, so that was a big deal . While buckling Li in, I asked about the language the other kids would be using (they were 2nd graders, both transfers from a TC school) and if the driver knew sign -- she did, a bit. And I mentioned that Li is ASL-fluent and that she also 'hears' with her CIs, and the driver could feel comfortable talking at a normal volume with her even when faced forward and out of sight.

Similarly, I'll tell people she can 'hear' with her CIs if the fact that she's deaf comes up, and they seem confused about how to or if they'll be able to communicate.

I don't think I'm building an illusion. I'm not saying 'hallelujah, she's no longer deaf! (as long as her batteries hold up)' I'm just saying that she's deaf, no sound without these tools, her CIs. She's fluent in ASL (but too rarely encounter those who are comfortable using ASL), and she can 'hear' you speaking just fine, as long as her CIs are on. I'd tend to use "she has access to sounds" with those who have a stronger grasp of deafness or hearing technology, but I'll shortcut it with most people who have no idea that a cochlear implant exists.

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faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

alright let me qualify what i mean by "a ci kid". To me that means a child with only a hearing loss, id'ed and implanted in very early childhood with appropriate follow up.

of course there are kids that fall outside that range, and those outcomes are much more varied.

but i do think the average kid receiving an implant in the last 5-!0 years and on into the future will be exactly that.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

see, i wouldn't say that in that situation either! I would say "yeah, oh wait that's better" and then finally "perfect!"

maybe i'm weird

Jiro

ah.... you THINK... so your previous post is not a fact.

btw - let's get this right. you are not clarifying. you are correcting your previous post.

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GrendelQ

OK, I think I took your post a bit differently

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faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

i agree.

when we meet someone and it comes up, i say "she's deaf" (and they look terrified usually) and then they ask "so does she sign?" and i say "yes, she does". Then they usually ask "so can she read lips at all?" and i answer "actually, she has a device implanted in her ear that helps her hear. If you speak to her normally, she should be able to understand you."

if it is more important than that, i share more.

deafbajagal

Best post ever!