Designing A Hearing Baby - Page 7

Audiofuzzy · 09-15-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Maria never say EVERYONE but herself. I see nothing wrong when she want to share her own experience and opinion. I must say that Maria is not first person who says this.

No Liebling because Cloggy asked Maria how does she knows SOME child will not be angry at his parents for refusing CI. she replied "because I know, look at me I'm deaf". I am sorry, but so what, so am I.
That is not the answer. She can not answer for someone, everyone.

And I asked you clear - if you could would you choose to be hearing or deaf? yes or no, please.
I know you are happy being deaf, but it's not what the question is about.

Quote:

Yeah ! I know ME through my own experience as bein' deaf. I want to share my experience. I prefer " deaf " rather than usin' CI to make me to hear.

Your experience is fine but just because you are happy without CI it doesn't mean that someone else is as happy knowing he/she could have been implanted but the parent refused. Someone else might be very UNhappy knowing his chance at hearing with CI was lost.
Even if that someone is generally happy deaf. Still he/she may wish for having been implanted.

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That HAs worked and soo much better than CI since

Better? how can you know? You have no way of knowing how CI would work for you unless you were implanted?

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U know it is funny...10 years ago, I would have probably had the same view as Audio fuzzy but since learning ASL, I view the same as u and learned to adapt without being able to hear well. Growing up up until 10 years ago, I hated my deafness and it was my dream to hear normally but now that dream has changed thanks to learning ASL. I am just more appreciative of what I have instead of focusing on what I dont have. I cant hear..no biggie and not the end of the world. There are far worst things in life, in my opinion.

I've never said it is not possible or not good, or unccessary to learn ASL while at the same time learning to hear and speech.
I always say expose the deaf child to ALL ways of communication, including latest technology.
After all not wanting to make use of available latest technology is like stubbornly sticking to use of drums and beats or smoke signals for long distance communication in the era of satellites, cellular phones and computers.

I am not saying one should strive to hear and speak only, I am saying use the best what's out there for you. If CI is out there, and it's useful, what are you waiting for?
Since when CI exlude use of ASL and being deaf in deaf culture? I am asking this over and over and nobody ever answers.

Quote:

Your comment re: residual hearing...quite obviously you have no understanding of the way in which residual hearing can and does operate inthe individual, nor of the many variables that affect its functional use.

I didn't read Rick's comment but I operate on residual hearing and let me tell you residual hearing is sh*t.
You do with it because you have to do with what you have, but if there was an option of sacrificing this residual crap for better hearing I would do it without hesistation.
And that regardless of me wanting or not to learn ASL and become culturally deaf.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))
Unfortunlately yes!!! It doesn´t work on some CI users. They shared their experiences with me in real life. I posted the stories about them in some threads. Some CI users are also members here & other forum as well and share their experiences. Unfortunlately, their posts are being ignored which is really sad.

Quote:

I know, Liebling. Soem people don't want to hear about the real life situations, because they can't bear to face the fact that everything is not wonderful and perfect.

"some people" know very well CI is not for everyone and about "real life situations", but the same "some people" are also aware WHY it doesn't work, as oppose to those who only care if "it doesn't work wonderfully" and add this fact (without knowing why) happily to their anti-CI blank ammuntion.

Fuzzy

jillio · 09-15-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofuzzy

First of all, what is residual hearing? when we talk about CI we talk about minimal amount of residual hearing, practically useless amount. keep it in mind while discussing it.

So, in whose judgement? In common sense judgement. And in the case of infants, it actually is possible to predict how well the child will be able to use that residual hearing- just take a look around. how many of those who were born deaf or with siginificant hearing loss suddenly turned around and become hearing? or even- their hearing improved greatly since then?
with sensori - neural loss, if anything the hearing gets progressively worse with time.

And that is exactly why it is so important to implant before these advances happen and finalize.

He also may hear and speak far better thru CI than thru HA with this residual..

Either way, the child will hear with CI, highly likely that it will hear much better than with HA. there is no loss in any way.

So why is she "pointing out"?? innocently? I don't think so. she points out "negative" effects because???
And the supposedly "negative effects" most likely have roots in lack of proper therapy afterwards (after implanting) or too late implanting.

Those who understand how the CI work NEVER portray it as "miracle cure". On the contrary, all of those who have some basic knowledge about CI point out THIS IS NO CURE, and IT DOES NOT RESTORE hearing.
Actually, it's you and the likes of you who try to portray CI as "miracle cure that fails".

more careful than you are, anyway.

HA absolutely offer, or provide, the same level of benefit - the same way all 60 watts bulb provide the same amount of light to anyone, or the way all Subaru Legacy provide the same horsepower to everyone.
How is one going to use a 60 watt bulb or Subaru Legacy is different matter.

you didn't understood the meaning of what I've said.

No I don't know ASL but this is visual language and while I am not saying it's easy-peasy to learn I am saying it's easier to learn to sign than to learn to differentiate sounds and learn to speak, especially for an adult.

Oh, you speak. So you DO communicate the way the hearing people communicate. you don't speak from the totally deaf experience.

Oh I see. Voice is not neccessary but still SOMETHING ELSE is, huh? either pen and paper, or interpreter (who can SPEAK and HEAR) or text pager. Wouldn't it be easier if your son could simply hear and speak more than he does now thanks to CI?
this does not stop him from being culturally deaf. it just simplify life for him.

How was I insulting? you told me other ways of coummunication are: vibration, odours, and other. I simply wondered how you can use those while communicating with hearing, non- signing person.

Or I see it pointless. anyway, CAN YOU answer?

Fuzzy

Rather than attempting to reply item by item, I will simply make a blanket statement that covers everything you have just stated. You knowledge is quite obviously minimal at best. Your understanding of the issues is minimal. You are attempting to discuss a topic that you would do far better learning about than talking about. However, you have made it quite obvious that youhave no interest in learning, but simply in spreading some kind of innaccurate and ill informed message. I would suggest that you go back and re-read the posts to which you have replied here, but it would be a waste of both your time, as you have no intention of attempting comprehension. And, it would be a waste of my time as well, as I have no interest in atempting to explain to one who appears to be completely satisfied with thier ignorance.

jillio · 09-15-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

LOL, I think I'm in this group too.

Welcome! You're in good company!

Cloggy · 09-16-2007, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I hope you don´t mind me to ask you some questions since you mentioned that HA doesn´t work on your daughter. Yes I read your website about your daughter but I didn´t find where I can read. I am here to ask you question... Can you link me some to match my questions here if I might overlook it?

Can you please explain why HA does not work on your daughter?
The fact that she did not react to any sounds sort of gave that away.

How old your daughter was when you & your wife found out about her deafness?
We had suspician when she was 6 months (approx) and got final confirmation when she was 13(approx).

How old is your daughter when she first wear HA?
Immediately when she was diagnosed.

How long your daughter wear HA before have a CI surgery?
She wore the HA's for a year, while learning sign. She never showed any benefit from the HA's..

The reason I am asking because many parents are being influence by the doctors that CI is better & sucessful with hear fast than HA which is not all true. Look at some parents are disappointed that CI doesn´t work on their child. Well, we feel we Lotte lost a year of hearing because she had to try HA's. That's a lot for a two-year old child. That's half her life without sound.
So, if it is obvious that the child cannot hear, I would advise to go straight for CI.!!

To me, it´s mainly important is take time and patience if the parents really want to help their child instead of "rush" their child with surgery because they think CI is fast and easier than HA.

Again, CI and HA are not interchangable. So, what you see as a "rush to get CI" might very well be a very wise decision to skip HA's and let the child hear as soon as possible.

Cloggy · 09-16-2007, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Rather than attempting to reply item by item, I will simply make a blanket statement that covers everything you have just stated. You knowledge is quite obviously minimal at best. Your understanding of the issues is minimal. You are attempting to discuss a topic that you would do far better learning about than talking about. However, you have made it quite obvious that youhave no interest in learning, but simply in spreading some kind of innaccurate and ill informed message. I would suggest that you go back and re-read the posts to which you have replied here, but it would be a waste of both your time, as you have no intention of attempting comprehension. And, it would be a waste of my time as well, as I have no interest in atempting to explain to one who appears to be completely satisfied with thier ignorance.

Amazing....
A deaf person, that used HA's and now CI is sharing experiences, explaining differences, and you have the nerve to say "You knowledge is quite obviously minimal at best. Your understanding of the issues is minimal."

Jillio, you might be studying for your masters degree, but your ignorence is amazing, as is your capability for insulting people when you cannot give them a direct answer..

Maria · 09-16-2007, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofuzzy

No Liebling because Cloggy asked Maria how does she knows SOME child will not be angry at his parents for refusing CI. she replied "because I know, look at me I'm deaf". I am sorry, but so what, so am I.
That is not the answer. She can not answer for someone, everyone.
Fuzzy

FYI, through my own experience I can give the answer. It's up to the parents to take my words for it or not. Without my experience, then I can not give the answer for them to know what it did in my life. Understand ?

A deaf child don't know what CI is out there UNLESS someone show it to deaf child and what CI is for. Understand ?

For example : A deaf child don't know what it is called when he/or she saw an airplane flyin' up in the sky UNLESS someone told her or him that it is an airplane. They could or might take that deaf child to the airport to show him/or her around. It's the visual thing a deaf child is seein' - never saw one before because she CAN'T hear what the sounds come from or what they are. Understand ?

Someone has to POINT at things for a deaf child to know what they are and teach her/or him a name for it. It's the HAND that show a deaf child and he/or she follows it.... meanin' what ? It's the eyes to look at through the hand's guidance, not voice. THAT'S what I experienced when I was a small child. I know WHAT every deaf child is doin' and what a deaf child is through. So, I don't think a deaf child will be angry at parents for refusin' CI. That's NOT a deaf child's FIRST approach UNLESS someone SHOW it to her/or him, then it will start discuss what CI is.

rick48 · 09-16-2007, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Rather than attempting to reply item by item, I will simply make a blanket statement that covers everything you have just stated. You knowledge is quite obviously minimal at best. Your understanding of the issues is minimal. You are attempting to discuss a topic that you would do far better learning about than talking about. However, you have made it quite obvious that youhave no interest in learning, but simply in spreading some kind of innaccurate and ill informed message. I would suggest that you go back and re-read the posts to which you have replied here, but it would be a waste of both your time, as you have no intention of attempting comprehension. And, it would be a waste of my time as well, as I have no interest in atempting to explain to one who appears to be completely satisfied with thier ignorance.

Fuzzy,

Do not take it personally. It is her standard response to anyone who disagrees with her and challenges her with valid points and observations. She cannot answer your questions not can she refute your personal experiences so she just tells you that you don't undrstand and insults you. We all see through her anyway. Just because she interprets and note takes for an underclassman with a ci does not give her any knowledge as to the ci. Her comments on residual hearing alone demonstate that.

She just tries to bully you in the hopes you will back down and go away. Please don't as you have a lot to share with others.
Rick

rick48 · 09-16-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

LOL, I think I'm in this group too.

Too bad, because none of you, including the author herself can explain her post (#38):

"The same way a parent tries to make their child hearing...through surgical intervention and lingustic restrictions."

You are a group that I am glad that I am not a part of but perhaps you (plural not just singualar), in your infinite wisdom, can tell us the surgical intervention that makes a child hearing?

I know its not the cochlear implant for children are deaf before the operation adn are deaf afterwards.

Cloggy · 09-16-2007, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

................
Someone has to POINT at things for a deaf child to know what they are and teach her/or him a name for it. It's the HAND that show a deaf child and he/or she follows it.... meanin' what ? It's the eyes to look at through the hand's guidance, not voice. THAT'S what I experienced when I was a small child. I know WHAT every deaf child is doin' and what a deaf child is through. So, I don't think a deaf child will be angry at parents for refusin' CI. That's NOT a deaf child's FIRST approach UNLESS someone SHOW it to her/or him, then it will start discuss what CI is.

Ah, I understand:
You will NEVER show a child a CI, unless it's a "failure" and in the rare occasion the child sees another child with CI talking to someone else, you'll explain how bad it is, that actually, you cannot understand speech with CI, the people the child watches are just pretending...
Yes, I can see how a deaf child would be really glad NOT to have CI.....

Until the child enters the real world and sees for itself that a child that grew up hearing with CI has no problems hearing and speaking with anyone. That in fact, the child with CI was born around the same time... and that it means that the child also had the possibility to "get" CI. But, for some reason - the parents decided that he/she had to grow up deaf.
"Mum... Dad.... ... why did you decide that I had to grow up deaf?" .... "I could have heared AND spoken sign-language with you".... "Is it too late to get CI now?"

shel90 · 09-16-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Ah, I understand:
You will NEVER show a child a CI, unless it's a "failure" and in the rare occasion the child sees another child with CI talking to someone else, you'll explain how bad it is, that actually, you cannot understand speech with CI, the people the child watches are just pretending...
Yes, I can see how a deaf child would be really glad NOT to have CI.....

Until the child enters the real world and sees for itself that a child that grew up hearing with CI has no problems hearing and speaking with anyone. That in fact, the child with CI was born around the same time... and that it means that the child also had the possibility to "get" CI. But, for some reason - the parents decided that he/she had to grow up deaf.
"Mum... Dad.... ... why did you decide that I had to grow up deaf?" .... "I could have heared AND spoken sign-language with you".... "Is it too late to get CI now?"

Arent there many adults who got CIs at a later age that have benefitted from them? This is what makes it confusing...if it is too late then why are there many CI users here on this board so happy about it and saying that they can hear better with it than their HAs? My aide got her CI 5 years ago and she said she can hear with it like a powerful HA. Of course I dont know wht she means by that since I dont have a CI but I can only assume that she is hearing better with it despite getting implanted at the age of 30?

Liebling:-))) · 09-16-2007, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Cloggy´s post
Until the child enters the real world and sees for itself that a child that grew up hearing with CI has no problems hearing and speaking with anyone.

We deaf have no problem to accept what kind of world we have and also accept hearing people are as well and learn to understand where they come from but I can see that the hearing people have the problem to accept deaf people that´s because they have no patience to learn sign, write with paper & pen or speak slowly etc for them. We (deaf) have no problem but hearing people? Why can´t they try to understand where we deaf come from and learn our world instead of think negative about them?

Do we have to do anything to learn for hearing world because they are real world?

Quote:

"Mum... Dad.... ... why did you decide that I had to grow up deaf?" .... "I could have heared AND spoken sign-language with you".... "Is it too late to get CI now?"

Like what I said before - it will be okay if the parents positive their children about their deafness then they will grow up happily with no complication and feel positive themselves... It´s bad if they negative their children about their deafness then they will grow up to hate themselves and feel unhappy about their deafness.

Liebling:-))) · 09-16-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Arent there many adults who got CIs at a later age that have benefitted from them? This is what makes it confusing...if it is too late then why are there many CI users here on this board so happy about it and saying that they can hear better with it than their HAs? My aide got her CI 5 years ago and she said she can hear with it like a powerful HA. Of course I dont know wht she means by that since I dont have a CI but I can only assume that she is hearing better with it despite getting implanted at the age of 30?

Yes the people are happy with their decision what they really want CI or HA...

I collect CI and HA users experiences - they said the same thing - they can phone and can speak well like HOH/hearing. To my view, I beleive that it has nothing do with CI or HA but the people themselves who are willing to learn anything and want to hear and speak development. It´s about their own WILLING.

I decide that CI is not for me because I know myself that I would not go to speech therapy and learn to hear anything because I am not interesting... Why should I want to have CI then? I am happy with HA (I quitted to wear HA at over 20 years ago because I cannot acheive to pay batteries for HA anymore since healthycare support CI 100%).

Cloggy · 09-16-2007, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Arent there many adults who got CIs at a later age that have benefitted from them? This is what makes it confusing...if it is too late then why are there many CI users here on this board so happy about it and saying that they can hear better with it than their HAs? My aide got her CI 5 years ago and she said she can hear with it like a powerful HA. Of course I dont know wht she means by that since I dont have a CI but I can only assume that she is hearing better with it despite getting implanted at the age of 30?

I have yet to see a preligually, profoundly deaf person that got CI at later age and managed to be 100% satisfied.
The successes are mostly deaf people that benefitted from their HA's and chose CI when their residual hearing went down so far that they had no use for their HA. (Or post-ligually deafened people..)

A deaf child that grows up hearing will reach a different level than a child that grew up with ASL and starts hearing at 18.
Or... do you really think it makes no difference.?
That's why I wonder about the age of the children when "CI fails".
Because I'm sure many of the "failures" are teenagers that want to try "hearing" and find out "it's too difficult" or "too much noise" or even "they are shunned by their friends, so they stop wearing CI".......

How many of the "failures" you see were children implanted before the age of 2..? How many before the age of 3.... do some statistics in your classroom...

And about your aide who "... got her CI 5 years ago and she said she can hear with it like a powerful HA."....
Imaging.... a HA doesn't help any more, and a CI suddenly sounds like a powerful HA...
Read the sentence again.... and realise that where a HA stops being effective, a CI starts... and "sounds" like a powerful HA.
(BTW.... why would you need an aide ?)

Cloggy · 09-16-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

We deaf have no problem to accept what kind of world we have and also accept hearing people are as well and learn to understand where they come from but I can see that the hearing people have the problem to accept deaf people that´s because they have no patience to learn sign, write with paper & pen or speak slowly etc for them. We (deaf) have no problem but hearing people? Why can´t they try to understand where we deaf come from and learn our world instead of think negative about them?

Do we have to do anything to learn for hearing world because they are real world?

With "real world" I mean a world not regulated by parents. I did not mean "hearing world" since obviously the child will allway be in that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Like what I said before - it will be okay if the parents positive their children about their deafness then they will grow up happily with no complication and feel positive themselves... It´s bad if they negative their children about their deafness then they will grow up to hate themselves and feel unhappy about their deafness.

This is not about accepting deafness. This is about the possibility to hear.
One can accept deafness and still want to be able to hear.
It might be a fear of being excluded from Deaf community that is regulating this, because they seem to imprint that "wanting to hear is the same as not accepting deafness."

Cloggy · 09-16-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

.......... I am happy with HA (I quitted to wear HA at over 20 years ago because I cannot acheive to pay batteries for HA anymore since healthycare support CI 100%).

So it's the fault of CI that you don't buy batteries?
I don't believe that! You chose not to use HA for some other reason. Batteries might be expensive, but not so expensive that when you buy them it means that you cannot drive a car, cannot go on a holiday, cannot buy a plane-ticket, cannot buy a computer.

It might be unfair for health services not to cover your batteries, but I do not believe that that is the reason you stopped using HA's ..... and you did that 20 years ago!

shel90 · 09-16-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

I have yet to see a preligually, profoundly deaf person that got CI at later age and managed to be 100% satisfied.
The successes are mostly deaf people that benefitted from their HA's and chose CI when their residual hearing went down so far that they had no use for their HA. (Or post-ligually deafened people..)

A deaf child that grows up hearing will reach a different level than a child that grew up with ASL and starts hearing at 18.
Or... do you really think it makes no difference.?
That's why I wonder about the age of the children when "CI fails".
Because I'm sure many of the "failures" are teenagers that want to try "hearing" and find out "it's too difficult" or "too much noise" or even "they are shunned by their friends, so they stop wearing CI".......

How many of the "failures" you see were children implanted before the age of 2..? How many before the age of 3.... do some statistics in your classroom...

And about your aide who "... got her CI 5 years ago and she said she can hear with it like a powerful HA."....
Imaging.... a HA doesn't help any more, and a CI suddenly sounds like a powerful HA...
Read the sentence again.... and realise that where a HA stops being effective, a CI starts... and "sounds" like a powerful HA.
(BTW.... why would you need an aide ?)

From what I was told by the audi, those children got implanted as toddlers. I have never worked with teenagers..always worked with kids that are between 4 to 9 years old. To why they were unable to benefit from their CI is a mystery to me cuz nobody would give me an answer. Not my fault if I get "I dont know's" from their parents and audis.

At my work, we have teacher's aides..that is how it is set up at my work.

She said "My CI now sounds like a powerful HA." I guess I can ask her on Monday what exactly does she mean by that.

Liebling:-))) · 09-16-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

So it's the fault of CI that you don't buy batteries?
I don't believe that! You chose not to use HA for some other reason. Batteries might be expensive, but not so expensive that when you buy them it means that you cannot drive a car, cannot go on a holiday, cannot buy a plane-ticket, cannot buy a computer.

It might be unfair for health services not to cover your batteries, but I do not believe that that is the reason you stopped using HA's ..... and you did that 20 years ago!

You interpreted my post in the wrong way.

I has nothing to against CI but health system. We expect that they should treat CI and HA users equally. They should respect our decision for pick CI or HA instead of consider only CI.

Ha, you has no clue how much I have to acheive to pay batteries for my HA because you don´t need to pay battery. Can you please count how much batteries cost for a year? I rather to spend money on family pleasure, our future, trips, foods, drink etc over batteries because they are important to me.

Public health insurance system think that we would give our HA up to consider CI because they are 100% gratis. The people who want to have CI then they will get it as soon as they can and then send them to luxury spa resort up for 5 to 7 weeks treatment including speech/hear therapies, etc every 2 years... Do you think I would jump for that gratis? No I rather to follow my heart what I really want... I am me... I spend a lot of money on batteries and save the recipes for tax refund but I didn´t get tax refund very much for that batteries... what a waste... I can get tax refund when I use gasoline for travel to work and acompany my children to doctor, etc. % of tax refund on gasoline for car is better profit than batteries. My hubby & I fought with Public Health Insurance with the help from lawyer but it doesn´t work so we decide for important things over batteries. We do not regret our decision and happy what we are.

vallee · 09-16-2007, 10:37 AM

All I can say is WOW!

As an educator, special educator, HOH/Deaf child(losing hearing at age 3), HOH/deaf adult, CI user, and overall parent, I learned a lot from this debate. I only found this site about a month ago, so I did not even not these types of debates were around.

All I can say is from personal experience and that is thank you mom for taking the time to teach me language skills and encouraging me to make MY choice. I choose to communicate orally. She supported me completely. I see it both ways in my school. We have a preschool who the parents want ASL only because they don't want to encourage oral language development. I have a 5th grader who is HOH and the parents don't believe that she needs to even say she is HOH. What little sign she does with me is what we do for "fun."

So keep up this debate, but remember MOST parents want to do what is best for their children. I have seen horrible abuse, really horrible things and I would not put my CI surgery in that category. I would not put my wearing HOH in the same place either.

jillio · 09-16-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Amazing....
A deaf person, that used HA's and now CI is sharing experiences, explaining differences, and you have the nerve to say "You knowledge is quite obviously minimal at best. Your understanding of the issues is minimal."

Jillio, you might be studying for your masters degree, but your ignorence is amazing, as is your capability for insulting people when you cannot give them a direct answer..

1. You need to get your information straight. cloggy. Your search techniques are lacking.

2. To whom are you referring when speak of someone who used HA and now uses CI?

3. Implantation does not automatically confer expertise in the psycho-social, educational, and liguistic implications of implantation in deaf children.

jillio · 09-16-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Today
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09-16-2007, 10:37 AM	#198 (permalink)
vallee Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tennessee Posts: 968	All I can say is WOW! As an educator, special educator, HOH/Deaf child(losing hearing at age 3), HOH/deaf adult, CI user, and overall parent, I learned a lot from this debate. I only found this site about a month ago, so I did not even not these types of debates were around. All I can say is from personal experience and that is thank you mom for taking the time to teach me language skills and encouraging me to make MY choice. I choose to communicate orally. She supported me completely. I see it both ways in my school. We have a preschool who the parents want ASL only because they don't want to encourage oral language development. I have a 5th grader who is HOH and the parents don't believe that she needs to even say she is HOH. What little sign she does with me is what we do for "fun." So keep up this debate, but remember MOST parents want to do what is best for their children. I have seen horrible abuse, really horrible things and I would not put my CI surgery in that category. I would not put my wearing HOH in the same place either.