Miss-Delectable

Best of luck learning ASL! Hope you'll find it enjoyable. Perhaps your daughter could do this with you. It'll widen your circle, I would guess.

Deaf individuals, in general, are more patient with newbie signers, so don't worry on that score. However, it has been my experience that hearing people, who are asked to repeat, are often not the most patient.

How often do you get that comment 'never mind', 'I'll tell you later' etc?
We get that sort of comment so many time.

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Liebling:-)))

No, there're difference between ASL and BSL. Don't forget that I born and raised in England. Many Europeans know American way of use sign language only without speaking.

BSL - sign language with speak (still speaking with or without voice).
ASL - sign language without speak (no even speaking).

I withnessed several Americans in real life here in Germany. They use ASL without speaking, just sign language without lip movement. It's hard for me to watch their just signing. I visited USA last July 2007 and met ADers in real life and told them that their way of sign language with speaking (I am not interesting either they use voice or not) is the same as many European countries. We understood each other prefect only when they speak on the same time as signing. ADers, I met in real life give me right that some American's way for use sign language without speaking. They do sometimes but with me, they signing with speak and also other ADers as well.

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Liebling:-)))

Huh?

Could you please show me where I mention English in my previous posts? It could be that I overlook my post? I only know that I said that the school for Deaf & Dumb develop sign language only which mean is no speech therapy including.

Of course there're Deaf and mute children in the world who don't know that they can train to speak or being lipread until they learn from Germany that deaf children can learn to speak with the help from speech therapy.

Anyway, I met Americans in real life and told me that they use ASL without speaking which we Europeans doesn't. We prefer to use speak (no matter either with or without voice) and sign on the same time.

Okay here is link... Deaf history 1800’s

Horace Mann, 1796-1859, was a believer in state school. In 1837, he became secretary of the first Massachusetts school board. “Two years later, he brought about the opening of the first American Teacher’s Training College at Lexington, Ky.” He went to Europe to visit schools for the Deaf and was amazed to see how well Deaf children were lipreading and using speech in the German schools. Returning to America, he published a report of his findings. This interested parents who began to demand speech for their Deaf children.


Samuel Gridley Howe, 1801-1876 - Director of the Massachusetts for the Blind. He taught a Deaf-blind child by means of the manual alphabet. Howe accompanied Horace Mann to Europe to visit the Deaf schools. In 1864, “Howe and other interested men petitioned the Massachusetts General Court for an act to incorporate an oral school for the Deaf in the state.” “It was defeated through the influence of the school in Hartford.”

Jacobo Rodriguez Pereira, 1715-1780 - The greatest teacher of the Deaf in France. Pereira never had more than twelve pupils at one time. He offered two courses. “For the poorer and more numerous clients, he gave a short course of fifteen months which covered the current necessities for living.” The wealthy and more intelligent stayed four or five years. They were given a superior course. These pupils became successful and famous. He was very secret about his work that even his family did not know his methods. When he died, no one knew how to continue his work. His motto was “There will be no more Deaf mutes. There will be Deaf speaking ones.”


Deaf History

Again, Cheri is correct about oral education was first founded in Germany before spread out to many countries in the world. What Cheri said mean is speech therapy - training to speak and read other lips, etc. I really have no idea why you brought those subject "English" up. Of course we learn how to write English. Its sign language development without speech development, we are refer to.

Another link

Ohio School for the Deaf - History

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Liebling:-)))

Yes I know the oral education was first founded in Germany but I don't know the name until you mentioned Samuel here... Thank you for mention his name here.

Oral education was around in Germany for a long time until Bi-Bi education comes around 90s. Why? because the school for the deaf (oral) are less and less since we have a lot of deaf children who receive CI and went to CI school. We call it "hearing" school so they founded bi-bi program in deaf school. They feel comfortable to use sign language with speaking. We like to see them to use sign language and speaking on the same time and also learn to read anyone's lips than just oral without sign language all the time.

They learn to accept what deaf children really are instead change them what they wants.

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Liebling:-)))

Excuse me, I know that you asked about hearing children. I am sorry that my answer about Bi-Bi education what and how I know about deaf and hearing children involvement is not good enough. What's an exact answer, what you expect me to ?

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Liebling:-)))

I am not interesting to know either you speak with or without voice when you signing but I am only interesting to know either you speak (lip movement) with sign language or not.

I use signing with or without voice sometimes to deaf people and children the same because they should know what I am. I don't switch my languages different when I meet them but I use what I am... but I only switch my languages when I met British friends and use BSL with them and speak English with my British family. I sign and speak German with my boys and hubby.

Yes I has to agree with you about ASL improvement because I noticed the same as well. My my boys & co-worker told me to not use voice when I signing with speak to them sometimes. Of course I asked them that I use just sign language without speak? They said noooooooooooooo and want to see my lip movement... I signing and speak with voice to my boys when they were babies... until they noticed that my deaf friends & we signing with speak without voice each other and feel comfortable to watch us... also my hubby & I as well... My deaf friends suggest that my boys should apply for be interpreters as their second jobs for evenings since we know that we have few interpreters around Bavaria. I admit that I hope they would but it's up to them.

It's wonderful to know that you support bi-bi for your son. Yes, it's normal for deaf children to sign without voice but without speaking?

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CutePommie

Jillio. am afraid that i does to agree with Lib. here that ASL and BSL are not same no it totally different as yes it true that BSL user does always use with lip movement like lipreads with or without voices . Interesting me that USA does speak english as like in UK and when i look at the video of ASL signer about everything whom i like to interesting to know what goes on like stories etc everythng but i cant able to understand because of no lips movement it hard for me to follow what ASL signers as it nothing just went over my head. But know it seem to be offense as am sorry for it but it is true that how we UK deaf people see it said oh god ASL signers dont have any of facial expressions or body languages.
Myself i signs with lipread as am very good at it but can not to speak use voice like hearies no .. as most of my families does to be understand when i speak to them with my voice becuase they got used do it since i was little also my kids does to used do to hear my voice when i speak to them like when they were in other room i call out to speak use my voice like * (call out my son name) want drink? then my son come out said in sign to me * yes please* or he often use lipread too. Also call out for say * hey dinner ready* they came into the dining room to sat or when the phone ring with flashing lights and i check the ID displayer and it for my son or my daughter i just call them say hey call my son or daughter's name then It phone for you* etc.
Yes it is true nothing so like same way between of ASL or BSL if ASL signers use with their mouth movement as lipread i surely will understand.

Sorry Jillio that how it is ... hope it will be clarilify to understand what am on about for you..

Have a nice day

Liebling:-)))

for answer my question.

Yes, Americans said the same thing what you said here. I find interesting...

I rather to watch deaf's lip movement (speaking) on the same time as they signing. I cannot follow them when they signing without speaking. DreamDeaf teased me sometimes because she know I can't understand her without speaking but just sign language... I relieved to see many ADers signed with speak to me.

We use signing with speaking on the same time (no matter either with or without voice). We did the same to deaf people and our hearing children because hearing children should know what we are. They won't bore when we visit to any deaf festivals because they know their natural languages.

Anyway, I met American solider whom he married deaf Korean lady at 80s. She sign Korean language without speaking. I asked her why she don't speak? She said that she feel comfortable to sign with her hands - why should she move her lips for? No speech therapy in Korea.



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Liebling:-)))

I am glad that you support my post to correct Jillio. I hoping British ADers would post when they read my post here. I am glad you posted to prove that I am not alone... Your description is an exact same as me...

Very true, I can speak but not prefect voice like hearing.

At first I was nervous to think how to communicate with ADers when I planned to go USA to meet them last July 2007 because my friends teased me and wish me good luck to communicate with Americans. We know they use signing without speaking.. I met DreamDeaf & Mizzou at Airport... I was total speechless that they SPEAK on the same time they signing... I don't care about their different language but understood their lips prefect... They laughed when I told them... They insured me to not worry and will support me when some ADers signing me without speaking. I met many ADers - they sign with speaking... wow... which not same I met Americans in Germany. It's very hard to follow their just sign language development. I told them - they laughed... They asked me to correct Europeans (I mean British and German friends) that some Americans can sign with speaking like Europeans, not all Americans. I did.

I learn ASL as the same as they learn German sign language... They watch my lip movement when I signing. They said that they have no problem to understand me.

Yes, that's right - I use voice when I call my boys from upstair or other room for dinner or something...

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Cheri

When I first did some reseach on a bi bi program not only finding out that they do have speech class for the deaf children, the teachers do not use their voice while signing with the children. They use strictly ASL as their primary langauge and it is use to teach English as their second langauge as reading and writing, again that is in ASL. Shel who is a teacher in the bi bi program does not use her voice in the classroom while using ASL, because she feels that it will confused the deaf children. I don't see how it could, because it is up to them if they want to watch the teacher's lips and signs the same time or just watch the signs only.

That's why I feel that this bi bi program is based on soley ASL in the classroom if no speech is used with ASL. You see what I'm saying? I hope that you could understand me better than they could.

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Tousi

Yes, and this is the reason one cannot communicate in two separate languages (ASL & English) simultaneously.

Liebling:-)))

Cheri, Yes, I know what you mean... Honestly, I am not sure either American bi-bi program is similar as German bi-bi program since I read Shel90's posts here. I only know that sign languages are their first language before English or German languages but they must have hearing teacher and deaf teacher in class room. Yes, they do have speech therapy. I think it's for only one hour twice or more a week... (I am not sure how often they attend speech therapy a week).

All what I said in my previous posts what I know from withnessed them is: One hearing teacher signing with voice to deaf children and one deaf teacher signing with speaking (no matter either with voice nor without) in class room. I hearing teacher for signing deaf children which most oral education in the past doesn't.

How could deaf teacher confused deaf children with sign language without voice when the deaf children can't hear? You know that deaf people use sign languages with or without voice what they feel like to but should use lip movement. I beleive it's good habit for the deaf children to read people's lips then they could be good lipreaders. IMO.

Cheri, Yes, it's up to deaf children either they can watch teacher's sign language only or sign with speak on the same time. It depend on deaf children's moviation.

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vallee

Just a quick note. At my class last night, they sign and voice. They had to turn off voices because I read lips. It was difficult. Try changing 36 years of habits!

I have been HOH/deaf almost my whole life - if I had a dollar for each time I heard those comments..........well you get the picture!

Class is taught by two deaf adults(deaf since birth) and a cert. ASL instructor.

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shel90

Cuz u are all saying ASL only.

So, there is no such thing as an ASL only program..only as a foreign language requirement in high school and college where the classes are just taught with ASL only...meaning no English and no speech in those classes.

Maybe in the old days they had ASL only programs cuz the educators believed that deaf people werent capable of learning how to read and write nor develop speech.

In todays times, all programs that use ASL include English and speech classes.

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shel90

Just wanted to know how hearing kids are taught in the European countries, that's all.

I already know how deaf kids are taught.

Never mind. ...thanks anyway.

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shel90

Right..

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shel90

I am more than happy to answer any more questions about how the BiBi approach works.

I think it has been pretty much summed up.

Now, I am gonna go and get ready for work. Feels like I am coming down with a cold cuz it is going around work

Have a good day everyone.

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CutePommie

No it is not same way as ASL and BSL and if it is same way and how come i can not able to understand ASL
I used to be BSL tutor for 11 years and yes no need to use
voice because it does help the students to learn by use their eyes instead of ears, because we deaf people only use their eyes to watch the sign langauge, And the students asked me does i use my voice I replied yes I does and while during on the course am not allow to use the voice and it very important because deaf people can not hear when hearing people speak like eg: when hearing person say 50 and deaf person not sure they mean it is 15 or 50 because it look similar so it very important for student to understand that it does look similar like 15/50. 14/40. So you try then you will understand what i does mean.
To be honest there are nothing much similar between ASL and BSL.
Yet I do use my voice with signs only for some reason lol when am angry or piss off

CutePommie

You are welcome. And that good that you have met your A'der friends that does support you while you was in USA last summer. Bless them.. yet know it does fun to learn each other ...

Tousi

Where did I say BSL?

jillio

I realize that there are differences in BSL and ASL. However, both are forms of sign language, complete in and of themselves, and not manual representations of English. In the link I provided, the gentleman in the video is signing without voice, therefore without speaking, in the same way that an American signer would sign ASL without voice. You and Cheri kept saying that BSL was always sign + speech, unless I misunderstood your posts, so I was simply offering an example of BSL sithout voice.

jillio

Thank you. I'm glad someone understands what I am saying.

jillio

The signs may be different just as the signs in SLL, NSL, FLS, ASL, BSL, and any other signed language or spoken language will differ. However, the fact that they are pure languages and not interpretations of the spoken language of that country makes them the same in their method of communication. I did not mean that all the signs in ASL and BSL are the same. What I meant was, they are both complete languages and not interpretations of the spoken language, and therefore, are signed without voice when they are used in their pure forms. And you have confirmed my point. They are signed without voice. Cheri and Leibling were saying that BSL is always signed with voice....sign and speech together.

jillio

We understand what you are saying Cheri, but English and ASL are two separate languages. That is why they are not used together. To use them together, the teacher would have to speak in ASL syntax, which is not a proper model of English and not useful when teaching English grammar and syntax, or sign in English syntax, which is not a proper model of ASL, and is useless in teaching ASL syntax and grammar.

jillio

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

The formal education of children who are deaf began in the United States in the late 1800s, when Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet brought French Sign Language to the United States. Gallaudet was instrumental in bringing together a large number of children who were deaf to be educated at a new school, the American School for the Deaf and Dumb (Gannon, 1981). These children brought with them a variety of homemade signs. These home-made signs, combined with the French Sign Language to which these children were exposed, began to transform into a new and different language that came to be known as "The Sign Language." Gallaudet convinced legislators that children who were deaf could learn when given the opportunity to be educated using sign language. As a result, college programs were created that would prepare teachers to educate children who are deaf, and schools for the deaf began to be legislatively mandated in most states (Gannon). These state schools for the deaf came to be seen as a haven by individuals who were deaf. The school for the deaf was home, a place where children who were deaf could freely communicate using sign language, a visual-spatial language that was developed by individuals who were deaf.

THE ORAL VS. MANUAL DEBATE

In September 1880, the second International Congress of the Education of the Deaf was held in Milan, Italy. This conference brought a change in the methods used to educate children who are deaf throughout the world when participants voted against the use of sign language in educational programs (Gannon, 1981;Winefield, 1987). Educators, including many American educators, were convinced that educating a child who is deaf using sign language was an injustice because sign language was not a true language. In the opinion of educators at that time, sign language was just a system of gross gestures with which people who were deaf communicated. Educators felt that in order for children who were deaf to be educated well, they must learn to speak and use the language of the hearing. In the United States, as in most countries, the oral method became the primary method of instruction for educating children who were deaf or hard of hearing. Sign language, however, was alive and well among deaf people. Even at institutions where oral methods of education were being used, sign language was often the social language used among the deaf students in attendance (Winefield).

Although sign language was still present in the educational system, it became the "wicked stepchild" of deaf education (Gannon, 1981). Children who "failed" to be educated with oral methods were placed in classrooms using sign language. Sign language was still not thought to be a true language by either hearing or deaf individuals. The work of linguist William Stokoe changed all that. Stokoe took an interest in sign language after working at Gallaudet University in Washington, D.C., the only liberal arts university for the deaf in the world. His research revealed that the sign language used by deaf individuals in the United States was indeed a language (Stokoe, 1960). Stokoe was able to identify syntactical and grammatical foundations of sign language that were the equivalent of English and all other spoken languages. His groundbreaking research brought new interest and intrigue to the language of the deaf. What was once called "the Sign Language" was now given a new name, American Sign Language (ASL).
Huefner, D.S. & Pittman, Paula. (2001). Will the courts go Bi-Bi? Exceptional Children. 01-Jan-01.

CutePommie

Oh well never mind .... I better back off cos waste time and life is too short .. I am doing what i know and i go this way you others go other way that fine no need to rub each other's nose.



Have a nice day...
Bye !!

Angel

I know how you feel CutePommie,

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Tousi

Nobody's insulting here; don't go away and leave things unfinished; we each need to understand one another and really, really try. Begin with ASL and English are two SEPARATE languages; therefore, one cannot use them both at the same time.

deafdyke

Correction on this. There ARE some kids who Sign only, but they are very few in number. The gross overall majority of kids who Sign, also get classes to equipt them with oral language abilty.

jillio

Exactly. There are some kids who utilize sign only as a communication method, but their educational programs also offer speech classes.