Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children - Page 8

**Kalista** · 01-22-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Maybe Kalista was saying she is against the philososphy and the people who work in the field of oral deaf education who tell lies about ASL to the public not the people who were raised in it. If Kalista was against the people who were raised in it, then that would mean she is against me but she is not.

You are correct, I have no against oralism people. It is so frustrated with them when they are narrowmind. I try so hard to educational them how ASL is important language for the Deaf Community. Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep.

Taught little Deaf children to learn how to speak. Where they learn in their education in ASL, their English structure will pick up really quickly by visual in hands sign language than read the lip. Read the lip tends to cause them misunderstanding.

Speak and sign language same time, it cause very confuse for the little children. I admitted that I use my voice when I sign. My son said, my voice is too loud and inappropriate words. So, I decide to turn off my voice, it makes my son feel more comfortable to visual in my ASL and facial impression.

Tousi · 01-22-2008, 01:01 PM

Kalista says: "Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep."

See? This is NOT what Deafhood is supposed to be about. No body is any better than anybody else!

**Kalista** · 01-22-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

Kalista says: "Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep."

See? This is NOT what Deafhood is supposed to be about. No body is any better than anybody else!

I have none toleration with oralism people because they tend to misunderstand me due to my sign language is accelerated. I hate to repeat what I said. It causes our communication breakdown. It is so frustrated.

jillio · 01-22-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Funny how you say that since I've been a member on Ad, I encounter some deaf people like yourself who thinks that the majority generation of deaf people had failed in fact on another thread which was locked and I did not have a chance to reply to one of your post that you felt that I was offended on what Jillio stated that she had never met any deaf who had done better on communication and litacty.
And that is far from it. You don't know the majority of deaf people's experences because NO deaf is the same as another deaf their hearing loss, their residental hearing. It was so wrong to placed your judgement on them and say that children today had better or done better than the rest of the majority of the deaf in the past did. There are some deaf who had sucessful and some who did not. I applause the generation of deaf people who had went out and did their best. But you on the other hand judged those deaf poorly because of that you compared them all to the deaf children today in the bi bi program.

From what I remembered during the 1700 when ASL was taught in school they did well, but the only problem was 84 percent of those deaf had NO spoken language, all those deaf children back then were raised using ASL would enter oral education, they did not have any spoken language and oral did fail them.

Those who was never use ASL as their primary language, in most cases oral had sucess for them because they had natural spoken language at the start, than those who exposed to ASL at the begin, do you see the differences?

Bottom line is that everyone's experience is valuable as yours, not just yours alone from only from your view.

I have met a lot of deaf people who are different from each others, some of them had poorly education where a method of communication did not match them. Some of them have culture views who was raised in the Deaf Culture, on the other hand there were deaf people who had experienced with the hearing and deaf world which is an advantage that not many people have.

For instance there is no similar route that the majority of deaf people should go with.
Some deaf people have no regrets no grudge but there are some that do. We should never be ashamed of who we are and what we have become, everyone's experiences were different from each others, but no deaf is better than another deaf person.

Its time to stop comparing and judging those generation of deaf people.

Actually, Cheri, what I said was that, in my experience, I had not seen the Bi-Bi approach fail a student. That is very different from your quote bolded above. I have however, seen students that have been failed by the system of oralism and by the system of TC. I have seen students that have not been able to develop skills that are in line with their capabilities. In other words, I have seen students who were far brighter than their literacy skills demonstrated under the TC and oral systems.

As long as we continue to keep the educational system fractionalized, there will be gaps in the services that deaf children receive. Deaf children will continue to be educated at a level that is far below their intellectual capabilites. We need to find a system that provides more for these children so they have the opportunity to take what they need and use it to develop their natural intelligence. IMO, Bi-Bi is that system.

jillio · 01-22-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

My goal is to make deaf education better for all future deaf kids so no deaf child is left behind. What's wrong with wanting that? I thought that was my job as a teacher. Isnt that what teachers are supposed to do?

I was always emphasizing in my experience. Never said that in everyone else's experiences.

I applaud the past generation of deaf people for overcoming their obstacles and I dont judge them. I am talking about the failure of the educational system not the deaf people themselves. If u dont understand the difference, then I am sorry. I dont accept less when it comes to the education for deaf children so that is why I want to give all deaf children all access to education and language.

Geez, my topic was about how some parents have stated they prefer their kids to interact with hearing children or oral deaf only not the signing deaf kids. I think that is awful cuz signing deaf children are people too. Is that a bad thing to want those parents to meet signing deaf people too?

No, I dont know the majority of deaf people's experience but I have learned a lot in the past 10 years about educational practices. Big difference.

Again, I have always stated that U and others dont have to agree with the BiBi philosophy and I wont hold it against u so I dont understand what is the problem here. I am talking about MY opinions based on what I have seen.

If it means getting those kids to achieve the highest literacy rates as possible, u bet I will do it. I am not going to hold anyone back because others didnt have the same opportunity. So what if they end up with better literacy skills than any of us? This is about the kids not about us. Any deaf adult now has the power to improve their literacy skills cuz they are responsilbe for themselves but me as a teacher, I am responsible for those kids" literacy skills so I am going to do what it takes to give them that opportunity that myself and others didnt have.

Like I told u, I am happy that the TC program worked for u.

One last thing...I NEVER EVER say that deaf people have failed...I always say that the EDUCATIONAL system failed them. BIG difference. Pls dont twist my words.

U need to stop telling me what I have or have not experience or what I know nor dont know. U can ask but dont tell me just like I never will tell u what or what u dont experience. Just like u assumed that I never been in a mainstreamed program when I explained my experiences being in a TC program at the public school. Instead of asking u said "For sure, U weren....." I really didnt appreciate that.

If I see a program that gives everything to all deaf children regardless of the degree of their hearing loss, I will believe in it more thant the other approaches. It is up to the parents but for me, it is about the kids' needs first.

U keep saying that deaf people who learn ASL first have poorer oral skills than those who learned oral. Fine, that's your experience and I will take your word for it. In my experience, I have met many ASL users who were able to develop oral language. Nope, not all but the same with those who were placed in oral only programs were unable to develop oral language.

Last of all, I have never said that any deaf is better than another. I am talking about better deaf education for the future generation of kids. If that enables them to have higher literacy skills than many of us, so what? I would be happy for them. If u dont like it, that's your opinion.

Now, I am off to go teach and I will continue to feel good about myself about my job. Nobody is gonna make me feel shitty about my job. I only care about the students when I am on the job.

Have a good day.

All either one of us is doing is advocating for a system that allows deaf children to develop their intellectual potential to the highest degree. I fail to see what is so wrong in expecting that deaf children receive the best educational services available that allows them to learn and use knowledge to the best of their abilities.

loml · 01-22-2008, 02:28 PM

originally posted by shel90

Quote:

I am talking about better deaf education for the future generation of kids.

shel90- Does your vision of a better deaf education system include all tools, such as cueing English via Cued Speech for language and literacy?

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalista

I have none toleration with oralism people because they tend to misunderstand me due to my sign language is accelerated. I hate to repeat what I said. It causes our communication breakdown. It is so frustrated.

Most of the time hearing people intend to repeat what they're saying to a deaf person, and how would you feel if a hearing person says " I hate talking to deaf people cause I have to repeat what I say to them".

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Nobody can predict the future, what they can really do is try out a program and see how well they will adjucted, but forcing them in a ASL only program is not the answer, they will struggle with speech, in my opinion.

Nobody is forcing them to be ASL only otherwise we wouldnt have speech nor Language Arts classes. That would be illegal to have an ASL only program. I would be against it.

However, I have never heard of an ASL only program for children unless it is used as a foreign language class.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I withnessed Bi-Bi children in real life and support Bi-Bi education fully over oral without sign language.

I can tell from Bi-Bi children's moviation good... They know what they really are and moviate to learn anything including speech and English. They have one hearing and one deaf teacher in class room.

I noticed that some American school for the deaf with interpreters around which we doesn't have because our teachers can sign and speak on the same time and have deaf assistance with them in class room where I grew up.

My hubby's time - no sign language in school but oral all the time... He has less moviate and busy to watch his teacher's lips to neglect his education bit. At mine - I watch what hearing teacher sign and know what she said... All hearing teachers use sign and speak on the same time that's how we learn from them. I cannot follow anyone who sign without speak. It's me. I feel comfortable when anyone use sign language with speak on the same time. At small children, hearing teacher who can sign, have deaf assistance to be with her to convince small deaf children.

I saw how Bi-Bi program is and support it fully. More and more support Bi-Bi education around Germany.

Also, several Eurpoean countries education for hearing kids are BiBi themselves, right? From my understanding, English is taught as a 2nd language?

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

How was the children's speech skills in the bi bi program that you have witness?

What do you think of Total Communication the method is the use of sign language, speech and lip reading. The teachers and interpreters use signs and speech.

But in bi bi teachers don't use their speech only ASL but they do have a speech class in a bi bi program. That's why I'm not so sure about bi bi program.

How do u expect teachers to give the children the appropriate models of language using speech and ASL in the classroom? The only time a teacher can do that is if they go from ASL to speech but not all children understand speech from the teacher and will miss out on their education.

If the teacher uses both at the same time, then it would be no longer ASL nor English..it would be Sim-Comming.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

I realized that Shel, there are hearing kids that are failing in school too for vary of reasons, not only deaf kids. there's pros and cons in every school educational. Every person has their own opinion of how to 'fix' education, All one can do is raise their children the best they can, give them the right "tools" and hope that they use them.

How is this post related to "children struggle in an educational environment" ?

I'm sorry to see that my post upset you, I won't say no more.

That question was directed to Rick48 not u. None of your posts upsetted me.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalista

You are correct, I have no against oralism people. It is so frustrated with them when they are narrowmind. I try so hard to educational them how ASL is important language for the Deaf Community. Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep.

Taught little Deaf children to learn how to speak. Where they learn in their education in ASL, their English structure will pick up really quickly by visual in hands sign language than read the lip. Read the lip tends to cause them misunderstanding.

Speak and sign language same time, it cause very confuse for the little children. I admitted that I use my voice when I sign. My son said, my voice is too loud and inappropriate words. So, I decide to turn off my voice, it makes my son feel more comfortable to visual in my ASL and facial impression.

That I agree with. The concepts are much more clearer for the children when using one language at a time.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Actually, Cheri, what I said was that, in my experience, I had not seen the Bi-Bi approach fail a student. That is very different from your quote bolded above. I have however, seen students that have been failed by the system of oralism and by the system of TC. I have seen students that have not been able to develop skills that are in line with their capabilities. In other words, I have seen students who were far brighter than their literacy skills demonstrated under the TC and oral systems.

As long as we continue to keep the educational system fractionalized, there will be gaps in the services that deaf children receive. Deaf children will continue to be educated at a level that is far below their intellectual capabilites. We need to find a system that provides more for these children so they have the opportunity to take what they need and use it to develop their natural intelligence. IMO, Bi-Bi is that system.

Isnt that what we want for Deaf children..to be educated using their most potential? I am lost by this argument...is it cuz of speech? Maybe in my mind, I see having knowledge, literacy skills, critical thinking skills, abstract thoughts, and problem solving skills coming first and then speech as a means for communicating with hearing people. Eventually deaf people who have speech skills will definitely use those skills when using spoken language. In the classroom, it is about language arts, math, and all those content areas. The speech classes are about speech development.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE=jillio;901497]

All either one of us is doing is advocating for a system that allows deaf children to develop their intellectual potential to the highest degree. I fail to see what is so wrong in expecting that deaf children receive the best educational services available that allows them to learn and use knowledge to the best of their abilities.[/QUOTE]

I know..I m lost on this one.

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

That I agree with. The concepts are much more clearer for the children when using one language at a time.

Please do not speak for all deaf children, I wasn't confusing using oral and ASL at the same time, and my children are hearing, I use both my voice and sign.

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

That question was directed to Rick48 not u.

And your point is? This still does not answer my question.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

originally posted by shel90

shel90- Does your vision of a better deaf education system include all tools, such as cueing English via Cued Speech for language and literacy?

I m leaning more towards to Visual Phonics...wait and see.

I do not rule out CS. I just see it as a good teaching tool for some children.

U say that there is a 100% guarantee with CS but my coworkers who have had personal experience said that it benefits some children not all. I guess I will have to personally experience it myself before I make an opinion. However, I am learning more and more about Visual Phonics and maybe using that as a teaching tool.

With my class using ASL to teach English is working out just fine. Maybe CS for other different kinds of learners in the future.

As long as both languages are kept separate and pure for the children, I am willing to try new things. If it comes to mixing both, I wont cuz of my experience with it.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Please do not speak for all deaf children, I wasn't confusing using oral and ASL at the same time, and my children are hearing, I use both my voice and sign.

Did I say all deaf children? Ever think about maybe I was talking about my students?

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

And your point is? This still does not answer my question.

Sure, I would be happy to answer your question. I was just curious if Rick ever interacted with parents of nonimplanted children cuz he kept talking about his experience with implanted children.

As for Deaf parents of Deaf kids, when I asked him about that I had forgotten that he shared his experience on how the Deaf community called him child abusers. I remembered that later so Rick doesnt have to answer that one since he already gave his reason.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Please do not speak for all deaf children, I wasn't confusing using oral and ASL at the same time, and my children are hearing, I use both my voice and sign.

Deaf children arent hearing. Hearing children still can use their ears to hear you speak. My daughter doesnt watch the signs if I use my voice with signing cuz she is relying on her natural sense for communication. Deaf children dont have that so for me, it makes sense that they would rely on the visual language.

I thought u signed SEE not ASL? Pls correct me if I am wrong.

I couldnt use both at the same time, cuz I wouldnt be signing in ASL nor speaking good English.

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Deaf children arent hearing. Hearing children still can use their ears to hear you speak. My daughter doesnt watch the signs if I use my voice with signing cuz she is relying on her natural sense for communication. Deaf children dont have that so for me, it makes sense that they would rely on the visual language.

I thought u signed SEE not ASL? Pls correct me if I am wrong.

I couldnt use both at the same time, cuz I wouldnt be signing in ASL nor speaking good English.

Just because I use SEE doesn't mean I don't know ASL. I'm deaf also so I rely on both oral and sign.

Like I said earlier, everyone is different.

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Sure, I would be happy to answer your question. I was just curious if Rick ever interacted with parents of nonimplanted children cuz he kept talking about his experience with implanted children.

As for Deaf parents of Deaf kids, when I asked him about that I had forgotten that he shared his experience on how the Deaf community called him child abusers. I remembered that later so Rick doesnt have to answer that one since he already gave his reason.

He's not a child abuse, he choose to raise his children the way he sees fit. I'm not trying to defend him or anyone else, but I'm sick of people putting others down. it's getting old and annoying.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

He's not a child abuse, he choose to raise his children the way he sees fit. I'm not trying to defend him or anyone else, but I'm sick of people putting others down. it's getting old and annoying.

I know that...not my words, his words from his first experience with the Deaf community 20 years ago. I am just quoting him and I dont blame him for it.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Just because I use SEE doesn't mean I don't know ASL. I'm deaf also so I rely on both oral and sign.

Like I said earlier, everyone is different.

Ok, that was why I asked. Thanks for clarifying it for me.

I know that everyone is different and I accept that.

Just want all deaf children to recieve equal access to education just like hearing kids are in the classroom. Outside of the classroom, that is all up to them and their families.

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Just want all deaf children to recieve equal access to education just like hearing kids are in the classroom. Outside of the classroom, that is all up to them and their families.

I have absolutely no problem with that either.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

I have absolutely no problem with that either.

If down the road, a new educational methodolgy was designed better than the BiBi and meets all deaf children's needs regardless of the degree of their hearing loss, I would take it. It is all about room for improvement.

When I was studying to be a teacher, I was taught "The moment a teacher stops learning, it is when the teacher is no longer effective." We, teachers, are always striving to learn more about new ideas and methodologies. I know that I am still learning and my students do teach me daily about how I can improve myself as a teacher. I just wont settle for less.

If the day comes that a device is invented that make all deaf kids 100% hearing, then of course, I will accept that the oral-only route would be the way to go. As long as no student is constantly missing out info and put at risk for language delays.

**Angel** · 01-22-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

If down the road, a new educational methodolgy was designed better than the BiBi and meets all deaf children's needs regardless of the degree of their hearing loss, I would take it. It is all about room for improvement.

When I was studying to be a teacher, I was taught "The moment a teacher stops learning, it is when the teacher is no longer effective." We, teachers, are always striving to learn more about new ideas and methodologies. I know that I am still learning and my students do teach me daily about how I can improve myself as a teacher. I just wont settle for less.

If the day comes that a device is invented that make all deaf kids 100% hearing, then of course, I will accept that the oral-only route would be the way to go. As long as no student is constantly missing out info and put at risk for language delays.

I'm very glad you said that Shel90, you just put a nice smile on my face here. Thank you! and I agree.

jillio · 01-22-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

If down the road, a new educational methodolgy was designed better than the BiBi and meets all deaf children's needs regardless of the degree of their hearing loss, I would take it. It is all about room for improvement.

When I was studying to be a teacher, I was taught "The moment a teacher stops learning, it is when the teacher is no longer effective." We, teachers, are always striving to learn more about new ideas and methodologies. I know that I am still learning and my students do teach me daily about how I can improve myself as a teacher. I just wont settle for less.

If the day comes that a device is invented that make all deaf kids 100% hearing, then of course, I will accept that the oral-only route would be the way to go. As long as no student is constantly missing out info and put at risk for language delays.

Tousi · 01-22-2008, 07:42 PM

I think people are getting their feelings hurt or are becoming defensive for the wrong reasons. They should try to see that educators who care are trying to find the best way to educate deaf children so that the success rate will be higher than it was in the past. In the meantime, we respect the adults who have chosen the path that they are on now which is an entirely different thing as to what should be discussed here and that is the best methodology be utilized for deaf children today.

**shel90** · 01-22-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

I'm very glad you said that Shel90, you just put a nice smile on my face here. Thank you! and I agree.

Thanks. Just need to clarify on where we all stand. It seems like the end result, we all want the educational system to meet all deaf children's need so they can have the same rights as heairng children.

I had practically no right in the educational system. I was just thrown in so it was either I swam or sank. I barely kept my head above the water.

On my space, I was telling on of my friends on my list who went to HS with me about my experiences. She said that she thought I could hear everything. I told her that I faked it big time and she said "Wow..I had no idea." Now, her eyes have been opened about deaf people and has been asking me a lot of questions about ASL, CIs and Deaf schools.

01-22-2008, 07:02 PM	#224 (permalink)
shel90 Let It Snow!!!! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,303 Blog Entries: 3	[QUOTE=jillio;901497] All either one of us is doing is advocating for a system that allows deaf children to develop their intellectual potential to the highest degree. I fail to see what is so wrong in expecting that deaf children receive the best educational services available that allows them to learn and use knowledge to the best of their abilities.[/QUOTE] I know..I m lost on this one. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

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01-22-2008, 01:01 PM	#212 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 15,733	Kalista says: "Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep." See? This is NOT what Deafhood is supposed to be about. No body is any better than anybody else!

01-22-2008, 07:42 PM	#239 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 15,733	I think people are getting their feelings hurt or are becoming defensive for the wrong reasons. They should try to see that educators who care are trying to find the best way to educate deaf children so that the success rate will be higher than it was in the past. In the meantime, we respect the adults who have chosen the path that they are on now which is an entirely different thing as to what should be discussed here and that is the best methodology be utilized for deaf children today.