deafbajagal

[QUOTE=Mountain Man;1708581]But two people putting in the the same amount of work and effort will not necessarily achieve the same proficiency. In fact if person A has a natural affinity for something and person B does not, person B will (most likely) never achieve the same level of proficiency no matter how hard they work, and it's entirely possible that they will never be proficient. It's the same with deaf people learning to speak: not everybody can do it, and certainly not with the same proficiency.


This is so true. And this is something that many, many professionals fail to either realize or at least to point out, especially to parents. Some deaf people have worked SO hard, doing everything they possibly can do to learn how to use speech...and still fail. A deaf person either "has it" or not. This is really frustrating for me because I'm the kind of person who thinks in black and white terms when it comes to learning...I want to believe that if you put your heart into something, you will succeed. But when it comes to speech, it comes down to the fact that some people has the "wiring" and others don't. This is also true for auditory comprehension.

I've heard this so many times through my graduate studies in deaf education, reading countless journals and books, etc. But it wasn't until an audiologist who is deaf himself and has CIs on both sides, said this out loud during his presentation about hearing loss. It hit me what he was saying.

Not all of us are wired to be able to use and understand speech. It doesn't matter how hard we try. If we don't have the wires, it's not going to happen.

So my questions are flowing now. How do we know? Where do we draw the line, and say, "Ok, should we keep trying? Or have we reached the plateau?" The tricky part is...can we do it within the small window of time when language is most able to be acquired naturally and easily? When do we stop and try a different avenue?

Deafness

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rick48

Including my child as well.

rick48

That is a question many of us have asked.

If you truly support people who are deaf, then you celebrate their success regardless of the method. I have raised a happy, well adjusted deaf adult. If someone else is also a happy, well adjusted deaf adult but was raised differently, it does not detract from her accomplishments but rather they both add to the deaf community.

I think Kokonut is partially right, there is some jealousy there and also some insecurity and questioning of the decisions that were made years ago.

Bottom line, she does not matter as she plays no role in my child's life and nothing that she says in her daily rants can change the fact that my wife and I, with much credit to my wife, raised her to be the person she is today. Remember that, when you think about your daughter as she is what matters most.
Rick

rick48

I agree and I thank both her and FJ and others such as Cloggy too for opening up my eyes to the fact that cochlear implants and ASL can go hand and hand and give our kids even more possibilities.
Rick

deafdyke

Exactly....the full toolbox approach. It is very hard to tell which tools will benifit which kids.

Yes, but 100%? And at a sophiscated language level? Kids with CIs are doing well, and some of them have really good spoken language abilty......but a) there were deaf kids with HAs who had spoken language accessible to them in the past. There's still a lot of teens and kids with severe-profound losses who can access spoken language (into mild hoh levels) with hearing aids. and b) it remains to be seen whether or not they will develop pretty much on par with hearing kids spoken language. Even hoh kids still may deal with spoken language delays!



jillo, not to attack you or anything, but the cooking class/ASL enrichment sounds a lot like a) the typical toddler vocabululary and syntax intervention that would go on even in a hearing (non special needs) preschool) Little kids are still learning vocab and syntax and b) It sounds more like ...well one of my best friends attended a French-English bilingal program as a kid. Early on, kids whose first language was English might get "vocab and syntax" lessons en Francais.
This sounds a lot like what Li Li is doing....which is AWESOME!!! Maybe, this will be a viable route to turn a bi bi program, into a true bilingal program.....one where dhh kids can become fluent in ASL AND spoken language.
Oh, and I do agree with you re: the fourth grade milestone. It does seem that MANY oral kids do well in the early grades, but then around fourth grade things get a lot harder, and kids start struggling.

deafgal001

These people learned from deaf people themselves. Why didn't you? Do you ignored deaf people and only listen to hearing people that ASL and CI can go hand in hand?

deafdyke

I do think part of the improvement in oral sucesses is that nowadays teachers and professionals at the Name Oral Schools/Programs may be more open to suggesting ASL earlier.
But the thing is, although we have seen a lot of improvement, as well as superstars who really don't need a lot of accomondations, there are still many kids who are struggling as well as kids who aren't exactly on par with their spoken language. Yes, it's different from the old days in that very few kids can't pick up at least survival speech. But just b/c a kid can aquire spoken language easier then in the past, it doesn't mean that they're gonna be a minimal accomondations superstar. Or going to be a superstar in general. The thinking has been that hoh (and many CI kids are pretty much hoh) don't really "need" Deaf stuff. (eg schools, programs...they just need the Hearing World) All I will say to that, is that I wish those professionals could have listened in on me and my friend Ethan talking today. We both grew up hoh, mainstreamed and all that...and both experianced major downsides from that!

. Exactly. They no longer need hyperintense instruction in speech b/c of that. Hoh kids can pick up spoken language incidently and without hyperintense instruction, as long as they have a base to build on.

Oh really? Then how come you guys added a private speech therapist?

GrendelQ

I can't speak for Rick, and we don't have a private speech therapist, but Li doesn't pronounce every word exactly right. She's at a school for the deaf and her language models include deaf teachers and students with a range of oral skills. At this point, our focus is on developing her language. At some later point we may decide to have a speech therapist help her refine her articulation.

There's a difference between acquiring spoken language and refining speech / oral skills.

Some of her signs aren't as precise as they should be. We currently have an instructor working with her to refine her expressive ASL. This extra teaching doesn't mean either language is being forced on her.

deafgal001

Isn't latex and rubber the same thing? I thought latex is made of rubber.

rockdrummer

CI's are made of a rubbery latex material.

deafgal001

Not sure on the external parts , but I believe the internal is silcone.

overthepond

implant are made of silcone

rockdrummer

That's a lie.

rockdrummer

uhm... are you thinking of breast implant?

deafgal001

You are really confusing me... I can't tell if you are joking or don't believe implants have some silcone in it? (ahhh, I see, she did not use Cochlear before the implant so you are joking.... some mind you have)

The reason I don't know about the external piece because the covering of the wiring for the headpiece to my processor seem very flexible so I am not sure if it is latex or not.

rockdrummer

Usually you will find me joking around. It's my nature and afterall this thread is about lies and CI's so you can be most of what I say here will be a lie.

deafgal001

that's a lie too.

GrendelQ

liar's paradox

I think the internal component of an implant consists of the following materials: ceramic, platinum wire, coil, & pins, titanium shells, silicone insulation & silicone rubber, magnet.

faire_jour

Yes. I know a Teacher of the Deaf who knows and uses ASL and works at an oral school and advocates for spoken language for deaf children.

faire_jour

Not true. My daughter has picked up words and phrases from over hearing when I am on the phone, from other kids and even from the TV.

faire_jour

I disagree, from personal experience. My daughter was labeled as one of those kids who "can't" understand and use spoken language. When she had hearing aids, she couldn't. She had, literally, zero speech understand and maybe, a two dozen spoken words that she could use (and maybe 3 that were understandable to strangers). After her CI, we continued using the same therapist (and for almost a year, the same educational placement) and she gained 2 years worth of spoken language in 9 months. The only thing that changed was her access to sound.

deafgal001

Just to let you know, This also false to assumed that many oral severe-profound deaf with hearing aids can't pick up words in their surrounding either. otherwise I wouldn't know how to pronounce "SheRa" or "Gargamel" in Smurf.

It's complicated to explain.

Mountain Man

You can disagree all you want, but many others have had different experiences. Not every child is guaranteed to have the same success with CI as your daughter. This is inarguable. And that's really what it comes down to as far as I'm concerned: too many risks and not enough guarantees, especially for something that is, essentially, unnecessary.

deafbajagal

True. Especially nowdays with the state-of-art digital hearing aids designed for persons who are profoundly deaf.

faire_jour

So how do you explain that my child was labeled as one of those kids, and then, suddenly, she could. Nothing in her changed, she had the same brain, the same "talents", but suddenly she gained spoken language extremely quickly. She was seeing the same therapists, even the same school. The only thing that changed was the device. How can we say "Some kids can, some can't" when clearly, sometimes it is not the child, but the device?

deafgal001

I guess it is the same as my son when he started out ABC's to reading "CAT"

Kids grow. And Some things just click..

-like the time I was reading Sunday newspaper comic. before I would just look at pictures and I remember vividly that one day i started to look at the words and was reading by myself. I was so amazed by it and been reading independently by myself since. That's when it just click.

deafbajagal

I didn't learn how to speak clearly until I was almost 10. It was literally overnight. One day I was making words here and there, and the next day I started talking as if I had been doing it my whole life. A light bulb moment.

Sometimes, therapy is there but it takes time for a child to truly "click" what is being presented. And the CI certainly is a factor, no doubt. With the CI and therapy combined, your daughter has tools right in front of her. And for whatever reason, she was able to have her light bulb moment. Which is amazing!!! And great!!!

The thing is, not many kids have this moment, regardless of how hard they work or how long they have had their tools. It doesn't click. And for me, as an educator, it bothers me. I've seen parents like you who have poured their whole soul into helping their child become successful...only for the child to become more and more delayed.

Where do we draw the line? How do we know?

deafbajagal

I didn't see your post while I was typing (to deafgal001) but it's funny how we both said "click." Yep.

faire_jour

For my daughter it was the CI. She went from understand zero in the booth to testing at 96%, in less than a year. How can that be anything other than the device?

deafbajagal

Please clarify for me...are you saying, once your daughter was implanted, there was no therapy or intervention whatsoever between the time she was implanted to the time she was tested?

96% in what? speech recognition? auditory recognition?