Originally Posted by jillio

At the risk of getting another bash session going by other posters........here goes. We've been able to discuss things reasonably lately, so I'm going to take you at your word!

No, I don't agree with calling CI implanted children robots, any more than I agree with hearing children making fun of deaf children in the mainstream classroom. That kind of behavior is just not acceptable to me.

As far as looking out for the child's welfare.....I don't think that Maria meant that as it maybe sounded. I believe that hearing parents who opt for CI on an infant have often times rushed their decision a bit, and there are those who haven't taken the time or been provided the opportunity to have all of the information available or been exposed to alternatives. Mind you, I'm saying some, not all.

Despite the disagreements in philosophy that we have, jackie, I don't believe that I have ever referred to your children as "robots". Our disagreement is not in the use of CI, and shel and I have both said many times that CI is a parent's decision. I had reasons for not going the CI route with my son, just as you had reasons for going the CI route with your children. But those are my reasons, and my child. Same with you.

I do think that this article at the beginning of the thread, however, is an example of the disservice that is still done to some kids in the mainstream. My concern is not whether this child has a CI, or doesn't have a CI, but that those responsible for her education understand that she is not a hearing child simply because she has a CI. When that attitude is allowed to exist, it is the deaf CI child that suffers, because they are not provided with a proper education. And the parent that allows an educator to teach their child with that attitude, and doesn't co anything to correct those misperceptions, has done a disservice to their child as well.

I hope that answers your questions.

Originally Posted by Buffalo

Touche!

I often think that the parents would go for CI for their child because they are afraid of sign language, afraid of what other people think of them using sign language. Peer pressure can be the downside.

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I respect you but I also beleive the children are successful with or without CI and HA.

Look at many deaf people - lead normal life like hearing people before CI comes.

No, it's not CI or HA itself who make the children successful but the children themselves and their own moviation.

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

car is not a surgery.

Originally Posted by Maria

Originally Posted by shel90

Jackie...what Jillo just said goes the same for me. It is the attidudes that I am very much against and usually the parents (the ones I have encountered) got the CIs cuz they heard stories about it making deaf children talk and hear like hearing children. Many of them said that they were told that the CI will open doors for them. Like if they remained deaf, they wouldnt have any opportunities so to a parent hearing that kind of talk would indirectly pressure them to take the CI and oral route and refuse to use ASL. We had a workshop at work yesterday from 2 educators who are big names in the CI field for several years. I like the fact that they agreed that ASL wont interfere with spoken language development and getting both would be the best benefit for the children but on the other hand, they kept saying how CIs "open" more doors for deaf children. That felt a little biased cuz I know so many successful deaf people who dont have CIs. Makes me wonder if they use those words with the parents influencing their decisions. There was a little bit of that attitude that I am against happening at the workshop but I kept quiet cuz it wasnt the right time nor place to start an argument.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Thank you, I agree that a CI kid is not a hearing kid. Educators need to do more. Let me tell you a little story about my son who just entered high school. In his English class his teacher asked him a question. When my son was answering his question he was very excited about his answer. When my son gets excited his speech is not so great. There is this girl in his class that knows Victor is deaf and has a sister who is deaf. She overheard some kids making funny of the way he was talking. The teacher didn't hear these kids nor did my son. The girl told her mom and the mom told me. I spoke to the teacher. The teacher sent my son on errand then he spoke to the class. The students that were making fun of my son did not know my son was deaf. Being a parent is a learning experience. I have called IEPs for both of my children and am asking that in each and every class the psychologist comes to speak to them about my children, deafness, what they can expect, and how they can help them. I spoke to the kids attorney and he helped me figure out to write this into the IEP.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

. . . I know some of my daughter sigining only friends wish they were able to talk but it is too late for them.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Thank you, I agree that a CI kid is not a hearing kid. Educators need to do more. Let me tell you a little story about my son who just entered high school. In his English class his teacher asked him a question. When my son was answering his question he was very excited about his answer. When my son gets excited his speech is not so great. There is this girl in his class that knows Victor is deaf and has a sister who is deaf. She overheard some kids making funny of the way he was talking. The teacher didn't hear these kids nor did my son. The girl told her mom and the mom told me. I spoke to the teacher. The teacher sent my son on errand then he spoke to the class. The students that were making fun of my son did not know my son was deaf. Being a parent is a learning experience. I have called IEPs for both of my children and am asking that in each and every class the psychologist comes to speak to them about my children, deafness, what they can expect, and how they can help them. I spoke to the kids attorney and he helped me figure out to write this into the IEP.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Maybe some parents are afraid of sign language. You know I am not and that is not why I chose the CI for my kids. I want them to be oral if possible so that when they were teenagers or adults they can chose for themselves what world they want to live in. You see my children can now chose to live in the Deaf culture if they want they just take off their devices and that is it. But if I raised my children solely with sign language and then they wanted to be oral in their teenage years they wouldn't be able too. I know some of my daughter sigining only friends wish they were able to talk but it is too late for them.

Originally Posted by kalboy

Psychologist? Attorney? Wow. That's a bit of overkill isn't it? I couldn't speak that well and I had interpreters through out middle and high school. Not once my hearing classmates made fun of me nor any other deaf kids in my school. My teachers said nothing but good things on my IEP.

Sometimes its better to stand out and be different than to struggle and fit in.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I agree the only thing my kids can do that other successful signing only people can do is that they can communicate with the hearing society that they live in. Mind you if my children were signers you better believe me and my husband would be also. We actually do sign a little to be able to communicate with my children's friends.

Originally Posted by jillio

But jackie, the signing deaf can communicate with hearing society. Just not always in spoken language. The real question is not whether they can communicate with hearing society, but on whose terms.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Thank you, I agree that a CI kid is not a hearing kid. Educators need to do more. Let me tell you a little story about my son who just entered high school. In his English class his teacher asked him a question. When my son was answering his question he was very excited about his answer. When my son gets excited his speech is not so great. There is this girl in his class that knows Victor is deaf and has a sister who is deaf. She overheard some kids making funny of the way he was talking. The teacher didn't hear these kids nor did my son. The girl told her mom and the mom told me. I spoke to the teacher. The teacher sent my son on errand then he spoke to the class. The students that were making fun of my son did not know my son was deaf. Being a parent is a learning experience. I have called IEPs for both of my children and am asking that in each and every class the psychologist comes to speak to them about my children, deafness, what they can expect, and how they can help them. I spoke to the kids attorney and he helped me figure out to write this into the IEP.

Originally Posted by shel90

Right...never seen any deaf native signers completely isolate themselves from the hearing society completely. Maybe, they prefer to socialize with other signers but if hearing people prefer to socialize with other hearing people, what's wrong with deaf people preferring to socialize with other deaf people or signers? Nothing wrong with that..why is being around hearing people better than being around deaf people? We are all humans and we are all born with different personalities, interests, and backgrounds whether deaf or hearing. That is what I would never understand...that the use of ASL would completely isolate us from the hearing society???

Originally Posted by jillio

I am sorry that your son had to go through this situation, and this is the age when mainstreaming presents the biggest problems socially for deaf kids. There are a number of reasons for this, and I don't have the space to gothrough all of that here. I do want to caution you, however, on bringing in a psychologist to address a group of teen-agers in that way. To address the entire class is to make the difference between your son and the rest of his classmates even more obvious. If there are those in the class that are prone to the kind of behavior that you spoke of, then making it even more obvious will jsut add fuel to the fire. Perhaps it would be better if the students who are quilty met with the counselor or psychologist one on one. I firmly believe in educating those who are misinformed regarding deafness, but the teen age years are very tricky times in dealing with issues such as this because of the developmental stages that a teen ager is going through.

When my son was in k-4 he was mainstreamed. At the beginning of every school year, I went in and addressed the class, passed his FM system around, told them how to get his attention, etc. It worked well. But these were also young children, and the younger the child, the more accepting they are of any kind of difference. They tend to see similarities at that age, not difference.

Of course, this is your child and your decision. I'm just trying to give you some benefit of my particular area of expertise.

Originally Posted by jag

dd how many times do I have to request that you quit using 'wittle smashie' when describing kids who have disablities. I HAVE a child with mental retardation, I have a child who has hearing problems I have NEVER and NEVER will refer to my kids in such a nasty way. Exactly why do you have such a problem with parents who do go out and get what their child really needs.

Just a general FYI it is NOT unsual for parents to go through a grieving process and a time of denial after their child is diagnosed with a disablity. If you ask any 'expert' you'd know that. If you are trained in working with persons with disablities you should also be aware of that fact. Some go through that process rather quickly other take longer, and I'm sure some never get to complete exceptance but they are very few.

A parent whom you think of a not excepting their childs disablitly because of their pushing for things you seem to think they shouldn't try for is actually not necessarily in denial but more likely to be very informed and not willing to back down to much. One must remember that many of the teachers and staff who are involved with IEP's are trained to use the Delphi technique. Read up on it. It's not just getting parents to compromise but to take control of the whole process and guide the outcome to what is exceptable for the school. Parents who are informed don't fall into that trap. Those are the parents of your smashie I guess.

Have a nice day. And please quit referring to children with disablities as 'wittle smashie' because you don't agree with their parents way of educating them. thank you.

Originally Posted by Cheri

Oh I do understand, I have grew up oral half of my youngster life, and You can be able to teach a deaf child speech and language without cochlear implant. It's the truth.

Originally Posted by flip

You don't have any education of significance, right?

Originally Posted by shel90

Good advice, Jillo!

I agree about the age differences having an impact on the attitudes. During my elementary school years, I really didnt feel that much different due to socializing thru play but as I entered 5th grade, it was when the serious problems started. Not only with socially but in classes too when the curriculm got much more complex and missing out on critical key information.

My middle school years were just PURE hell and I would never repeat them again if someone offered me a million dollars. It is not worth the money cuz my self-esteem about myself and outlook on my life was completely destroyed during those years. I cant ever repeat those years again. I would probably just shoot myself or demand to be transferred to a deaf school.

Originally Posted by rick48

Do not disagree with you and I know many adults who did so but of those adults who subsequently got a ci later in life they universally wish that it had been available to them when they were children. I also know that for my daughter, a profoundly deaf child who did not benefit from HAs, it would have been a struggle for her to learn to speak without a cochlear implant and the fact that with it her language development literally exploded tells us something also.

I guess what I do not understand is the philosophy that suggests that she, or any child, should be made to struggle? Why? Where is the logic, and as some would suggest, the compassion or empathy, in saying that it is permissible for a child to use HAs that do not help the child at all and for the child to struggle to learn to speak and to hear but it is not permissible for the child to use a cochelar implant which, for our daughter did allow her to speak and to hear? As parents we chose to possibly eliminate or to alleviate that struggle. We were not made any guaranties as to what the ci would do for our child and we both had done our research to know that there were no such guaranties. I guess in the end, we just have a different philosophy as to how to raise a child. Not better or worse, just different.
Rick

Originally Posted by flip

You don't have any education of significance, right?

Originally Posted by jillio

Its really neat that you said that your problems started in the 5th grade, because it has been demonstrated that the socializtion problems will get bad for any child that is different in any way at jsut about the 5th or 6th grade in school. Its not the grade that is the magical number, but the age of the children int hat grade and the developmental tasks that they are working on at that point. Have you noticed also, that a lot of deaf kids get transferred to deaf schools from the mainstream at about the same age?

Originally Posted by shel90

Not really because the number of deaf kids getting referred to our school is about the same across all grade levels. We just got a new girl last week referred from the public school in the 5th grade. Last year, I got 3 new 1st graders referred from the public school in so it depends on each year.

Originally Posted by shel90

Right...never seen any deaf native signers completely isolate themselves from the hearing society completely. Maybe, they prefer to socialize with other signers but if hearing people prefer to socialize with other hearing people, what's wrong with deaf people preferring to socialize with other deaf people or signers? Nothing wrong with that..why is being around hearing people better than being around deaf people?

No I do not think there is nothing with that, what I mean is not socially but with every day life things like markets, banks etc.., The one thing that I love about my kids and their implants is that I can talk to them on the phone. When they are not at home like this summer where they were away for a week, I could talk to them on the phone and I knew how they were really feeling and yes I know I could have talked them through relay but for me I like hearing their voices.

We are all humans and we are all born with different personalities, interests, and backgrounds whether deaf or hearing. That is what I would never understand...that the use of ASL would completely isolate us from the hearing society???

Originally Posted by Maria

Originally Posted by Cheri

as soon as the child is in it's toddler years, Don't you think a child should know it's own world too?



I'm not talking about moving to another town, but down the road in life, they might come in contact with the deaf community, my question is are you going to be prepare? Will you take your deaf child to Deaf Expos?

Cheri I am not sure about Cloggy but let me tell you about my 2 CI kids, I do take them to Deaf Expo, my daughter was on a Deaf cheerleading squad. My daughter went to a prom with a Deaf young man that did not use his voice. My son's best friend only signs and comes from a Deaf family. Usually once a month I take my kids to local coffee place that has a Deaf event. During summer many many days I have Deaf kids swimming and spending the night at my home. Is this enough for you. My kids still have their implants still communicate mostly in oral language. What is your point.


Doesn't have to be everybody, It is important to understand the full nature of your child, You as a parent should give your child many options as possible that including signs as well. In my view it is vital for parents to learn sign as another form of communication.

Originally Posted by jillio

I don't think dd disagrees with any parent getting what their child needs. What dd disagrees with, and what so many of the posters disagree with is the parent who provides for their childe's needs based on what the parent needs fromthe child and not what the child needs from the parent. Piorities are reversed.

Originally Posted by jillio

Agree with you. And that has nothing to do with CI. It is all about attitude. Before CI came along, there were parents who put HAs on their children and isolated them from the deaf world and sign. HA, CI....doesn't matter.

And I think one thing that people seem to ignore hee.....there is a lot going on developmentally for a child when they are a baby and young child besides language acquisition. When you have to spend so much time and energy on drilling spoken language into that child, and teaching them to "hear", those other developmental needs to not get addressed, and that child ends up with delays other than just language. Is having a child that speaks so well that they can pass as hearing so important that you are justified in neglecting their other developmental needs?

Originally Posted by jag

Yes I have looked at it. I KNEW the risks when I was wheeled into the surgery. Everything is life has risks, either that or you hide in your home cowering because something might not go right.

I was only 32 when my daughter with ds was concieved. I was not in the age catagory that was concidered to be high risk for a child with ds. But anytime one gets pregnant one risks having a child with some type of significant delays or some type of noticiable error (like ds or deafness) in the genetic code. I say significant because in a visit with the genitisist when my third child was around 9 yrs old we learned that everyone born into this world has around 8 errors in the genetic coding that is in every cell in their body. Should we all hide and not risk having children because something might go wrong? Because of my hearing loss being hereditary all my kids have the risk of hearing loss, should I have not risked having children? Because they have a sister with ds should my other girls not risk having a child with ds?

We could go on and on about the risks associated with surgery or even just the risks of giving birth, therer are risks in labor and delivery some that even include having to perform surgery. I didn't have to take that risk, but it was a good choice. Life is a gift which includes many many risks.