Cochlear Implant Patients. - Page 20

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Are you telling me that there is no pain involved? And from the perspective of a young child who does not even have the laguage skills necessary to be warned of anything to come, it is perceived as torture. As well as betrayal by the parents who are supposed to protect him or her, not hand him or her over to strangers to create pain for them.

Get out of your own house and see things through another's window. Your experience is not universal. Develop a little empathy before making your recommendations.

I never said there was no pain involved. But they give you pain medicine which especially for a child will help dramatically. As I said before I have had surgeries since was about 4. I remember none of them. I felt no pain from them. None that i remember anyways. A child gets angry and sad if they fall down you can't expect them to feel no pain, but as I said they don't remember any of it.

You get out of your house and see things through another's window. Just because you have no problem with being deaf doesn't mean that your child or another's won't have problems with it. This is a cruel world we live in. You think your child won't get made fun of because he/she is deaf? But wait they wouldn't hear it if they were being made fun of so I suppose that doesn't matter. Unless of course they get beat up. Then that might be classified as torture.

jillio · 12-29-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LinuxGold

LOL, if my intelligence ever go pass my gentials, it might become more smarter and would do things more smartly achieving objective more perfectly! *ahem* I need to shut up now.

LinuxGold · 12-29-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Can I have your phone number?

AlleyCat · 12-29-2010, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

I never said there was no pain involved. But they give you pain medicine which especially for a child will help dramatically. As I said before I have had surgeries since was about 4. I remember none of them. I felt no pain from them. None that i remember anyways. A child gets angry and sad if they fall down you can't expect them to feel no pain, but as I said they don't remember any of it.

You get out of your house and see things through another's window. Just because you have no problem with being deaf doesn't mean that your child or another's won't have problems with it. This is a cruel world we live in. You think your child won't get made fun of because he/she is deaf? But wait they wouldn't hear it if they were being made fun of so I suppose that doesn't matter. Unless of course they get beat up. Then that might be classified as torture.

Just about all of us (early-deafened, at least) have been made fun of.

We may not "hear" ourselves being made fun of, but we're very well darned aware of it. So it DOES matter.

jillio · 12-29-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

I never said there was no pain involved. But they give you pain medicine which especially for a child will help dramatically. As I said before I have had surgeries since was about 4. I remember none of them. I felt no pain from them. None that i remember anyways. A child gets angry and sad if they fall down you can't expect them to feel no pain, but as I said they don't remember any of it.

You get out of your house and see things through another's window. Just because you have no problem with being deaf doesn't mean that your child or another's won't have problems with it. This is a cruel world we live in. You think your child won't get made fun of because he/she is deaf? But wait they wouldn't hear it if they were being made fun of so I suppose that doesn't matter. Unless of course they get beat up. Then that might be classified as torture.

There is no need to medicate a child with doses of narcotics that have their own side effects and risks if you don't create pain where none is necessary.

They remember.

I am out of my house looking through the windows of my clients about 50-60 hours a week.

You think a child won't get made fun of for wearing a CI? You think a child won't get made fun of because of any numerous things? That is what kids do to each other. The way to raise a healthy child is not to insulate them from the world. It is to give them the skills and the values to maintain their identity and self esteem in spite of these things. Giving them the message that they need to be fixed only re-inforces the teasing and the bullying and destroys them from the inside out.
You continue to look at only the superficial. I hope that one day will change for you.

LoveBlue · 12-29-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Are you telling me that there is no pain involved? And from the perspective of a young child who does not even have the laguage skills necessary to be warned of anything to come, it is perceived as torture. As well as betrayal by the parents who are supposed to protect him or her, not hand him or her over to strangers to create pain for them.

Get out of your own house and see things through another's window. Your experience is not universal. Develop a little empathy before making your recommendations.

And neither is your experience universal.
Children are resilient. They bounce back from pain/illnesses a lot faster than adults and generally forget it.
You sound like you were an over-protective mom. That's your choice. But that is neither here nor there as this is a forum for Hearing Aid and/or CI users who want to talk about THEIR HAs and/or CIs.

jillio · 12-29-2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlleyCat

Just about all of us (early-deafened, at least) have been made fun of.

We may not "hear" ourselves being made fun of, but we're very well darned aware of it. So it DOES matter.

Of course it does.

jillio · 12-29-2010, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveBlue

And neither is your experience universal.
Children are resilient. They bounce back from pain/illnesses a lot faster than adults and generally forget it.
You sound like you were an over-protective mom. That's your choice. But that is neither here nor there as this is a forum for Hearing Aid and/or CI users who want to talk about THEIR HAs and/or CIs.

No, it isn't. And I never claimed that my experience was universal. However, the universality is evident in the huge number of deaf individuals who freely share their experience with me. There is a universality to the deaf experience no matter what device you choose to assist yourself. It is that universality that so many adult CI users fight against, because they fear having to accept their deafness. They see it as a negative, and do not want to actually admit that they now are a part of a world that they don't understand and have always had a negative view of.

Soooo, because children have a natural resilience it is perfectly okay to cause them unnecessary pain? And that resillience wears thin after a while. I see it every day in my contact with deaf adolescents of hearing parents.

Over protective? LOL. Boy, are you mistaken.

LoveBlue · 12-29-2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I am out of my house looking through the windows of my clients about 50-60 hours a week.

Interesting. How do you find time to come here and belittle those of us who are happy with our CIs and HAs?

jillio · 12-29-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveBlue

Interesting. How do you find time to come here and belittle those of us who are happy with our CIs and HAs?

I have time between clients and I am very efficient at managing my time.

I am not belittling anyone. That is your defensive position that causes you to see things that way, not me.

I don't see a lot of "happiness" being posted around here. Perhaps your definition of happiness is different from most. Those that are happy and well satisfied and secure with their decisions generally do not spend so much time attempting to defend them.

**Banjo** · 12-29-2010, 10:56 AM

Perhaps I should mention the fact that I am profoundly deaf. I wear only one hearing aid in my right ear. I cannot hear anything at all in my left ear, despite the fact the hearing test showed that I can hear better in that one. Go figure!

My parents started raising me with the oral-only method on the advice of the family doctor who died shortly after. They realized that it wasn't working by the time I was three. They decided to adapt the SEE method. Suddenly, everything became much easier for everyone involved. I started learning ASL in the fourth grade. Yes, I did have speech therapy for years, just in case you were wondering.

I was in a total communication program for the deaf at a public school from kindergarten to grade six. After that, I decided to attend a school for the deaf. I graduated with the highest grades in the school leading to a post-secondary scholarship awarded by the government. After I graduated from high school, I decided to enter a college. They provided interpreters. No problem. I graduated with honours.

Yep, yep.

I have a full-time employment. I own a car. I own a house. I have a wonderful wife. I enjoy my life a lot. I cherish and enjoy the gift of life that I have been given. I don't take life for granted and never will.

To bemoan the absence of the ability to hear on a daily basis is just sad and a waste of time. If you want to hear, go for it. If you feel the need to get defensive with us over the choices you make in your life, it shows that you are not fully confident in yourself. If you are confident and comfortable with the choices you have made, you would not see the need to argue with people over it. Just let it be.

You should be happy to be who you are and take pride in the choices you have made with your life.

Life is short, enjoy it while you can.

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No, it isn't. And I never claimed that my experience was universal. However, the universality is evident in the huge number of deaf individuals who freely share their experience with me. There is a universality to the deaf experience no matter what device you choose to assist yourself. It is that universality that so many adult CI users fight against, because they fear having to accept their deafness. They see it as a negative, and do not want to actually admit that they now are a part of a world that they don't understand and have always had a negative view of.

Soooo, because children have a natural resilience it is perfectly okay to cause them unnecessary pain? And that resillience wears thin after a while. I see it every day in my contact with deaf adolescents of hearing parents.

Over protective? LOL. Boy, are you mistaken.

Over protective, or under-educated? You clearly do not wear or intend to wear/have a CI, so why not leave? I did entitle this Cochlear Implant Patients after all. It is perfectly ok to cause children pain if it allows them to do more in the long run. You can't listen to music.. And as I have said they forget it..

A CI doesn't make us feel deaf. Getting one doesn't make us feel deaf. It does however make us deaf When we are not wearing it. Otherwise we are still able to hear. You seem to get told a lot about these CI's however you don't actually have one. So I consider your input irrelevant.
Also you say you see resilience wearing thin in all your adolescents. The definition of adolescent is the process of developing from a child to an adult. That generally is about ages 15-20 or so. However we are talking about implanting a child at maybe 13 months or maybe a year or two old. They won't remember any of it, unless you tell them. How much of your childhood do you remember?

jillio · 12-29-2010, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Perhaps I should mention the fact that I am profoundly deaf. I wear only one hearing aid in my right ear. I cannot hear anything at all in my left ear, despite the fact the hearing test showed that I can hear better in that one. Go figure!

My parents started raising me with the oral-only method on the advice of the family doctor who died shortly after. They realized that it wasn't working by the time I was three. They decided to adapt the SEE method. Suddenly, everything became much easier for everyone involved. I started learning ASL in the fourth grade. Yes, I did have speech therapy for years, just in case you were wondering.

I was in a total communication program for the deaf at a public school from kindergarten to grade six. After that, I decided to attend a school for the deaf. I graduated with the highest grades in the school leading to a post-secondary scholarship awarded by the government. After I graduated from high school, I decided to enter a college. They provided interpreters. No problem. I graduated with honours.

Yep, yep.

I have a full-time employment. I own a car. I own a house. I have a wonderful wife. I enjoy my life a lot. I cherish and enjoy the gift of life that I have been given. I don't take life for granted and never will.

To bemoan the absence of the ability to hear on a daily basis is just sad and a waste of time. If you want to hear, go for it. If you feel the need to get defensive with us over the choices you make in your life, it shows that you are not fully confident in yourself. If you are confident and comfortable with the choices you have made, you would not see the need to argue with people over it. Just let it be.

You should be happy to be who you are and take pride in the choices you have made with your life.

Life is short, enjoy it while you can.

Extremely well said!!

**Beowulf** · 12-29-2010, 11:03 AM

I remember my Dad's voice. We were lying on a bed and I pointed at something and asked, "Daddy, what is that?" "That's a dresser, son."
I became deaf at age two, so yeah, kids remember.

LinuxGold · 12-29-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Perhaps I should mention the fact that I am profoundly deaf. I wear only one hearing aid in my right ear. I cannot hear anything at all in my left ear, despite the fact the hearing test showed that I can hear better in that one. Go figure!

My parents started raising me with the oral-only method on the advice of the family doctor who died shortly after. They realized that it wasn't working by the time I was three. They decided to adapt the SEE method. Suddenly, everything became much easier for everyone involved. I started learning ASL in the fourth grade. Yes, I did have speech therapy for years, just in case you were wondering.

I was in a total communication program for the deaf at a public school from kindergarten to grade six. After that, I decided to attend a school for the deaf. I graduated with the highest grades in the school leading to a post-secondary scholarship awarded by the government. After I graduated from high school, I decided to enter a college. They provided interpreters. No problem. I graduated with honours.

Yep, yep.

I have a full-time employment. I own a car. I own a house. I have a wonderful wife. I enjoy my life a lot. I cherish and enjoy the gift of life that I have been given. I don't take life for granted and never will.

To bemoan the absence of the ability to hear on a daily basis is just sad and a waste of time. If you want to hear, go for it. If you feel the need to get defensive with us over the choices you make in your life, it shows that you are not fully confident in yourself. If you are confident and comfortable with the choices you have made, you would not see the need to argue with people over it. Just let it be.

You should be happy to be who you are and take pride in the choices you have made with your life.

Life is short, enjoy it while you can.

I had similar life as yours. I also had 3 deans list and a presidential award when I attended college.

I felt like a normal person, except to hear, functioning perfectly normal, dealing with whatever life throws at me.

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 11:08 AM

You remember moments but the pain goes away fairly quickly and besides you only feel pain for about the first 3-5 days. And its not that bad if you take the medicine they give you..

And to jillio Narcotics aren't bad when they aren't abused. If you take it as prescribed and no more then no harm done. Also I consider it a drug not a narcotic. Even if it is a narcotic that makes it sound illegal. it isn't illegal when its prescribed..

Deaffy · 12-29-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

over protective, or under-educated? You clearly do not wear or intend to wear/have a ci, so why not leave? I did entitle this cochlear implant patients after all. It is perfectly ok to cause children pain if it allows them to do more in the long run. You can't listen to music.. And as i have said they forget it..

A ci doesn't make us feel deaf. Getting one doesn't make us feel deaf. It does however make us deaf when we are not wearing it. otherwise we are still able to hear. You seem to get told a lot about these ci's however you don't actually have one. So i consider your input irrelevant.
Also you say you see resilience wearing thin in all your adolescents. The definition of adolescent is the process of developing from a child to an adult. That generally is about ages 15-20 or so. However we are talking about implanting a child at maybe 13 months or maybe a year or two old. They won't remember any of it, unless you tell them. How much of your childhood do you remember?

+1

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Perhaps I should mention the fact that I am profoundly deaf. I wear only one hearing aid in my right ear. I cannot hear anything at all in my left ear, despite the fact the hearing test showed that I can hear better in that one. Go figure!

My parents started raising me with the oral-only method on the advice of the family doctor who died shortly after. They realized that it wasn't working by the time I was three. They decided to adapt the SEE method. Suddenly, everything became much easier for everyone involved. I started learning ASL in the fourth grade. Yes, I did have speech therapy for years, just in case you were wondering.

I was in a total communication program for the deaf at a public school from kindergarten to grade six. After that, I decided to attend a school for the deaf. I graduated with the highest grades in the school leading to a post-secondary scholarship awarded by the government. After I graduated from high school, I decided to enter a college. They provided interpreters. No problem. I graduated with honours.

Yep, yep.

I have a full-time employment. I own a car. I own a house. I have a wonderful wife. I enjoy my life a lot. I cherish and enjoy the gift of life that I have been given. I don't take life for granted and never will.

To bemoan the absence of the ability to hear on a daily basis is just sad and a waste of time. If you want to hear, go for it. If you feel the need to get defensive with us over the choices you make in your life, it shows that you are not fully confident in yourself. If you are confident and comfortable with the choices you have made, you would not see the need to argue with people over it. Just let it be.

You should be happy to be who you are and take pride in the choices you have made with your life.

Life is short, enjoy it while you can.

You guys came in here to a thread titled Cochlear Implant Patients and are trying to discourage it even though it is clear that i'm going through with it and have already had the surgery. We aren't getting defensive over the choices we make in our lives, and we are fully confident. We are just trying to keep and preserve the live that we have and are used to.

And we are not intentionally arguing. As I said you guys came in here.

Deaffy · 12-29-2010, 11:14 AM

Yep a title stating for PAITENT'S and yet those who have not gone through the process come and spew their drudge and try to get those who made the choice to use a device that WORKS face it CI's are here to stay like it or not!

posts from hell · 12-29-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

You guys came in here to a thread titled Cochlear Implant Patients and are trying to discourage it even though it is clear that i'm going through with it and have already had the surgery. We aren't getting defensive over the choices we make in our lives, and we are fully confident. We are just trying to keep and preserve the live that we have and are used to.

And we are not intentionally arguing. As I said you guys came in here.

Not discouraging it. I'm actually awaiting to see how satisfied you are with hearing after the implantation and see how it works with your career.

Maybe that is when "reality" will sink in.

posts from hell · 12-29-2010, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaffy

Yep a title stating for PAITENT'S and yet those who have not gone through the process come and spew their drudge and try to get those who made the choice to use a device that WORKS face it CI's are here to stay like it or not!

Dude, you have been more nitpicky in the last few days, you alright? Sure there is nothing in your life that is bothering you?

Frisky Feline · 12-29-2010, 11:20 AM

so far i have seen no one mentioned if ci is bad. They were only stating that they feel perfectly fine without relying on the form of making sounds as well. Only if someone mentioned how much silent it was without relying on the form of making sounds. nothing else.

Deaffy · 12-29-2010, 11:21 AM

Sorry PFH,

Im just pissed off at some of the crap I have been reading on here and am quite frankly tired of seeing people tell those of us who have gone through the process of a CI that we are wrong or done something wrong that is destroying deaf culture. I for one would never be a part of such a culture if this is how they treat other's that are like themself.

**Banjo** · 12-29-2010, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

You guys came in here to a thread titled Cochlear Implant Patients and are trying to discourage it even though it is clear that i'm going through with it and have already had the surgery. We aren't getting defensive over the choices we make in our lives, and we are fully confident. We are just trying to keep and preserve the live that we have and are used to.

And we are not intentionally arguing. As I said you guys came in here.

Please point out where I made an attempt to discourage you or anyone else from getting a cochlear implant. There is no need to put words into my mouth and yes, I do not appreciate it either.

It's not wise to lump all of us into one category. We (including you) are all individuals and offer different viewpoints to the threads here at AllDeaf. We just have to agree to disagree. That's what I always do here.

The thing about life is, it never stays the same. It never does. You cannot preserve your life as it is. It's always changing. You just have to adapt to it and make some changes to go with it as well. My life is radically different now compared to the life I had twenty years ago.

However, I can say without hesitation that I am a very happy person. Why? Because I chose to be.

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Please point out where I made an attempt to discourage you or anyone else from getting a cochlear implant. There is no need to put words into my mouth and yes, I do not appreciate it either.

It's not wise to lump all of us into one category. We (including you) are all individuals and offer different viewpoints to the threads here at AllDeaf. We just have to agree to disagree. That's what I always do here.

The thing about life is, it never stays the same. It never does. You cannot preserve your life as it is. It's always changing. You just have to adapt to it and make some changes to go with it as well. My life is radically different now compared to the life I had twenty years ago.

However, I can say without hesitation that I am a very happy person. Why? Because I chose to be.

In general, I feel like your bashing on this forum, but nowhere near as much as jillio. I actually think you may have so intelligence to you, you seem to actually put thought behind your responses instead of just babbling. I never said life stays the same, although I am happy. I think I had more fun when i could listen to music though..

**Banjo** · 12-29-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

In general, I feel like your bashing on this forum, but nowhere near as much as jillio. I actually think you may have so intelligence to you, you seem to actually put thought behind your responses instead of just babbling. I never said life stays the same, although I am happy. I think I had more fun when i could listen to music though..

Wow, just wow.

Talk about being so insecure that you have to belittle my intelligence. Thank you for proving me right.

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

Not discouraging it. I'm actually awaiting to see how satisfied you are with hearing after the implantation and see how it works with your career.

Maybe that is when "reality" will sink in.

I'll be very satisfied with being able to hear again. I already know it's not going to be as good as my old hearing, I could hear up to 17000 hertz and now i'm limited to only 8000 hertz. However living with a family of hearing people, it makes it hard to communicate when i can't tell if they are talking to me or someone in the other room, Also i never know when someone in the other room is talking..

It will work out just fine for my career, as I have been promised to work hearing or not. If i can't do my normal job I will be running a camera, which is kinda ironic because thats how i lost my hearing in the first place. But whats to lose? My hearing? I already lost that.

I am in reality, and the reality is that your apparently in hell.. And last time I checked the devil never had anything good to say!

zebadee2010 · 12-29-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Wow, just wow.

Talk about being so insecure that you have to belittle my intelligence. Thank you for proving me right.

-1 for gloating..

LinuxGold · 12-29-2010, 11:38 AM

There are NO identical snowflakes in the world, why are we arguing?

If one snowflake exist, then let it exist, it will not work for others.

**Banjo** · 12-29-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebadee2010

-1 for gloating..

*shrugs*

12-29-2010, 11:14 AM	#589 (permalink)
Deaffy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ohio Posts: 592	Yep a title stating for PAITENT'S and yet those who have not gone through the process come and spew their drudge and try to get those who made the choice to use a device that WORKS face it CI's are here to stay like it or not! __________________ Experience is the best education one can ever have. RIGHT EAR Implanted 7-16-10 Activated 8-10-10 Nucleus 5 LEFT EAR Unaided deaf.

12-29-2010, 11:21 AM	#593 (permalink)
Deaffy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ohio Posts: 592	Sorry PFH, Im just pissed off at some of the crap I have been reading on here and am quite frankly tired of seeing people tell those of us who have gone through the process of a CI that we are wrong or done something wrong that is destroying deaf culture. I for one would never be a part of such a culture if this is how they treat other's that are like themself. __________________ Experience is the best education one can ever have. RIGHT EAR Implanted 7-16-10 Activated 8-10-10 Nucleus 5 LEFT EAR Unaided deaf.

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12-29-2010, 10:56 AM	#581 (permalink)
Banjo Expelled Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11,650	Perhaps I should mention the fact that I am profoundly deaf. I wear only one hearing aid in my right ear. I cannot hear anything at all in my left ear, despite the fact the hearing test showed that I can hear better in that one. Go figure! My parents started raising me with the oral-only method on the advice of the family doctor who died shortly after. They realized that it wasn't working by the time I was three. They decided to adapt the SEE method. Suddenly, everything became much easier for everyone involved. I started learning ASL in the fourth grade. Yes, I did have speech therapy for years, just in case you were wondering. I was in a total communication program for the deaf at a public school from kindergarten to grade six. After that, I decided to attend a school for the deaf. I graduated with the highest grades in the school leading to a post-secondary scholarship awarded by the government. After I graduated from high school, I decided to enter a college. They provided interpreters. No problem. I graduated with honours. Yep, yep. I have a full-time employment. I own a car. I own a house. I have a wonderful wife. I enjoy my life a lot. I cherish and enjoy the gift of life that I have been given. I don't take life for granted and never will. To bemoan the absence of the ability to hear on a daily basis is just sad and a waste of time. If you want to hear, go for it. If you feel the need to get defensive with us over the choices you make in your life, it shows that you are not fully confident in yourself. If you are confident and comfortable with the choices you have made, you would not see the need to argue with people over it. Just let it be. You should be happy to be who you are and take pride in the choices you have made with your life. Life is short, enjoy it while you can.

12-29-2010, 11:03 AM	#584 (permalink)
Beowulf Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10,514	I remember my Dad's voice. We were lying on a bed and I pointed at something and asked, "Daddy, what is that?" "That's a dresser, son." I became deaf at age two, so yeah, kids remember.

12-29-2010, 11:08 AM	#586 (permalink)
zebadee2010 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Small Town Friendly, NC Posts: 345	You remember moments but the pain goes away fairly quickly and besides you only feel pain for about the first 3-5 days. And its not that bad if you take the medicine they give you.. And to jillio Narcotics aren't bad when they aren't abused. If you take it as prescribed and no more then no harm done. Also I consider it a drug not a narcotic. Even if it is a narcotic that makes it sound illegal. it isn't illegal when its prescribed..

12-29-2010, 11:20 AM	#592 (permalink)
Frisky Feline Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20,215	so far i have seen no one mentioned if ci is bad. They were only stating that they feel perfectly fine without relying on the form of making sounds as well. Only if someone mentioned how much silent it was without relying on the form of making sounds. nothing else.

12-29-2010, 11:38 AM	#599 (permalink)
LinuxGold Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Elkton, MD Posts: 2,463	There are NO identical snowflakes in the world, why are we arguing? If one snowflake exist, then let it exist, it will not work for others.