jillio

Not at the age of 5. They begin to develop a personal identity in the teen years.

Let me try it this way: Labeling yourself as in deaf is a statement about WHAT you are. Labeling yourself as Deaf is a statement about WHO you are. They require very different cognitive processes and emotional maturity levels.

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

CrzyMeg

i didnt find my identity until well recently. Not all of us find it early age. Some dont find it until later.

__________________


A PROUD POLYNESIAN INDIAN

Audiofuzzy

First of all I apologize in advance if I won't make a lot of sense but it's late, I have migraine and am very sleepy - will fix it some time later if needed.

What I am exactly trying to say that a child can instinctively get
a sense of belonging to a certain group - somebody who is like
she or he deaf,

because if a child as young as 5 can clearly see
that they are at some fundamental level different than they hearing peers,
even if they are repeatedly being told that "okay, you can't hear but you are no different than everybody else",

are being mainstreamed in every way
have hearing non signing parents, grands, relatives, friends,
and yet they still strongly see herself/himself as deaf at already such
young age,

also, if despite having strong bonds with their hearing family/friends -
the child still pulls toward other deaf rather- then I think we can say it does have a sense of Deaf.

because what is a "certain group of pple" if not community,
thus a seed of culture from here?

The only catch - the child is too small to understand the implication of what does it all really mean.
But I think the vague sense of Deaf, it is here. It could be.

You make a mistake, Jillio, of being sure on a matter that can not be measured as a there is no surefire way to measure this.

After all, the only way to know for sure this is to be 5 y.o again - and it's impossible, at least as of yet.

I used to make the same assumption, that science is mighty and infallible.

The science is great, I am not saying it isn't, and yes we need to obey by it's guidelines or it will be anarchy otherwise,
but let not follow it so blindly always.

Life showed us that science is not always 100% right.

Deaf can be musicians, blind can paint, legless ski, etc.

By the same token, perhaps once in a while a 5 yo does have an instinctual sense of being Deaf, who knows...

Fuzzy

__________________
.
A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Mohandas Gandhi
.

Berry

Okay, I was raised in a theo - philosophical system that is not standard American white practice.

From an early age I was taught that Identity, simply defined as "Sense Of Self" was important as it is tied with your inner spiritual nature. That is, the stronger your sense of self, and who you are, the stronger your spiritual self.

This is one reason why the white man was considered by some "The Stealer of Souls".

The white man wanted Native Americans to merge their identities with that of a group, church, etc. To accept group beliefs, group wisdom, and believe in conformity to the truth others promulgated. For some tribes this was the exact opposite of their core beliefs.

__________________
Free Jillio!



Living life in the sandbox.

jillio

Agreed. A child does recognize sameness in others, generally based on outsie characteristics, however, which would be the same as the realization that they are deaf. "Deaf Like Me" is an excellent illustration of that occurring with a child. I know my own son had instances like that happen. But it is still just a matter of recognition of deafness, and not a personal identity of Deaf.

No, Fuzzy, it can be measured, and has been measured with specific research methods for over 100 years. Child development is a specific science. It is based on both biology and psychology. A child who does not have the brain development necessary to be able to process information at a higher level of thinking simply cannot grasp the meaning of something as complicated as a chosen ID of Deafness. Add to that their lack of life experience and psychological factors, and the chance is even slimmer. I still say that a child of 5 can recognize that they are deaf because they have been told they are deaf. They do not even recognize all of the implications of deafness at this point, let alone a personal identity of Deaf. A Latino child knows they are Latino because they have been told they are. The culture surrounds them on a daily basis, as in Deaf of Deaf. Yet they are still not capable of deciding that they will embrace that culture in their fundamental idea of who they are. At this point, they only know it as a "what", not as a "who". Incorprorating culture into your identity cannot be done without the "who".

Being drawn toward others in the same circumstances, as all human beings are, is still not an indication of the cultural identity of Deafness. It is a way to explore before deciding if that identity is who one is. We see that all the time on this forum, even from adults.

Perhaps, once in a while a fish can fly. Is it probable that it is something you will see on a daily basis, or even more than once, if that, in several lifetimes? No, it isn't. Every so often, there is a child of 5 with a genious level IQ that has indepth understanding of the Theory of Relativity, as well. Does it happen all the time? No, it does not. So that one is not even to be compared to the usual state of mind of a 5 year old, even a precocious 5 year old.

jillio

Agreed. And that is the way culture is transmitted from generation to generation. As I said in another thread on this topic, that type of transmission and identity are passed from parent and elders to child, and can be accomplished in a Deaf of Deaf environment. However, it cannot be accomplished in a Deaf of Hearing environment because historical transmission as a part of daily life is not possible. The only exception would be the Deaf of CODA child, and only when the hearing CODA is embracing the Deaf culture in their own life.

Likewise, sense of self becomes stronger and more specific as a child becomes developmentally able to understand all of the implications therein of making culture a defining part of that sense of self.

Speedy Hawk

That so similar to me with my uncle job. When I was growing up my uncle always buy me fireman stuff like towels, money bank, toys, etc, I thought he got them cos I like fireman stuff. I never knew he was fireman until last year through newspaper! Now I know why he got me so many fireman theme stuff. My parents couldn't explain to me properly cos of communication barrier.

AlleyCat

I firmly don't believe a young child can figure out a Deaf identity. That child can distinguish that they're "different" somehow, but not in a cultural "Deaf" sense. I've already said it myself, with examples, in other posts. I was probably well into my 30's before I realized it myself. Up until then, I knew I was not hearing, that I was at, the very least, deaf (note the lowercase d), communicated in sign language except for when at work (I worked -- still do) for large corporations where there's no other d/Deaf). It wasn't until several years back when I started spending lots of time at the d/Deaf club that I started to realize a difference. This was home.

CSign

Stories like that, and the one DeafSkeptic shared break my heart. It's very sad to me when parents don't take the time to include their children in what's going on around them. I think these stories are good reminders to parents who may not be consistently using sign, to remember the importance of it. Also a reminder to make a point of talking with your children, to ensure that they received the information that's being shared.

Speedy Hawk

Parents and hearing children take information for granted and think nothing of it. But us deaf people information is important to get know what going on even it is boring. It just access. We only need access to information same as hearing children.

GrendelQ

Oh yes, Fuzzy. I think preschoolers can distinguish that they are deaf vs. hearing. I see it in my daughter, who became aware of a physiological difference in hearing probably at ~3-4 and I saw similar awareness in her friends.

And I think it goes beyond just an ability to distinguish by hearing function, too. My child has, in the past year, developed an awareness of cultural difference, distinguishing herself as Deaf. One of the biggest factors at play here at this age is the obvious culturally distinguishing element: language. She's in a Deaf environment nearly 10 hours a weekday, which is likely a very different scenario from those who became aware of being Deaf much later: she is being inculcated with an awareness of that cultural difference: her role models are Deaf, the language she uses is somewhat unique to the culture, the school she attends is built around the concept that those attending are culturally alike each other, culturally distinguished from others.

I definitely see the construction of her self identity and ability to distinguish both deaf vs. hearing, and being native ASL-using Deaf vs deaf. She doesn't consider her HOH (severe - profound) grandmother Deaf, and yet she calls one of her hearing teachers Deaf and Hearing (she uses only ASL with the children, her daughter is a Deaf student at Gally, she lives in a household with multiple Deaf individuals). Regardless of whether or not they can hear, she quickly keys into who is culturally Deaf and opts to sign with those people she IDs as Deaf (even those who are CODAs, HOH or CI users whom she could speak with).

One really interesting parallel to take a look at are the many studies on developing racial identity and attitudes / awareness of race among preschool children. The timeframe mirrors what I've found with my daughter and her friends: awareness of the physical characteristics that differ and are alike, such as skin color, facial characteristics, hearing or deafness at about 3-5, followed by awareness of social constructs that differ or are alike, concepts like "White", "Black", "Deaf", which typically occur between 5-7.

Obviously, our kindergarteners aren't writing their theses on these concepts, but from the time they first recognize themselves in the mirror at ~2, they are on the path, developing a sense of identity. Developing a deaf identity isn't a static ah-hah moment, but an ongoing quest for belonging that starts with a child's first group experience, a back and forth exchange with what he is perceiving and how others are perceiving him. Exposing a child to cultures early can make it possible for him to achieve that first sense of belonging, that identification with a culture early, definitely possible at 5 years old.

__________________

Bottesini

I can clearly remember being at gatherings , at about nine years with both older Deaf people and hearing, and thinking I wasn't either one.

As a very conscious thought.

__________________

jillio

I find it odd that the Deaf generally agree regarding the development of identity issue, and state that, even though exposed to sign, etc. they did not even begin to develop a Deaf identity until adulthood. I am the expert on child development, you guys are the experts on Deaf identity. Funny how what you all relate of your own experience, and what child development teaches, is the same.

jillio

Yes, because you had not developed an identity as either one. A child at this age can identify what they are not, as it is a much easier process that possessing an identity of who one is.

An interesting note, a hearing parent raising a Deaf child in a bilingual bicultural environment rarely realizes the unspoken messages that the kids internalize from that environment. My son, until the age of 5, thought that I was deaf, as well. I always used sign with him, and he knew that people that were not "deaf", in his experience, used spoken language. Therefore, because I used ASL, he assumed that I was deaf. I saw him tell another child that he was "Deaf same mommy". I corrected him that I was not deaf, I was hearing. It was very difficult for him to grasp, because at that age, a child's knowledge of what "deaf" even means is limited to their experience. If they have never heard, telling them that they are deaf because they can't hear is not even something they can grasp fully. Imagine them trying to sort through the specifics of Cultural Deafness.

There is a very good reason that we use age appropriate language and comparisons when we explain complicated concepts to children. You would not try to explain sex to a 5 year old in the same way you would a 15 year old. There is a reason for that.

Shel and I have discussed topics like this in the past. As a M.Ed., she has studied child development and applies that knowledge to students on a daily basis. She is in agreement with me regarding the developmentally determined capabilities of a child.

jillio

Language, at this age, still only determines the presence of deafness, not of Deafness. If your child can comprehend all of the issues surrounding a chosen cultural identity, I would like to do a research project focused on these far advanced capabilities in higher reasoning. There is no other child that has ever been determined to engage in this thinking at the age of 5.

Exposure simply means that they are accepting the identity as it is told to them, not as a portion of their personal identity. A very good example is my black friend who is a therapeutic foster parent. She had a white child in her care. He would tell anyone who asked that he was "Black" at the age of 5. He could see the skin color differences between his family and himself. Yet, because his family was black, he was black as well, in his mind. The same happens with a deaf child. If the family signs exclusively with the child, and in the presence of the child, that child will assume that his family is deaf, simply because his family has told him that he is deaf. Until a child can articulate what it is that makes him a member of a culture, he or she can only use superficial criteria to determine WHAT they are. As I said prior, WHAT someone is is very different from WHO someone is.

GrendelQ

I'd never claim my 5YO understands all of the issues surrounding a chosen cultural identity. In fact, there are likely very few adults who have achieved such an enlightened state of being, and I doubt those who come close would ever claim such global understanding, they'd probably know well how limited our understanding can be.

I do claim that she can distinguish that she is deaf, as Fuzzy asked. And I also believe she has a grasp of belonging culturally to a group that is Deaf.

__________________

jillio

You did claim that in another thread, when you stated, and then argued, that she identified as Deaf. That is saying that she has chosen a cultural identity of Deaf. Perhaps you just made a mistake in defining the difference.

She has no more of a grasp of cultural identity than any other 5 year old has. That grasp is very superficial, and in most cases, innacurate.

Audiofuzzy

You are forgetting one thing, though, Jillio - my parents were not doing anything right when it comes to addressing my needs as deaf, Deaf,
HoH or whatever my hearing impairment required in terms of me as a DEAF person.

Apart from making sure everybody was notified in advance I am hearing impaired, taking me to the doctors to save whatever hearing I have left, even paying thru the nose for ear surgery which most dr insisted won't save my hearing let alone help it (indeed it didn't)
and at the age of 12 supplying me with my first HAs,
they decided from the start I will be raised as a hearing person.

I was fully immersed in a hearing world. Period.

I developed my deaf identity on my own. Also period.

If I was able to develop a deaf identity on my own in such opposite environment, and was always pulled toward other HoH and deaf persons
(I had deaf signing older brother)
chances are, a young child CAN instinctively have a sense of belonging
to a specific certain group even if such young child doesn't fully understand what it all exactly involves.
OK, maybe saying a 5 years old feel "culturally deaf" is a stretch but I think
it safe to say they have a strong SENSE of belonging to culturally Deaf -
how about that?


Lat but not least -j ust because something is declared measurable, it doesn't mean it is always
100%, ultimately, absolutely right.
But if you want to be such a a stickler for the rules, be me guest

Fuzzy

__________________
.
A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Mohandas Gandhi
.

jillio

You developed an identity in which deaf was what you are. That in no way means that you developed a Deaf identity in which Deaf is who you are.

No, a 5 year old will recognize that there are some people who, like them, wear hearing aids or use sign language. That is nothing more than a recognition of outside characteristics that are similar. That is developmentally appropriate in the same way a child will recognize that a playmate is the same sex as them, or has the same color hair as them. It is not in depth enough to broach the consideration of a cultural identification. Expecially since your deaf identity, and every deaf identity is based on what you don't have that the hearing have. A Deaf identity is not based on that. I think your mistake is being made in failing to determine the difference between labeling a characteristic of yourself and identifying yourself as something. They are not the same process, and they do not achieve the same results psychosocially for the individual. This is an excellent demonstration however, of the difference in thought processes and embraced values of the population who labels their lack of hearing as "deaf" and those that identify themselves as "Deaf".

GrendelQ

She does identify herself as Deaf. She gets it -- in a cultural sense -- that her language, her schooling, her friends, her customs distinguish her from those who are not Deaf. And she's 5, so, no, she's not evaluating and assessing her own thinking on the same level that you and I are evaluating the idea of Deaf Culture. But she's a deaf person living it. You aren't.

I hope you will stop arguing this with me from thread to thread, attempting to invalidate my child's perspective, because I'm listening to my Deaf daughter tell me what she experiences. And I value what she believes and perceives. And I do read your posts, as you know, but I don't agree that your unwillingness to open a door to my daughter trumps studies about how and when preschoolers and young children develop a sense of who they are, whether it be their race, culture, gender, etc. , which support what I'm seeing in my daughter. With your sensitivity to the issues surrounding a Deaf identity, I'm surprised you persist in being just another one of those hearing parents you always complain about, who invalidate the experiences of the Deaf and of our d/Deaf children.

__________________

jillio

Now you are contradicting yourself. She does understand all of the implications, she doesn't understand all of the implications. She does know she is different as in deaf, she grasps so much more than that as in being able to comprehend everything that is needed to adopt an identity.

Your deaf daughter tells you what she experiences as a deaf child. The mistake here is not one she is making, as I am quite sure she has never made a statement that would validate your claim that she has embraced the values and the traditions of the Deaf culture. Again, you are stating that she is Deaf, and that is not your choice to make. It is hers, and she will make it when she is developmentally capable of making such a decision. Until then, she will catagorize and explain her experiences as those of being deaf.

I'm not invalidating anyone's experience. I am sure that you believe that your child is so advanced that she understands the cultural implications of being Deaf. But your belief really has virtually nothing to do with the facts of what a 5 year old is capable of. As far as the Deaf are concerned, they are agreeing with my statement that they did not begin to develop a Deaf identity as a young child. They only understood the difference of being deaf, and that only superficially.

Again, it is the hearing that seem to disagree with me. It is the hearing, and especially those hearing who have been attempting to understand all of these issues for a very, very short period of time, that seem to be in disagreement.

So, tell us. Exactly what has your child communicated that would indicate an understanding of the cultural identity of Deaf or that she has chosen to adopt the identity of Deaf?

CSign

I do believe Fuzzy had made the statement that she began the process of identifying as Deaf at a young age, so it's not just the "hearing" that disagree with you.

jillio

Fuzzy doesn't even identify as Deaf today. You really need to get your facts straight. Fuzzy consistently used "deaf" in her posts regarding her journey.

GrendelQ

Nope. I explicitly said that she certainly isn't writing her thesis on the concept, doesn't evaluate or assess her own thinking at the level of an adult. As I said, there are very few adults who have achieved such an enlightened state of being as you've described, in terms of having a full and deep understanding of all of the implications involved in a chosen cultural identity. And yet, they do identify as Deaf. No contradiction in my words.

She has expressed a sense that she belongs with a group who use a common language, share customs, etc. -- she calls herself Deaf. I accept that. In fact, I celebrate that.

__________________

jillio

Oh, I see. Each and everytime she calls herself "deaf" she makes certain that it is known that she means with a "D". Riiiiiight.

KristinaB

CSign - let's look at it this way. I was hoh and did not really feel different until probably 10 I think I said. I knew at 7 that I was "special" but not different. Now, my daughter is hearing, she does have SNHL, but it's very mild. She has had a host of difficulties her whole life starting at birth. They are more learning and speech related. We always made a big deal out of any accomplishments she had. But, I just asked her now, and she's 17, "when did you know you were different from other kids in school?" Her response, "Not until I was in the 4th grade and changed school buildings mom. She was 11 then. My son, has a moderate/severe hearing loss, SNHL. He is 16 and he has never in his life felt different except that his asthma held him back from things, no different than when other friends were held back with their asthma.

I personally feel that sometimes, it's all in how you raise that child. If you raise them to feel that they are special and not different, they will not feel different. Now, I do realize that can be hard when we are talking hearing parents and a deaf child. Still, if those parents embrace that child and do all they can to make life, education, fun, and all challenges as normal as possible, then they will not feel "different" or feel they have a different identity than their peers. Maybe I am wrong about this. Maybe, I don't know enough. Maybe I should just drop it and leave totally.

jillio

This coincides with what the Deaf say on the topic, as well. There is a preponderance of anecdotal evidence to correlate with the scientific evidence.

GrendelQ

Yes, I think so, especially when she identifies others in the same way and they are not audiologically deaf, just culturally so (such as the teacher I described), and does not identify some people who are audiologically deaf as Deaf (such as CI user she knows who doesn't sign, or her grandmother who doesn't sign or consider herself Deaf). It IS funny.

I love that she is feeling a sense of belonging, and a corresponding welcome -- in the real world. I love that she's getting this exposure now, has been for 4 years, and won't have that feeling of 'why was I kept from this sense of belonging?' that I read from other Deaf people here. What's with your intense interest in my daughter's state of mind? Feeling bitter about mainstreaming your own child throughout what was a formative point in developing a sense of who he is? Don't beat yourself up about it, it's a process, a long complex road.

__________________

Beowulf

Grendel, as much as I admire your daughter, I seriously doubt she has the intellectual capacity to know what Deaf means. I know she is aware that she is deaf, but being Deaf implies a lot of cultural and personal experience I am sure she has not gone through yet.

jillio

My child was not mainstreamed through a formative point. He attended a Deaf bi-bi preschool from the age of 2. He was then mainstreamed for a short period of time while I took the local school district to due process and gained his placement at a Deaf school. Again, you are mistaken in your information.

I have no interest in your daughter's state of mind. My concern is the misinformation you are spreading that someone might buy into regarding the devlopmental process and what a 5 year old is capable of understanding and not understanding. You are leading people to believe that something is possible just because you are deluded into believing that your daughter, at the age of 5, posseses the thought processess and comprehension of an adult.

Your daughter is doing the same thing other deaf kids to. She sees someone signing, and she labels them deaf, even though they may be hearing. That is simply because the concept of hearing is not something she can relate to, and because she associates signing with "deaf".

All deaf kids exposed to other deaf have a sense of belonging. But it is still not a cultural identity of Deaf. You simply fail to understand the difference, or are being purposely obstinate. Perhaps that is why you are contradicting yourself and finding the need to get nasty.

Again, she distinguishes, in her communication by signing that she is referring to the capital D deaf? Or does she just use the sign for deaf?