ref74

It's pretty clear you have no idea of what could be behind the treatment.
That money appears to be hardly sufficient to grow up a suitable cell population! add the clinical costs, medical treatment, simple administrative cost for the hospital and finally a profit (won't you think they work for free...). It's incredibly low. In the US a similar thing would cost ten times that.

Deafness

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deafdude1

Welcome to China!

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set2

If such a treatment worked I would be more concerned with safety than cost. I wonder what sort of quality controls they have. Remember China is the country that sold an ingrediant of pet food that resulted in the deaths of over 1000 American pets. Babies in china became sick from chinese made formula. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

deafdude1

One stem cell center has treated over 6000 people, 96% without complications, very few with serious complications and no one got tumors, cancer or died from stem cells, just from the disease itself after the disease ran it's course. Stem cells isn't a complete cure but an improvement for all kinds of diseases. It buys you time and maybe better technology by then can cure your disease before you die.

I am going to wait and see how the pioneers fare with stem cells before I go ahead. I will have an idea of the risk and results and can then make my decision. I know that CI itself has risks and involves surgery. Stem cells will let me avoid surgery so this is a big plus. There's many other plusses to stem cells that ive mentioned in my blog.

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ref74

yes, following their own stats...

webexplorer

Oh yes, of course! That makes sense. I also think that China does experiments on prisoners just like Nazi methods that we don't see on the news because they blocked the news.

China demonstrated their Chinese prisoners' human parts at some museums in the U.S. That's horrible! We shouldn't buy anything that made in China - I know most people are hard to give it up.

I still think that China should continue their Stem Cell research as long as other countries see that, and they would do the same thing. All priests should shut up their mouth - none of their business that we want our life better and cut down four walls so that our life and our children's future would be more flexible.

neuro

http://crscm.org/Cell_Transplant2008...la_Hearing.pdf

ref74

Nice work of italian guys!!
I would like to point out this sentence from the abstract:
"These observation offer the first evidence that transplanted human HSC migrating to the inner ear of oto-injured mice may provide conditions for the resumption of deafened cochlea, emerging as a potential strategy for inner ear rehabilitation"

Words count.
It is a work of 2008, very recent then. Extremely promising, but please consider it is on mice. And some of you are talking about flying to China to get the same treatment it has been at the moment experimented on mice only... Yes, besides some hypotetical human volunteers in that Chinese facilities, of course...
Very very nice, but still not so much for the entusiasm I see here...
My impression is that we need 7-10 years, not less than that, but maybe much more...

webexplorer

Here is a link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...841860910.html

What do you think about the article?

neuro

Spanish Society of Gene and Cell Therapy 2009 Oral Presentations
Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. - Human Gene Therapy - 20(9):1035

deafdude1

2008 isn't that recent. Things have changed alot since then. None of us are going to fly to China today, not even me. I am giving it 2-5 year wait. I am not going to wait a decade. I know that stem cells won't make me hearing in 2-5 years but ill take my partial improvement then get stem cells again for additional improvements down the road.

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ref74

Works published in the last two years are recent. Of course in some fields things are running fast, but we should try not to exaggerate...

As I always say to you, you are free to make your choices and I wish you all the best. What I want to do here is doing my best to give a rational, independent and equilibrate opinion about how the things stand.
As you know from what we discussed about in the last weeks, I am no against stem cells, at the contrary I am extremely interested and hopeful. Nevertheless, the instruments my education and my profession gave me, led me to conclude stem cells are not close enough to be an option in the near future.
Hope I am wrong, but on the basis of the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCES it is difficult to conclude a different opinion...
What I still cannot understand is why these Chinese people do not share their results with the scientific community. Note that China is not out from the scientific community, at the contrary they are stronger and stronger!
All the "medical" corporations do that! It gives strenghts to their technoloogy and it pushes the business!! Look to what Cochlear, AB and Med-El are doing and did in the last years!! And this is just a small example!
This attitude drive me skeptical... I do not see any reason to simply come out with press release and no scientific papers. Unless they do not have scientifically robust results...

deafdude1

They already showed scientists this and the same scientists chose not to believe the results and not publish them. Beike has published their own articles of which im reading several case studies for each disease from blindness to MS to paralysis, to brain damage to diabetes, etc. When you have a life threatening disease or even if you become blind/deaf you want to do something about it. Stem cells presents that option now. You can do a Google search for testimonals.

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deafdude1

You said that in another thread. That's a great thing you want to help your son hear. What is his degree of hearing loss and how well does he hear with HAs? My own parents would have gotten me stem cells if it was available back then. They still want me to get stem cells and I want it myself. My parents know a cochlear implant won't restore any hearing, just give me access to sounds which I already get with HAs. My dad finds CI surgery scary and risky cause they cut your head open. Ive discussed when I can get stem cells and we both agree the timeframe is 2-5 years from now. Once all the pioneers get stem cells for hearing loss and they blog their experience and provide audiograms, I am next. Ill be sure to give all the facts and share the full experience in my blog. Maybe your son can go next after me?

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set2

I went to the company website asked if they could verify if ths treatment and was actually done. I received a reply and was informed that they had recently treated two patients with severe hearing loss and that the parents were happy with the results. The email also mentioned the company has not had very much experience with treating hearing loss.

They also mentioned that they had received numerous inquiries about hearing loss treatment , in the last few days. hmm, wonder why? DD and phi?

I also found mention of the company on another website when I did a search for Biotech in China. So it looks like the company is legit but at this point the data is not valid ,yet, because the data has not been reviewed and the company has not yet documented their procedures. Documention would include things like is the audiometer working properly, when was the last time the audiometer was checked. I also have to wonder why was there no change in the ABR.? Shouldn't the change in pure tone show up in the ABR?

Anyway it is still early days for stem cells.

deafdude1

If the parents were happy, then their child(ren) did experience a real improvement. A such improvement would be obvious in the child being able to understand more speech and hear more sounds, even unaided! One reason I am not ready to be treated myself is that company doesn't have enough experience. Once they have treated 100+ patients and show their audiograms and testimonals, I am going ahead.

I did not send any emails. Phi sent a few. Im sure many others sent them emails as well when it became news that they can now treat hearing loss/deafness with stem cells. There's a lady on another forum whos deaf and she is getting stem cells very soon. I bet dozens of others are interested and in a few months, they will have more experience as they treat more patients. I am very interested but will wait a short while for the pioneers to go first. Yes it's early days for stem cells, but the point is that it's available now!

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webexplorer

I am surprised to read your post. I wonder that if it is related to a regeneration hearing? Regeneration hearing and restoring hearing from born deaf are completely different. Can you find out about it?

set2

Web,

If you do a search for Beike biotechnology go to the web site and then click on contact us. You can ask questions in the comment section. You don't have to fill out all of the information that comes before the comment section.

Phi4Sius

set2 - That's awesome re: their numerous inquiries. Hehehe.

I too am waiting for the first 100 or so results/audiograms to see how things go and I will follow suit with deafdude.

__________________
---------------------
Check out my blog!!
http://phi4sius.blogspot.com/

ref74

Well, my son actually has no audiogram unaided, since he does not react to any sound level. We could say he is 100db or more across the board.
Now he is aided and he is giving some responses. The last audiogram showed he is aided at 50db at 250Hz going down to 70db at 3000. He seems to hear nothing over there.
After that audiogram he got two setting sessions for the HAs and after that he is showing some interesting improvements. He can recognize voices, he turns when called, he notices some new sounds everyday. At the six sounds test he can hear "ah", "uh", "mm", "ss", while he shows no reactions at "sh" and strangely nor at "ee". This is for his right ear. The left ear is definitely worse, it is not perfectly clear what he can hear, for sure some sounds, but usually no reaction at the six sounds test. Note that the left HA is set at a higher amplification level for that reason, but it still appears not to be satisfactory.
In two weeks we will have another audiogram and we will see some quantitative measurements of his improvements.
Note that we are happy to see some improvements! Our worries is about the time we will need to have a complete picture of his capabilities. Our concerns are related to the fact that he will be 2 next week and we know that if at the end the CI will happen to be the most suitable solution we have to be as fast as possible to give him the best opportunities to get the most out of it.
At the moment he is too young to run word comprehension tests. And he has not developed any form of speech comprehension (but he is a very good communicator). Basically we do not have a clear idea of his potential for speech understanding.

In other words we do not want to force the decision, because we understand the importance of evaluating the residual hearing. We do not know if CI will really turn to be better than HAs for him. Anyway we also understand that in the most of cases for children with his degree of hearing loss it is still extremely difficult to get good results with HAs and CI demonstrates to be better generally. We understand the risks of the CI and our concerns are more related to the fact that it cannot be considered for sure a better solution at the end, rather that to the surgery risks themselves.
I know CI could give him access to things he will never get with HAs, but I also know that this is not sure and he could function worse with CI than with HAs. The choice would be easier if his residual hearing would be negligible, for obvious reasons. But I am happy he has a usable residual hearing!
This is why it is so difficult.

Please note that stem cells are not an option for us. We do not want to consider an experimental medical practice at all. I do not believe to results not proven scientifically. Especially for my child! And we won't fly to China for a medical treatment. You know my idea on that.

neuro

The regeneration of neurites to recover the audition

"A B S T R AC T
The UCM (Spain) offers a method to regenerate neurites from
explants of the spiral ganglion. This neuronal regeneration is
independent of the age of the animal, since the growth of
neurites is observed from newborn, young, adult and aged
spiral ganglia.
For this method to be applicable to sensorineural deafness or
hipoacusic patient, further research is required to develop a
new biopharmacological product, and a new hearing
bioprosthesis, that allows for the liberation of the growth
factors involved in regeneration and survival of spiral
ganglion neurons in vivo.
| DESCRIPTION AND SPECIAL FEATURES|
In the developed societies, the number of hipoacusic patients is
increasing dramatically due to environmental and life style factors.
Presbycusis is the second cause of pathology affecting the aged
population, behind presbytia.
The development of this method has achieved the standardization
and simplification of the in vitro conditions necessary for neuronal
regeneration in the auditory system. Two main requirements are
considered investigated in order to apply this method in vivo:
· The substrate in which the explant is due to adhere.
· The conditioned culture medium (specific growth factors and
specific components).
The adhesion of the neurons to the substrate is fundamental for the
regeneration of neurites, especially in neurons from adult and aging
animals. The substrate is composed by fibronectin, collagen, laminin
and poli-L-lysin. These four components are present in neuropilo of
the spiral ganglion, in vivo conditions. The polymerization of these
substrates is achieved in two processes:
1. The polymerization of fibronectin, collagen, laminin substrates
carried out in cold conditions.
2. The polymerization of poli-L-lysin icarried out at room
temperature or 37ºC.
The second fundamental characteristic is the culture medium used
for the regeneration of neurites in vitro. The medium is composed of
nutritional components and neurotrophic factors. The specific
concentration of these compounds grants the permeability and the
diffusion through the plasmatic membrane, without being toxic to
the neurons. These nutrients, which contribute to the nutritional
and energetic needs, together with the use of neurotrophic factors
within the neuron, enable the regeneration of neurites from already
adult and aged neurons.
The new product can be applied to patients with different types of
neurosensorial hearing loss. The use of this new product does not
produce any organic injury to the cochlea. The regeneration of
neurites from spiral ganglia allow to the patient not only recovers
the biological structure (neurons) of this complex sensory function,
he also perceives all the intensities and frequencies audible to the
human ear.
| INNOVATIVE ASPECTS|
The great innovative aspect of the regeneration of neurites form
spiral ganglion neurons in relation to current auditory prosthesis is
that the hipoacusic patient neurons are responsible of transmitting
the sound messenger in all cochlear frequencies and intensities to
central auditory system. Whereas the actual technology only feature
a limited representation of cochlear frequencies and intensities.
Actually, the hipoacusic patient thus forcing to adapt to a “new
hearing form”.
| COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGES|
This methodology can have a great solution for the hipoacusic
patient, since the cochlea is not destroyed for the implantation, and
allow a replacement possibility in case of deterioration or non
viability. Moreover this methodology is advisable for certain auditory
pathologies, specifically when the cochlear implant is not
effectiveness (i e. presbycusis patients).
| TYPE OF COLLABORATION SOUGHT|
• Technical cooperation.
• License agreement.
Comments
The application of this method requires the collaboration of two
different types of companies in two different stages:
1. The collaboration with biotechnology, biopharmacology and/or
biomedicine companies will allow to profile the end product
(compendium of the different products used) that must be
administered to the patient.
2. The collaboration with companies interested in the production of
enhanced prosthesis technology, adapted for the diffusion of the
product within the cochlea.
The companies potentially interested are:
1. Companies related to hearing improvement systems,
currently investigating new auditory prosthesis for hipoacusic
patients.
2. Companies dedicated to the biopharmaceutical or biotechnology
fields.
3. Companies producing micro or nanotechnology to design a new
product to introduce and spread the cocktail of growth factors
within the internal ear.
The collaborating company must facilitate the recruitment of highly
qualified technical personnel.
| CURRENT STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT OF THE TECHNOLOGY|
• Development phase.
| CURRENT STAT E O F I N T E L L E C T UAL PROPERT Y|
• Patent applied.
Comments
Patent applied in July 2007.
| FINANCIAL SOURCE OF THE TECHNOLOGY|
• National project.
• Regional project.
UCM_13
C O N TA C T P E R S O N : Mayte Ripio
O R G A N I Z AT I O N : OTRI-UCM
P H O N E : +34 91 394 63 74 F A X : +34 91 394 63 82 E - M A I L : ripio@rect.ucm.es"

source: http://www.madrimasd.org/informacion...iomedicina.pdf

neuro

"Beike Biotech Adds International Executives to Strengthen Current Technologies and Develop Future Pipeline

SHENZHEN, China, Sept. 8 /PRNewswire-Asia/ -- Shenzhen Beike Biotechnology
Co. Ltd. ( Beike Biotech ), a leader in stem cell research and
regenerative medicine, announced the appointment of two senior stem cell
scientists to key positions in the company. Li Tao, Ph.D., joins as Lab
Director of the iPS (induced Pluripotent Stem Cell) Laboratory, and Susan
Jiang, M.D., Ph.D., has been named Chief Science Officer. Dr. Sean Hu, Ph.D.,
CEO and Chairman, will remain focused on furthering the company's research
achievements while strengthening its position in the international
biotechnology field.
Dr. Hu commented, "Beike has been at the forefront of stem cell technology
in China and we are currently expanding throughout Asia. We are addressing a
number of important factors to strengthen our credentials internationally, and
we see Dr. Li Tao and Dr. Susan Jiang contributing greatly to this effort. Dr.
Jiang will spearhead our initiatives to enhance our current technologies and
increase their acceptance by the Western scientific community while Dr. Tao
will lead a group developing a pipeline of emerging technologies for the
coming five to ten years."
Dr. Tao comes to Beike with over 20 years of research experience in
genetics, epigenetics, cell and stem cell biology, molecular biology, cancer
biology and protein chemistry. He was most recently a senior research
scientist at Stanford University's School of Medicine. During his six years at
Stanford, he authored or co-authored 22 papers in peer-reviewed journals
including Science, Human Molecular Genetics, Cancer Research and Genomics.
Before Stanford, he earned his Ph.D. at Tokyo University and spent nine years
in Japan working on genetics and genetic engineering, publishing articles in
16 international, peer-reviewed, journals.
Dr. Hu stated, "Dr. Li Tao has considerable experience and has also shown
his ability to consistently publish innovative research. We will look to his
strong leadership skills when directing the research and development work of
our iPS laboratory. This is a young field; his experience in senior roles in
Japan and the U.S. is a great asset to our goal of being at the cutting-edge
of research." With nine full-time researchers, the iPS lab's main focus is the
safe manufacture of iPS cells for insulin production.
Dr. Susan Jiang began her career path as a physician in the field of
otorhinolaryngology, specializing in head and neck (ENT-HN) surgery. After
receiving her Ph.D. in China, she completed post-doctoral work in the
Department of Physiology Biophysics at the University of Arkansas in 2002. In
2005, Dr. Jiang moved to the Pediatrics Department of Stanford University
where she investigated the therapeutic potential of stem cells in neo-natal
respiratory diseases and developed wound healing models based on stem cell
technologies. After nearly three years at Stanford, she became Scientific
Director at Escape Therapeutics in the U.S., managing their science team as
they developed products based on genetically engineered human stem cells and
beta cells for diabetic-related disorders.
Dr. Hu expressed his excitement over the recruitment of Susan Jiang: "Dr.
Jiang's international clinical and laboratory experience gives her the right
background to help us validate our current technologies internationally. She
will also take on task of refining our stem cell cultivation processes and
advancing the clinical development of our treatment protocols,"
Dr. Jiang added, "I decided to come back to China because of the nurturing
research environment, where the government has consistently provided a
supportive and practical regulatory framework with generous access to funding.
I regard Beike as ideally situated to reap the benefits of this fertile
environment because of its focus both on current clinical technologies and
cutting edge research."
About Shenzhen Beike Biotechnology Co. Ltd.
Beike Biotechnology focuses on stem cell research and on clinical
applications of stem cell therapies. The company currently produces a full
line of stem cell products derived from umbilical cord, cord blood, and bone
marrow stem cells. Beike's proprietary processing and quality assurance
technologies prepare the cells for use in treating a variety of serious
medical conditions such as the ataxias, brain injury, cerebral palsy, diabetic
foot disease, lower limb ischemia, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy,
spinal cord injury and optic nerve damage.
SOURCE Shenzhen Beike Biotechnology Co. Ltd.

T. Gutmann, Shenzhen Beike Biotech Company, Ltd., Shenzhen Hi-Tech Industrial
Park, +86-0755-8611-0575, or info@beikebiotech.com

Read more: http://www.fiercebiotech.com/press-releases/beike-biotech-adds-international-executives-strengthen-current-technologies#ixzz0RGntJJVB"
source: Beike Biotech Adds International Executives to Strengthen Current Technologies - FierceBiotech

faire_jour

The second formant for "ee" is over 2000 hz, that is why he can't distinguish that sound from others.

Also, I asked my daughter's SLP, who has been in the field of aural rehab with deaf kids for over 25 years, "What percentage of people who get CI's hear WORSE than they did with hearing aids?". She looked at me and asked "If they are wearing it, and getting their MAPing, and it isn't broken?" I said "Of course", and she answered:

"NONE!"

She said that each person gets a different result but that it is NEVER worse than what they had with hearing aids. She said because if they could, they wouldn't be a candidate, and that it works that way because a CI bypasses the "broken" part of the ear so you no longer rely on the damaged or missing hairs.

She said that the young implanted CI kids are now doing BETTER than kids with moderate losses and hearing aids. She says that they never have to do catch up, because they don't fall behind.

AlleyCat

My CI audi said some DO worse. They've seen that on some audiograms. Thinking that "NONE!" is realistic as far as whether it is worse or not than a HA is unrealistic. Merely bypassing what doesn't work doesn't guarantee a better result. I took that into consideration myself last year when considering a CI for myself. I know you're a parent of a deaf child with a CI and I know you want to be optimistic for her (what parent wouldn't be?) but to spout that no one does worse with a CI than HA isn't right. You're getting your information from one audiologist, not every audiologist who has worked with CIs.

faire_jour

I don't give a CRAP about an audiogram, I am talking about speech understanding.

AlleyCat

Then you don't understand that audiograms/level of loss go hand-in-hand with speech discrimination to a degree. Seems as if you don't care anyway and think we are just talking out of our asses anyway, as you've said. Given that I've been deaf for 39 years, as well as others here, some of us DO know what we're talking about.

faire_jour

To a certain point, you are right, but just scoring worse on an audiogram with a CI vs hearing aids does NOT mean worse speech understanding. Just because you are aided to 5 db in one frequency and that drops to 30 with a CI (across the board) does NOT mean you are hearing worse. The speech understanding will still go up.

deafdude1

I wouldn't be surprised if at least a dozen more people get stem cells this year. Itll be popular for deaf children of hearing parents and late deafened adults as an alternative to CI. They will be the pioneers whos results we will closely follow. You can email them again two months from now, they should have a bunch of results and audiograms to share.

How can you tell? Deafness starts at 70db HL!

Why so little amplification? That won't cut it at all. I was aided to 35db with a 100db loss in 1998.

Then you need more amplification, especially for the left ear. It's a good sign that he can hear even the "ss" sound. He may be hearing better than you think even with less than optimal gain.

Scan the audiogram here for us to observe and learn. Is his audiologist going to fit him with more powerful HAs, perhaps the same Phonak Naida V UP HAs I have? Transposition should also be tried as well.

Can he speak clearly and read lips? My parents said I learned to read lips at a young age and got speech therapy to speak clearly. If you met me, you wouldn't even know I am deaf unless I told you. That's because we are just as capable! HA/CI are just tools to access sounds. The real training is in our brains!

The odds of CI being better than HAs for a 100db loss is fairly good, but many people still do well up to a 100db loss with HAs, I am living proof of this.

If you are looking for speech access, I had that with lipreading combined with hearing the sounds of voices. No one could tell I was deaf unless they saw my HAs. Lipreading is not inferior, just a different way to access speech. I would only implant a child if he had no residual hearing so he can at least gain access to sounds that no HA could.

Then he will have to wait till he's a teen for stem cells to be mature and FDA approved. By then, he would be old enough to decide if he even wants stem cells or is happy the way things are. Some Deaf people don't even consider their deafness a disability and don't see a need to have it "fixed" by CI nor stem cells.

He should still hear the first formant and if he can hear "ss" he can hear everything else since "ss" is the highest frequency sound.

Can I have her contact info so I can ask her how many different HAs were tried before considering CI? I am not convinced because of this fact:

For those who say I have no clue what im talking about, I am going to defend myself.

A deaf dude's life: Try every HA before CI! This guy now scores 80% speech with HA!

Why get CI when the right HAs programmed correctly can get you from 20% to 80% speech? He has the same HAs I have. If I had a little more residual hearing, id be scoring 80% speech too!

A deaf dude's life: Profoundly deaf man scores over 90% speech recognition with hearing aids!

Profoundly deaf man scores over 90% speech recognition with hearing aids! It just goes to show if you put enough time and effort into getting properly fitted with HAs, you can score as well as a CI!

Id like to know what kind of HAs and how much amplification those moderately HOH kids had. Id also like to know if those with HAs recieved equal speech training and education as those with CI.

I know someone who has so much residual hearing that if I had her hearing, I would be hearing 0-10db in several frequencies and with transposition, I could match what CI gives in the high frequencies. Transposition can bypass cochlear dead regions as easily as a CI can. Some deaf people have plenty of low and mid frequency hearing that they do great with transposition. Furthermore, my own audiologist isn't unrealistic about CI. He knows many people who got CI, including some children with two CIs! Yet he says there's no guarantee ill hear better with CI. Your own audiologist is also realistic and doesn't think CI to be pratically a cure. If you have 100db loss, todays HAs can aid you as good as 30db. I was aided to 35db with 1998 HAs which was matching a CI at that time.

http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids-...-scores-2.html

Agreed and I have a thread on this. My own speech scores went up with more amplification and better aided audiograms. Phi4sius has a severe loss, but with properly fitted HA, he hears and understands speech as good as a CI. He was aided to 20db with older HAs and says he could be at 10db. No this isn't at just 250Hz but at most frequencies! CI rarely gets you better than 20db by comparsion!

__________________

faire_jour

Why is 20 db with 10% comprhension better than 30 db with greater than 80%???

neuro

Deafness stem cell transplantation to restore hearing for many years
Google Traductor

ear hearing returned to normal???