Lies about CI's - Page 25

**shel90** · 11-21-2010, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Hawk

English isn't Deaf children natural language since they can't hear and have to be taught. That the point of speech therapy, AVT, etc. If English was Deaf children natural language then they shouldn't need all that help.

Also hearing baby learn to hear and listen while they still inside their mother tummy (Saw programme about it on TV), hearing baby would know which voice is their mother before they are born and their father too if he is involved enough.

Deaf babies use their hands and pointing naturally so that why sign language is their natural language, and they don't need be taught unless they are in hearing family doesn't know sign (or don't want sign for whatever the reason). Deaf children with Deaf parents pick up sign language like hearing children with hearing parents.

yeppers

**shel90** · 11-21-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

However it is always easier to teach English when a deaf child has a rich language base such as ASL. Because I can draw from ASL to teach English, and that's always a plus. The kid has vocabulary!

A kid who comes to me with NO language base whatsoever...I take extra vitamins when I teach him. Because it's going to take everything I have to try to get him to catch up.

That's why I strongly support the use of both for all deaf children to reduce those kinds of risks of no language base.

**GrendelQ** · 11-21-2010, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Hawk

English isn't Deaf children natural language since they can't hear and have to be taught. That the point of speech therapy, AVT, etc. If English was Deaf children natural language then they shouldn't need all that help.
...

Deaf children with Deaf parents pick up sign language like hearing children with hearing parents.

Yes, Deaf children with Deaf parents are immersed in ASL from the start and do wonderfully! But deaf children of hearing parents are not typically immersed in sign without therapy and directed learning. Just like those who suddenly hear with CIs after years of silence, and need to catch up using avt, aural rehab. etc., deaf children who are not born into a Deaf community require a lot of help to become fluent in ASL. Even if parents find a way to become fluent VERY quickly, most of the time their extended family, neighbors, schools, television, movies, etc. do not offer sign input. I've even heard of siblings not learning their own brother's / sister's language.

The language a child experiences all around him is his natural language. Unless enormous effort is made by all around him to provide immersion in ASL at home and school and in the community, spoken language will most often be the "natural language" of a deaf child with a CIs or with adequate amplification from HAs.

**GrendelQ** · 11-21-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

not sure i agree with that...there is a difference. Every deaf child needs language therapy, regardless of which language is being chosen to be used as the child's primary language. Ideally, if the child is using asl, she will be exposed to english bilingually as much as possible. Using exclusively asl only, especially during the early stages of language development, makes me very uneasy.

Language immersion applies to either asl or spoken english. If i hadn't been immersed in spoken english, then i would not have learned to speak and write english at the level that i do. The key to immersion is making sure the child has access to the language as much as possible. Kids who are successful at being oral usually thrive from a home environment that makes the spoken language accessible to them in one way or another.

This is exactly why i do not always say that asl is the ideal language for a deaf child of hearing parents. How can a deaf child be truly immerged in asl if the parents haven't even learned it yet? Therapy simply provides tools, strategies, and practice. immersion means the language is accessible most of the time, if not always.

my daughter, who is unilaterally deaf, does not like to sign even though my husband and i use signed english at home. She is exposed to both signed english and asl often. But she rather use spoken english. And that's fine by me. For whatever reason, that's her preferred mode of communication. each child is wired differently.

+1

**Beowulf** · 11-21-2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

Yes, Deaf children with Deaf parents are immersed in ASL from the start and do wonderfully! But deaf children of hearing parents are not typically immersed in sign without therapy and directed learning. Just like those who suddenly hear with CIs after years of silence, and need to catch up using avt, aural rehab. etc., deaf children who are not born into a Deaf community require a lot of help to become fluent in ASL. Even if parents find a way to become fluent VERY quickly, most of the time their extended family, neighbors, schools, television, movies, etc. do not offer sign input. I've even heard of siblings not learning their own brother's / sister's language.

The language a child experiences all around him is his natural language. Unless enormous effort is made by all around him to provide immersion in ASL at home and school and in the community, spoken language will most often be the "natural language" of a deaf child with a CIs or with adequate amplification from HAs.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

**GrendelQ** · 11-21-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

In what way?

**Beowulf** · 11-21-2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

In what way?

It's a no-brainer. A child born into a deaf family with ASL will consider it his/her natural language, no matter how enormous outside influences are to change it.

**GrendelQ** · 11-21-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

It's a no-brainer. A child born into a deaf family with ASL will consider it his/her natural language, no matter how enormous outside influences are to change it.

Right. "Deaf children with Deaf parents are immersed in ASL from the start and do wonderfully!"

Most deaf children are born to hearing families and are surrounded by spoken language, however, even if parents start learning ASL.

kokonut · 11-21-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

Hands & Voices :: Articles

This was VERY interesting to read. It ties in with this thread perfectly. There's no black and white answers.

Excellent organization. I'd rather put my money into that organization than anything else. They are very professional about what they do. Other relatively newer organizations are basically temperamental, unprofessional and Deaf politically oriented. In Hands and Voices I was featured in a two page interview (on paper) about 3 years ago.

deafbajagal · 11-21-2010, 12:48 PM

I agree, which is why it's the only organization I agreed to serve on as a board member. It's unbiased, and their focus is to provide ALL of the most updated, current information to support parents in whatever means possible. I went to one meeting and was hooked.

faire_jour · 11-21-2010, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

I agree, which is why it's the only organization I agreed to serve on as a board member. It's unbiased, and their focus is to provide ALL of the most updated, current information to support parents in whatever means possible. I went to one meeting and was hooked.

I agree. Because it is run by parents for parents I feel like it is the most unbiased and welcoming organization and the only one I am willing to affiliate myself with.

Bebonang · 11-21-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

Yes, Deaf children with Deaf parents are immersed in ASL from the start and do wonderfully! But deaf children of hearing parents are not typically immersed in sign without therapy and directed learning. Just like those who suddenly hear with CIs after years of silence, and need to catch up using avt, aural rehab. etc., deaf children who are not born into a Deaf community require a lot of help to become fluent in ASL. Even if parents find a way to become fluent VERY quickly, most of the time their extended family, neighbors, schools, television, movies, etc. do not offer sign input. I've even heard of siblings not learning their own brother's / sister's language.

The language a child experiences all around him is his natural language. Unless enormous effort is made by all around him to provide immersion in ASL at home and school and in the community, spoken language will most often be the "natural language" of a deaf child with a CIs or with adequate amplification from HAs.

(groan) Facepalm.

deafdyke · 11-22-2010, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Please explain how having a S&L therapist made it impossible for my daughter to acquire language incidentally and/or peripherally?

Love the anti cochlear implant crew.

Rick, you are still SO fixtated on your opinon that the Deaf World is anti CI, that you're assuming we're anti CI We are NOT! Just b/c we're not all " CI CI CI CI!!!!" Yes, the CI allows for SOME access to the hearing world.....but not total and complete. Just as with hearing aids....and you get a range from "almost H/hearing" (your daughter) to almost Deaf..there's a HUGE range of benifit and identification....and it doesn't nessarily have to do with how well a kid can hear!!!
And you're missing something. Your child by taking speech therapy (and going private and adding extra speech) had to be TAUGHT to speak. She couldn't just put on her CI and learn spoken English the way a hearing kid can and does! She did later yes, but that is b/c she had a flair for it. Not every oral kid has that flair. It's great that she does....and she prolly has a pretty high verbal IQ right?

Quote:

When a deaf child begins intensive ASL therapy its called "language immersion" but when the deaf child begins post-ci oral therapy its labeled "hyper intense instruction" One has a positive connotation the other a negative one.

Sigh....you just don't get it do you? An implanted kid who receives oral therapy isn't automaticly getting hyper intense therapy. It's exactly like how a kid in a wheelchair could use a wheelchair, but still get PT to develop walking skills, as an option. A dhh kid who is getting hyperintense therapy would be a kid whose entire toolbox (and not by choice. Meaning they were exposed to both ASL and speech, and chose speech only ) consists of only oral tools in the toolbox. Basicly oral only makes the kid have an eternal speech therapy session. Not nessarily articualtion therapy...but still only have spoken English. They can do it yes.(to varying degrees) ....but it does take a HELL of a lot of energy. It's like they way my quebecois friends can speak English (and quite well too) but it is a lot easier for them to speak French.

Quote:

BTW ever going to provide those sources to back up your unsubstantiated claims about ci kids?

What "unsubstationed claims? The ones about poor kids? That is an observational theory. You have to ask that and you had to supplement your daughter's speech therapy??!?! In case you haven't noticed, even middle class people are struggling with the cost of high health care. It's a HELL of a lot easier for middle class or professional people to move to areas where there's good oral programs/schools, and to have access to decent health insurances and to supplement and take time off for therapies and basicly really be involved. Not that poor families can't be involved.....but it's certainly a lot harder for a family where the mom works cleaning houses to afford good health insurance or to move near a school for the deaf or whatever.

Hohtopics · 11-22-2010, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgal001

I never was hearing. Are you implying that you could not hear anything with your hearing aids before you got your implant? If I understood her daughter had more hearing than me and you (her daughter had moderate hearing loss at least in one ear). So yes I think she hearing from her aids but could not sense out of it until she had her implant

I had some hearing with the hearing aids, however it was mostly just in an amplified sense. I've also had better speech discrimination since I got the CI though.

**Daredevel7** · 11-22-2010, 08:11 AM

A CI can generate electrical interference and cause an explosion at a gas station. Be careful when you fill up!

**GrendelQ** · 11-22-2010, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

A CI can generate electrical interference and cause an explosion at a gas station. Be careful when you fill up!

I think this is, hands down, my favorite.

drphil · 11-22-2010, 08:48 AM

Isn't the "natural language of the child" what the parents use and teach?
As for Cochlear Implants exploding in gas stations-any recent occurrence? Does Google know?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

**deafskeptic** · 11-22-2010, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drphil

Isn't the "natural language of the child" what the parents use and teach?
As for Cochlear Implants exploding in gas stations-any recent occurrence? Does Google know?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

Spoken language is at best only partially accessible for the deaf. Visual language is 100% accessiable to the deaf hence why the majority would prefer ASL or other signed languages.

I've never heard of CIs exploding in gas stations but there are risks with CIs and one would do well to be aware of risks before implanting them in yourself or your kids.

**Daredevel7** · 11-22-2010, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drphil

As for Cochlear Implants exploding in gas stations-any recent occurrence? Does Google know?

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

You are so silly. Didn't you know that audiologists and CI companies pay the media and cops to keep their mouths shut? It's all about $$$$$$. They make 6 billion dollars a year!

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Has anyone met a deaf person who is an ASL and spoken English user who supports the idea of not letting deaf children having exposure to ASL or the Deaf community?

The only deaf people I have met who supports that idea are the ones who never learned ASL or never went to a Deaf community event.

This is my experience as well. That is why I always say those that say ASL is not necessary are those that have no comparison base because they have never used it.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

I agree and I thank both her and FJ and others such as Cloggy too for opening up my eyes to the fact that cochlear implants and ASL can go hand and hand and give our kids even more possibilities.
Rick

Then why did you refuse ASL to your own child? Why do you not advocate for the use of ASL with children with cochlear implants?

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Exactly....the full toolbox approach. It is very hard to tell which tools will benifit which kids.

Yes, but 100%? And at a sophiscated language level? Kids with CIs are doing well, and some of them have really good spoken language abilty......but a) there were deaf kids with HAs who had spoken language accessible to them in the past. There's still a lot of teens and kids with severe-profound losses who can access spoken language (into mild hoh levels) with hearing aids. and b) it remains to be seen whether or not they will develop pretty much on par with hearing kids spoken language. Even hoh kids still may deal with spoken language delays!

jillo, not to attack you or anything, but the cooking class/ASL enrichment sounds a lot like a) the typical toddler vocabululary and syntax intervention that would go on even in a hearing (non special needs) preschool) Little kids are still learning vocab and syntax and b) It sounds more like ...well one of my best friends attended a French-English bilingal program as a kid. Early on, kids whose first language was English might get "vocab and syntax" lessons en Francais. This sounds a lot like what Li Li is doing....which is AWESOME!!! Maybe, this will be a viable route to turn a bi bi program, into a true bilingal program.....one where dhh kids can become fluent in ASL AND spoken language.
Oh, and I do agree with you re: the fourth grade milestone. It does seem that MANY oral kids do well in the early grades, but then around fourth grade things get a lot harder, and kids start struggling.

Of course. That is what I said. The class is intended to combine kinesthetic experience with new vocab to increase retention.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Yes. I know a Teacher of the Deaf who knows and uses ASL and works at an oral school and advocates for spoken language for deaf children.

Name, or even school she works at?

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgal001

Just to let you know, This also false to assumed that many oral severe-profound deaf with hearing aids can't pick up words in their surrounding either. otherwise I wouldn't know how to pronounce "SheRa" or "Gargamel" in Smurf.

It's complicated to explain.

But just because a kid is picking up and repeating words and phrases is no indication of the development of linquistic skills in that langauge. But, then, you already know that.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I disagree, from personal experience. My daughter was labeled as one of those kids who "can't" understand and use spoken language. When she had hearing aids, she couldn't. She had, literally, zero speech understand and maybe, a two dozen spoken words that she could use (and maybe 3 that were understandable to strangers). After her CI, we continued using the same therapist (and for almost a year, the same educational placement) and she gained 2 years worth of spoken language in 9 months. The only thing that changed was her access to sound.

Personal experience from a hearing perspective. Can't say it enough.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

The key here is early intervention. Li got her CI at 2 years old and not at 5 or 6 years old then it'd be a whole different story. This is true for all babies born with a hearing loss, the key is to get the sound to them early as possible. We are born wired with our auditory cortex ready to go after birth on receiving sound and for our brain to make sense of it.

The key is not to get SOUND to them as soon as possible. The key is to get COMMUNICATION to them as soon as possible.

And your adutory cortext is wired long before birth. At birth, a deaf child's auditory cortex begins to process visual information pertinent to communication and understanding of the environment. Nor does a newborn's brain immediately make sense of sound. It is a learning process that actually takes longer than processing visual information to meaning takes. Really, learn a bit about cognitive and neuro-psychology before you make any more mistakes in information.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Are you asking if she could hear beeps in the booth or if she could understand spoken language?

She could hear beeps, she could not understand spoken language.

She didn't speech read at all?

jillio · 11-22-2010, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Depends on your definition. The rates of non-use go up after around age 5, and the language outcomes decline.

And the improvement in those implanted earlier also level off and reach the point of the same improvement seen in HA users after the age of 5.

You have to read all of the research.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Yes. It has been shown again and again. They have done studies that show that kids implanted before age 18 months have auditory cortexes that process spoken language like hearing kids, not deaf kids. (they aren't hearing, they just process spoken language in the same way, at the same speeds as hearing kids.)

That is a misrepresentation of the data. Processing sound the same does not mean understanding speech the same. It simply means that auditory stimulus is processed in the auditory cortex. Someone who is aphasic processes spoken language the same as anyone else, but the degree of understanding is different.

jillio · 11-22-2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

For the parents who did just that...followed the recipe perfectly and with everything they have (appropriate services, follow ups, therapy, professionals, language access, and family support) and yet still experienced seeing their child fail...

I hope they don't read this. It will break their hearts.

Exactly. Makes me extremely angry. And these are the ones that want to complain about hearing parents being attacked for their choices on this board. They have just labeled every parent and every child who did not develop spoken language as a failure.

11-22-2010, 08:48 AM	#737 (permalink)
drphil Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Toronto Ontario Posts: 4,108	Isn't the "natural language of the child" what the parents use and teach? As for Cochlear Implants exploding in gas stations-any recent occurrence? Does Google know? Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07 __________________ Get Real:Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto -Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

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11-21-2010, 12:48 PM	#730 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	I agree, which is why it's the only organization I agreed to serve on as a board member. It's unbiased, and their focus is to provide ALL of the most updated, current information to support parents in whatever means possible. I went to one meeting and was hooked.

11-22-2010, 08:11 AM	#735 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4,341	A CI can generate electrical interference and cause an explosion at a gas station. Be careful when you fill up!