5-Year-Old Wants Cochlear Implant for Christmas - Page 5

**shel90** · 12-18-2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

Yeah, I don't think a 5 yr old knows the implications of saying he wants to hear more....how could he/she?

apparently, I am dumb enough not to give 5 year olds credit. So you are dumb as well.

**shel90** · 12-18-2010, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If he is capable of understanding more than adults, I want to know where he is. He is a psychological and neurological anomaly.

He must be a genius phychologically...so well advanced than his age group.

**shel90** · 12-18-2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

It's probably just because they are here. I have a lot of memories of doing things like sledding, with hot chocolate after, playing chess, doing calligraphy.

I am perfectly sure they all do that and more. Here they talk about deafness. On Alldeaf.

Instead of Activities to have fun with your kid forum.

I dont see them participating in other threads other than the CI threads so that, to me, shows a lack of interest in getting to know us and exchanging stories about kids and etc. At least RD did that so I give him a lot of credit for it. I think GrendalQ did in a few other threads but it would be nice to see more of them in the non-CI related threads. Just my two cents.

**shel90** · 12-18-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylorjade.

i do lots of other things with my son other than all the hard work we put in regarding his deafness, but we're on a deaf forum, not a baking or snowman building forum?
and most of the responses that include statements about hard work are relevant to the OP so it wouldn't make sense to just chime in with "hey we built a puzzle today"
you're assuming that all we care about is "fixing" our children when i'm not sure how you would know what our priorities are.

ETA: the responses *i've seen*. i'm a pretty new member so maybe i am mistaken.

Go to the other threads like "Who got snow" or "What are you thinking about..." and etc...why not?

drphil · 12-18-2010, 11:24 PM

As for the number of deaf persons implanted at Sunnybrook/Toronto over the last 18 years-850. Advised at a recent Cochlear Implant patients meeting. They deal with 1/5 of Ontario-I understand. Another note: 60% of all referred persons are rejected for Implants-various physical problems. This excludes babies/children which are handled by Sick Kids/Toronto.
The major difference between a Hearing aid VS Cochlear Implant is an operation- installing the internal processor as well as being deaf or having a profound hearing loss.

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

drphil · 12-18-2010, 11:24 PM

As for the number of deaf persons implanted at Sunnybrook/Toronto over the last 18 years-850. Advised at a recent Cochlear Implant patients meeting. They deal with 1/5 of Ontario-I understand. Another note: 60% of all referred persons are rejected for Implants-various physical problems. This excludes babies/children which are handled by Sick Kids/Toronto.
The major difference between a Hearing aid VS Cochlear Implant is an operation- installing the internal processor as well as being deaf or having a profound hearing loss.

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

rick48 · 12-18-2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Let's see...personally know of about 35 people with one CI, ....

Only 35!!!!

This is the much ballyhooed "experience" that you have been touting for years. 35!!! That's all. That's it? That's your big "experience' You have got to be kidding us. What a joke. I have had more than 35 people with cochlear implants just in my house alone this year.

I always knew you were full of it, just didn't realize how truly out of it you really are.

BTW you have really showed your true colors today regarding cochlear implants.

ROTFLMAO!!!
Rick

**shel90** · 12-18-2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drphil

As for the number of deaf persons implanted at Sunnybrook/Toronto over the last 18 years-850. Advised at a recent Cochlear Implant patients meeting. They deal with 1/5 of Ontario-I understand. Another note: 60% of all referred persons are rejected for Implants-various physical problems. This excludes babies/children which are handled by Sick Kids/Toronto.
The major difference between a Hearing aid VS Cochlear Implant is an operation- installing the internal processor as well as being deaf or having a profound hearing loss.

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

So children who are sick are denied CIs? Just making sure I am reading you right.

rick48 · 12-18-2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylorjade.

i do lots of other things with my son other than all the hard work we put in regarding his deafness, but we're on a deaf forum, not a baking or snowman building forum?
and most of the responses that include statements about hard work are relevant to the OP so it wouldn't make sense to just chime in with "hey we built a puzzle today"
you're assuming that all we care about is "fixing" our children when i'm not sure how you would know what our priorities are.

ETA: the responses *i've seen*. i'm a pretty new member so maybe i am mistaken.

Taylorjade,

Well said! Its funny there is a PSA on the radio these days about a father and his toddler daughter in the supermarket and all the time he is talking to her about various food items while they shop. The voice over extols the virtues of talking to your children and making even everyday experiences a fun learning experience. I guess that is ok to do unless your child has a cochlear implant and then its "hyper intensive speech therapy" as one poster constantly whines.

What you are describing is how we interacted with our daughter when she was young. We talked to her about everything and as a result, today as a young adult, she talks to us about everything going on in her life.

Keep it up because more than just building language, you are building a bond and the foundation of a great relationship with your child.

Rick

purplewowies · 12-18-2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

So they can come up with that conclusion on their own without any outside influences?

IMO, he could, but he'd have to be living in a completely unbiased environment (which is pretty much impossible) and would have to be a pretty intelligent and "leader"-type of kid.

It's pretty unlikely that he is in that type of environment and is probably basing his decision/wish at least partially on others' opinions. Even if his parents or others didn't talk directly to him, he probably might've overheard/eavesdropped on their conversations and decided that it would be better for him to have two.

5 year olds know what they want short-term, but they don't forsee long-term and the implications of a big decision like that.

Honestly, if he wants one and his parents are all for it, I see no problem with getting a second one. I just don't think insurance should pay for it.

rick48 · 12-18-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

You'd get a whole lot more of that if you actually engaged in a conversation with other hearing parents like yourself rather than attacking and debating at every turn, turning any conversation in which a CI is mentioned (and even some in which it isn't) into a war about whether children should get CIs.

I baked gingerbread cookies with my daughter last night. This morning we had kung fu class together and this child I adore kicked my butt all over the gym. Then we mucked the chicken coop and played with the next door neighbor's horse. Thing is, I could write something like this with only the best intentions and someone would probably still jump in and claim that I'm suggesting that deaf without aids or CIs can't do those things. Or that by mentioning how grateful I was in the moment I found my daughter (and every moment since) which eclipses issues of hearing (or not hearing) she has or doesn't have and how much I love my daughter, I'm somehow implying that PFH doesn't love his child, as you gruesomely did yesterday.

When people do relate personal experiences regarding their children, they are immediately told that it is not about them and their child, that their child is not representative of other deaf children, and/or their personal experiences are only anecdotal and thus of no value.
Rick

lovezebras · 12-19-2010, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

So children who are sick are denied CIs? Just making sure I am reading you right.

sick kids is the name of the hospital shel

also if I may interject some input here..

actually I believe children DO know to an extent what they want...I have a 4 year old cousin and he knows what he wants and doesn't want...and i can guarantee you if he had something medical that was needed on more than one side and it was working well for him he'd for darn sure ask for another. I understand that they don't know to an extent what it does and what its for and the implications etc. But when kids are used to something and its working why wouldn't to keep up progress? Especially you're hearing? I saw a video of a 4 year old getting her hearing aids for the first time and only one was put on for the first 10 minutes and during the video she says " i love it other one and pointed to her other ear without the hearing aid" obviously this boy wants to hear out of both ears...now whether the parents said it or not or whether he heard them talking or asked him if he wanted a 2nd implant he probably DOES want another. Just because children are not adults doesn't mean they don't have brain capacity to make decisions that they think they will benefit from or not benefit from.

I don't usually like to get into these heated CI debates about children because I have my own opinions on the matter and I don't like to beat a dead horse but I have personal experience dealing with children and development including children with disabilities and ones without disabilities and I have to say MANY of them are or were very aware of what they wanted in that point of time whether it be long term or short term.
I understand that there is all this arguing about is it morally right to implant a child blah blah blah...explore other avenues...but if the child is ALREADY implanted and already ENJOYING what they hear everyday why limit the child to just one CI when they could potentially excel with 2?
I am all for exhausting other avenues before cochlear implants are visited with babies/toddlers or anyone for that matter. But if something works well why is it SO wrong for the child ( and parents) to further their development?

**shel90** · 12-19-2010, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliciaM

sick kids is the name of the hospital shel

also if I may interject some input here..

actually I believe children DO know to an extent what they want...I have a 4 year old cousin and he knows what he wants and doesn't want...and i can guarantee you if he had something medical that was needed on more than one side and it was working well for him he'd for darn sure ask for another. I understand that they don't know to an extent what it does and what its for and the implications etc. But when kids are used to something and its working why wouldn't to keep up progress? Especially you're hearing? I saw a video of a 4 year old getting her hearing aids for the first time and only one was put on for the first 10 minutes and during the video she says " i love it other one and pointed to her other ear without the hearing aid" obviously this boy wants to hear out of both ears...now whether the parents said it or not or whether he heard them talking or asked him if he wanted a 2nd implant he probably DOES want another. Just because children are not adults doesn't mean they don't have brain capacity to make decisions that they think they will benefit from or not benefit from.

I don't usually like to get into these heated CI debates about children because I have my own opinions on the matter and I don't like to beat a dead horse but I have personal experience dealing with children and development including children with disabilities and ones without disabilities and I have to say MANY of them are or were very aware of what they wanted in that point of time whether it be long term or short term.
I understand that there is all this arguing about is it morally right to implant a child blah blah blah...explore other avenues...but if the child is ALREADY implanted and already ENJOYING what they hear everyday why limit the child to just one CI when they could potentially excel with 2?
I am all for exhausting other avenues before cochlear implants are visited with babies/toddlers or anyone for that matter. But if something works well why is it SO wrong for the child ( and parents) to further their development?

How does a 5 year old child know the difference? That's the only question I have. I have had two 5 year olds and they never had to worry about how they are different from other kids. My daughter was never made to feel different because she is half Mexican and half white. Now, at 13, she is questioning it which is normal for that age. My son is language delayed but we dont give him that idea that he has issues with his language and that he is different from anyone. We let him enjoy his childhood. He is happy where he is now. If he still has the language delay issues later on, then as a teenager, he will figure that out and then I will address them with him. I never knew that I was different from my hearing peers at 5 years old until around 3rd to 4th grade. Why is a 5 year old child worrying about wanting to hear better? That is just too much of a burden, in my opinion. Children should be enjoying their childhood, not being reminded of their "disabilities". Why make children grow up so fast? Life is already hard enough as it is.

lovezebras · 12-19-2010, 12:26 AM

because it's a sad fact that even in kindergarten children see that they are different sometimes from other ppl regardless of what disability they have...so maybe this kid knows that you are spose to have two working ears and he only has one right now...i don't think it's wrong for him to want another one ..my two cents and opinion

**shel90** · 12-19-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliciaM

because it's a sad fact that even in kindergarten children see that they are different sometimes from other ppl regardless of what disability they have...so maybe this kid knows that you are spose to have two working ears and he only has one right now...i don't think it's wrong for him to want another one ..my two cents and opinion

It is not wrong that he wants two but I dont agree with that he came to that conclusion on his own like some people are saying. He was influenced somehow. At 5 years old, there is no way that he can come to that conclusion on his own. That is the whole point.

rick48 · 12-19-2010, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

It is not wrong that he wants two but I dont agree with that he came to that conclusion on his own like some people are saying. He was influenced somehow. At 5 years old, there is no way that he can come to that conclusion on his own. That is the whole point.

So if a 5 year old deaf child said that she does not want a cochlear implant that would not be a conclusion she could have reached on her own? She too would have been influenced by others? Most likely her parents, right?

deafdyke · 12-19-2010, 12:52 AM

Quote:

he voice over extols the virtues of talking to your children and making even everyday experiences a fun learning experience. I guess that is ok to do unless your child has a cochlear implant and then its "hyper intensive speech therapy" as one poster constantly whines.

Rick, FYI there is a HUGE difference between normal spoken language interaction, and hyperintense speech therapy. You are DAMN lucky your daughter responded well to simply being placed in a spoken language rich enviroment. I mean, your daughter didn't even need a placement at an oral school. All she needed was private speech therapy, and a mainstream placement. Do you know how rare that was back in the 80's and 90's? Heck Clarke and CID and other oral residental schools were BOOMING!

That is b/c there were A LOT of kids who weren't being served well in the mainstream or who did not suceed in the mainstream!
Your daughter responded the way an audilogically hoh kid would have, and suceeded with traditional "hoh interventions" That's great for her and you.........but I really think if you had experianced a more typical oral deaf experiance, you would GET what we're saying. Just b//c your daughter did OK, it doesn't mean that another kid would have!
You have NO idea how easy you had it!

Miss-Delectable · 12-19-2010, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I dont see them participating in other threads other than the CI threads so that, to me, shows a lack of interest in getting to know us and exchanging stories about kids and etc. At least RD did that so I give him a lot of credit for it. I think GrendalQ did in a few other threads but it would be nice to see more of them in the non-CI related threads. Just my two cents.

I agree

rick48 · 12-19-2010, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Rick, FYI there is a HUGE difference between normal spoken language interaction, and hyperintense speech therapy. You are DAMN lucky your daughter responded well to simply being placed in a spoken language rich enviroment. I mean, your daughter didn't even need a placement at an oral school. All she needed was private speech therapy, and a mainstream placement. Do you know how rare that was back in the 80's and 90's? Heck Clarke and CID and other oral residental schools were BOOMING!

That is b/c there were A LOT of kids who weren't being served well in the mainstream or who did not suceed in the mainstream!
Your daughter responded the way an audilogically hoh kid would have, and suceeded with traditional "hoh interventions" That's great for her and you.........but I really think if you had experianced a more typical oral deaf experiance, you would GET what we're saying. Just b//c your daughter did OK, it doesn't mean that another kid would have!
You have NO idea how easy you had it!

I try to ignore most of what you say because you are the epitome of the person who has constipation of thought but diarrhea of thought. How dare you ever state that we "have NO idea how easy [we] had it!"!

What do you think happened? We just put a cochlear implant on our daughter and suddenly she began to speak? That words and sentences and expressions of thoughts just miraculously began to pour out of her little mouth? What our child was able to accomplish--accomplishments which you and your cohorts have belittled and/or dismissed for years---were and continue to be the result of tremendous effort on the part of many people, myself, her family, her audiologist, her S&L therapists but above all my wife and my daughter.

If you think it was so "easy", it just crystallizes how little you know and further how little you understand. You are someone who simply regurgitates whatever she hears or reads from others without the slightest bit of insight and thought given to what she types.

Unlike you and your friends, such as the self proclaimed "expert" who knows a whopping 35 people with cochlear implants after nearly a quarter of a century in the deaf community, I have had the privilege and honor of meeting and knowing hundreds of individuals with cochlear implants. Adults, children, people from all walks of life and situations. I have seen the sacrifices and efforts that they and their families have made, and yes I have seen those that have not had the same results as my child has been fortunate to achieve but I have seen many who have. Too many in fact to, as you are want to do, dismiss their results as just being lucky and easy.

I thank God each and everyday for the results my daughter has been able to have with her cochlear implant but I also know that those results were not achieved through prayer alone but by hard work and effort. I have also seen over the years that many other children and adults have also been able to take advantage of the benefits a cochlear implant has to offer. Instead of constantly trying to dismiss these people why don't you try for once, to actually listen and attempt to comprehend what they and we are saying.
Rick

deafgal001 · 12-19-2010, 07:35 AM

Wirelessly posted

Are you that verbal abusive in real life?

deafgal001 · 12-19-2010, 07:44 AM

Wirelessly posted

I think the girl want a second one because she is struggling with the first one. Kinda like being on hearing aid. She is hoping having a second one would take care the problem. Someone must told her she will hear better with two and she believe it. Children have done fine with only one. I don't think she would really cared and would be happy just one.

jazzy · 12-19-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

apparently, I am dumb enough not to give 5 year olds credit. So you are dumb as well.

Or cell phones.

jazzy · 12-19-2010, 09:21 AM

Well, my cousin has one deaf ear and hear very well in other ear. She never wore a hearing aid on deaf ear. She is fine so is this child if has one CI on one ear. I do not care if child's parents buy other one for him/her but instead they want state to pay for other one then it costs taxpayer about 80,000.00 for another one. It should be answer No to second CI. Parents should buy their own $$ on their child not us taxpayers thru state funds.

**Beowulf** · 12-19-2010, 09:24 AM

I think it's comical the way the hearing parents on this board are jumping on those who say they know 35 or fewer CI users. Personally I do not know more than 35. I mean KNOW, as in being acquainted with them, their names, personalities, etc. Seems like the hearing people know more than we deaf do.

"How many people do you know?"
"Oh, millions."

FYI, by that standard, we each know thousands and thousands of CI users.

**shel90** · 12-19-2010, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I think it's comical the way the hearing parents on this board are jumping on those who say they know 35 or fewer CI users. Personally I do not know more than 35. I mean KNOW, as in being acquainted with them, their names, personalities, etc. Seems like the hearing people know more than we deaf do.

"How many people do you know?"
"Oh, millions."

FYI, by that standard, we each know thousands and thousands of CI users.

Yea, it is weird how they seem to know and associate with more deaf people than we do.

jazzy · 12-19-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliciaM

sick kids is the name of the hospital shel

also if I may interject some input here..

actually I believe children DO know to an extent what they want...I have a 4 year old cousin and he knows what he wants and doesn't want...and i can guarantee you if he had something medical that was needed on more than one side and it was working well for him he'd for darn sure ask for another. I understand that they don't know to an extent what it does and what its for and the implications etc. But when kids are used to something and its working why wouldn't to keep up progress? Especially you're hearing? I saw a video of a 4 year old getting her hearing aids for the first time and only one was put on for the first 10 minutes and during the video she says " i love it other one and pointed to her other ear without the hearing aid" obviously this boy wants to hear out of both ears...now whether the parents said it or not or whether he heard them talking or asked him if he wanted a 2nd implant he probably DOES want another. Just because children are not adults doesn't mean they don't have brain capacity to make decisions that they think they will benefit from or not benefit from.

I don't usually like to get into these heated CI debates about children because I have my own opinions on the matter and I don't like to beat a dead horse but I have personal experience dealing with children and development including children with disabilities and ones without disabilities and I have to say MANY of them are or were very aware of what they wanted in that point of time whether it be long term or short term.
I understand that there is all this arguing about is it morally right to implant a child blah blah blah...explore other avenues...but if the child is ALREADY implanted and already ENJOYING what they hear everyday why limit the child to just one CI when they could potentially excel with 2?
I am all for exhausting other avenues before cochlear implants are visited with babies/toddlers or anyone for that matter. But if something works well why is it SO wrong for the child ( and parents) to further their development?

There is nothing wrong with parents and child want to go further their development but do not ask us to pay for them. They pay their own.

rick48 · 12-19-2010, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgal001

Wirelessly posted

Are you that verbal abusive in real life?

If someone being honest and direct and pointing out the inaccuracies of another poster bothers you, then I suggest you utilize the "ignore" feature.
Rick

deafgal001 · 12-19-2010, 09:34 AM

Wirelessly posted

You come up with stuffs that I dont think other other people do ..it makes me think you say these things in real life when things don't go your way.

**Beowulf** · 12-19-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yea, it is weird how they seem to know and associate with more deaf people than we do.

Yeah. You notice Reba has not commented in these kinds of threads? I am sure she has interpreted for hundreds, if not thousands of CI users, but she isn't arrogant or stupid enough to claim to know them.

Mrs Bucket · 12-19-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Ok, my daughter and I made gingerbread houses yesterday and today we are going to the aquarium. Then we'll go Christmas shopping without Daddy so we can pick his present. In the evening we are going to her favorite restaurant because she wants to see the divers. Tomorrow we will spend three ours at church and then in the afternnon we will walk to Grandma's house and spend the evening with her cousins.

Feel better? I didn't realize that you cared about the dance class she is in or the playdates she has either. Want to hear about those too?

It is very nice to learn about your daughter besides her "famous" CIs.

You've put Miss Kat and CI together all the time and interject Miss Kat and her CIs in almost anything CI related.

12-18-2010, 11:24 PM	#125 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,108	As for the number of deaf persons implanted at Sunnybrook/Toronto over the last 18 years-850. Advised at a recent Cochlear Implant patients meeting. They deal with 1/5 of Ontario-I understand. Another note: 60% of all referred persons are rejected for Implants-various physical problems. This excludes babies/children which are handled by Sick Kids/Toronto. The major difference between a Hearing aid VS Cochlear Implant is an operation- installing the internal processor as well as being deaf or having a profound hearing loss. Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07 __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

12-18-2010, 11:24 PM	#126 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,108	As for the number of deaf persons implanted at Sunnybrook/Toronto over the last 18 years-850. Advised at a recent Cochlear Implant patients meeting. They deal with 1/5 of Ontario-I understand. Another note: 60% of all referred persons are rejected for Implants-various physical problems. This excludes babies/children which are handled by Sick Kids/Toronto. The major difference between a Hearing aid VS Cochlear Implant is an operation- installing the internal processor as well as being deaf or having a profound hearing loss. Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07 __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

12-19-2010, 09:21 AM	#143 (permalink)
jazzy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: High desert in Calif Posts: 4,208	Well, my cousin has one deaf ear and hear very well in other ear. She never wore a hearing aid on deaf ear. She is fine so is this child if has one CI on one ear. I do not care if child's parents buy other one for him/her but instead they want state to pay for other one then it costs taxpayer about 80,000.00 for another one. It should be answer No to second CI. Parents should buy their own $$ on their child not us taxpayers thru state funds. __________________

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12-19-2010, 12:26 AM	#134 (permalink)
lovezebras Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 3,951	because it's a sad fact that even in kindergarten children see that they are different sometimes from other ppl regardless of what disability they have...so maybe this kid knows that you are spose to have two working ears and he only has one right now...i don't think it's wrong for him to want another one ..my two cents and opinion

12-19-2010, 07:35 AM	#140 (permalink)
deafgal001 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,542	Wirelessly posted Are you that verbal abusive in real life?

12-19-2010, 07:44 AM	#141 (permalink)
deafgal001 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,542	Wirelessly posted I think the girl want a second one because she is struggling with the first one. Kinda like being on hearing aid. She is hoping having a second one would take care the problem. Someone must told her she will hear better with two and she believe it. Children have done fine with only one. I don't think she would really cared and would be happy just one.

12-19-2010, 09:24 AM	#144 (permalink)
Beowulf Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10,514	I think it's comical the way the hearing parents on this board are jumping on those who say they know 35 or fewer CI users. Personally I do not know more than 35. I mean KNOW, as in being acquainted with them, their names, personalities, etc. Seems like the hearing people know more than we deaf do. "How many people do you know?" "Oh, millions." FYI, by that standard, we each know thousands and thousands of CI users.

12-19-2010, 09:34 AM	#148 (permalink)
deafgal001 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,542	Wirelessly posted You come up with stuffs that I dont think other other people do ..it makes me think you say these things in real life when things don't go your way.