"Letting the Child Decide" - Page 4

Cole's mom · 05-15-2007, 12:08 AM

Thanks for asking the parents opinion. I couldn't believe how out of touch the mom seemed in your story, seems incomprehensible to me to let a kid grow up without language, hopefully he was late identified and she was just getting used to the idea. As for your responsibility to help the boy, I would drop by with the information, and see if she has any questions, but then you're right, it isn't your responsibility anymore. However, maybe she is still intimidated so if there is someone who is hearing at your school, they could meet her and offer more info?? That is a tough dilema!!! In the end, hopefully you don't see him at your school in a few years significantly delayed and in need of a lot of extra work, when it really isn't that hard to start when they are young.

jillio · 05-15-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog

R2D2 Exactly.

Yes and why did you ask that?

Because you stated in a previous post that you were in the hearing community more than the deaf, and had difficulties in communication with them.

jillio · 05-15-2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2

I think my point was that having a CI doesn't preclude pursuing a billingual approach, such as Coles mum appears to be following with some success. I don't deny that overall, that many professionals have an oral approach. The problem that many parents face is getting a broad range of information.

However, the difference is that you appear to argue that this is one of the reasons why deaf children should not be implanted at all. Whereas I would personally encourage parents to be educated about all the different viewpoints and experiences when they are in the process of considering implanting their child and to learn to sign as well.

It's not an either/or situation.

I have never stated that deaf children should not be implanted at all. I have stated that it was my decision not to implant my son, as I personally believe that he is the one that must live as a deaf individual, and therefore, it is his basic human right to decide how he chooses to do that. Should I have another deaf child, or a deaf grandchild, my decision would be the same.

I have, however stated, that my opposition to implantation in children is not the devise per say, but the attitude that once a child is implanted, they are no longer deaf, and as a consequence their need to be exposed to visual language and the community of others like them is ignored. That does tremendous harm to the development--both educational and emotional--of deaf children. I have personally witnessed the result of it on a daily bais for the past 20 years, and continue to do so. My opposition is to the oralist philosophy, both on moral and scientific grounds.

Yes, I do have moral objections to implantation of children, and I have what I believe are extremely valid reasons for those objections. However, just as I object to the hearing community attempting to force their views and their way of life on the deaf community, I do not attempt to tell other parents that they have no right to make the decisions they do for their children. I simply try to communicate the fact that, when they do implant, please keep in mind that their children are still deaf, and they still have specific needs related to deafness that must be addressed. My moral objections simply mean that I would not choose to implant a child of my own. I object, however, to ethnocentricism in any form.

When I advocate for the educational needs for deaf children, and for that which is necessary for their emotional and social development, it is not a CI issue. It is out of concern for the difficulties that I have witnessed in these children, and the problems associated with addressing them from a remedial standpoint. It is not an attempt to dictate parenting practices, it is an attempt to prevent the unneccessary suffering of another deaf child simply because a parent has not been informed of ALL the issues.

And I agree--Cole'smom is doing a wonderful job in fact finding prior to making her decisions. However, the very fact that she has admitted to being pushed in the direction of the oralists camp confirms my claims that the hearing community is still very much grounded in the oralist's camp, and hearing parents of deaf children are not being provided with all of the information they need to make informed and reasonable decisions. Furthermore, the fact that she has come to this board insearch of information tells me that the information she knows is necessary is not readily available. I commend her for her diligence.

Once again, it would appear that I have been judged far too quickly and on surface issues.

ashleysmommy · 05-15-2007, 11:59 AM

WOW. I am glad I had better resources. This mom is probably in denial. She may not want to accept the fact her child may be deaf or maybe just hoh. I almost went that way. I am so glad I snapped out of it. You can never have too much info on hearing loss for children. If I didn't feel the docs were moving fast enough I went over their heads and set up my own appointments with the specialists. I knew there was help out there I just had to take advantage of it. I hope this mom comes around. Maybe the info will help her understand her child better. I know I would have appreciated it.

jillio · 05-15-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashleysmommy

WOW. I am glad I had better resources. This mom is probably in denial. She may not want to accept the fact her child may be deaf or maybe just hoh. I almost went that way. I am so glad I snapped out of it. You can never have too much info on hearing loss for children. If I didn't feel the docs were moving fast enough I went over their heads and set up my own appointments with the specialists. I knew there was help out there I just had to take advantage of it. I hope this mom comes around. Maybe the info will help her understand her child better. I know I would have appreciated it.

Keep digging for that information, and go over anyone's head who stands in the way of getting the proper services for your child.

Silentwolfdog · 05-15-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because you stated in a previous post that you were in the hearing community more than the deaf, and had difficulties in communication with them.

Now yes, I quit deaf community in my area to join in hearing community a couple years ago. Yes it's hard but I never regret the decision I made (loved the last two years of high school at public school than 6 years at school for the deaf). Well, not all deaf community is wonderful, that's what some people failed to see. And ironic is that because of where my field placement will put me in, I ended up have to go back to that community for my course (Hopefully it's improved all those years I am not there). I wanted to give some deaf people a better chance than what I got from education, services, etc. I would want to encourage them to go to college, not working in wal-mart or whatever and that's my goal. I mean where I come from, everything seems pretty hopeless for deaf people and because I am deaf myself, it hurts me. I know deaf people are more capable than what I have seen, only if they had someone being there for them, give them advices or guide them in the right direction. Only reason I made it to college is because my family wanted me to, I don't even remember school for the deaf did anything to help with that. They basically dumped me to fend for myself. (There's more reasons, but I will stop there because it's too long to explain.)

Only problem I have in hearing community is that I can't hear nor speak. I can write and read, sure...but come on that's not how the world work, sad but true. But I just wish that I was given a chance to learn how to speak or read lips or whatever. I wasn't given a chance.

**shel90** · 05-15-2007, 05:15 PM

I found this website...very interesting

Welcome to the Cochlear War homepage

R2D2 · 05-15-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashleysmommy

WOW. I am glad I had better resources. This mom is probably in denial. She may not want to accept the fact her child may be deaf or maybe just hoh. I almost went that way. I am so glad I snapped out of it. You can never have too much info on hearing loss for children. If I didn't feel the docs were moving fast enough I went over their heads and set up my own appointments with the specialists. I knew there was help out there I just had to take advantage of it. I hope this mom comes around. Maybe the info will help her understand her child better. I know I would have appreciated it.

Yes and that is exactly why people need to move on from being bogged down with debating the ethics of actually implanting a child and recognise the reality - it's going to happen. This involves providing a more positive and constructive approach that encourages parents to recognise the social challenges that deaf children face in mainstream environments, that they need similar peers and that their child is still deaf. This involves developing a strong communication relationship with the child also - because every child is different and has different preferences.

I think that if we had more of that culture on this board there would be less negativity and more learning and mutual respect of one another's personal beliefs.

**deafskeptic** · 05-15-2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

I have never stated that deaf children should not be implanted at all. I have stated that it was my decision not to implant my son, as I personally believe that he is the one that must live as a deaf individual, and therefore, it is his basic human right to decide how he chooses to do that. Should I have another deaf child, or a deaf grandchild, my decision would be the same.

I have, however stated, that my opposition to implantation in children is not the devise per say, but the attitude that once a child is implanted, they are no longer deaf, and as a consequence their need to be exposed to visual language and the community of others like them is ignored. That does tremendous harm to the development--both educational and emotional--of deaf children. I have personally witnessed the result of it on a daily bais for the past 20 years, and continue to do so. My opposition is to the oralist philosophy, both on moral and scientific grounds.

Yes, I do have moral objections to implantation of children, and I have what I believe are extremely valid reasons for those objections. However, just as I object to the hearing community attempting to force their views and their way of life on the deaf community, I do not attempt to tell other parents that they have no right to make the decisions they do for their children. I simply try to communicate the fact that, when they do implant, please keep in mind that their children are still deaf, and they still have specific needs related to deafness that must be addressed. My moral objections simply mean that I would not choose to implant a child of my own. I object, however, to ethnocentricism in any form.

When I advocate for the educational needs for deaf children, and for that which is necessary for their emotional and social development, it is not a CI issue. It is out of concern for the difficulties that I have witnessed in these children, and the problems associated with addressing them from a remedial standpoint. It is not an attempt to dictate parenting practices, it is an attempt to prevent the unneccessary suffering of another deaf child simply because a parent has not been informed of ALL the issues.

And I agree--Cole'smom is doing a wonderful job in fact finding prior to making her decisions. However, the very fact that she has admitted to being pushed in the direction of the oralists camp confirms my claims that the hearing community is still very much grounded in the oralist's camp, and hearing parents of deaf children are not being provided with all of the information they need to make informed and reasonable decisions. Furthermore, the fact that she has come to this board insearch of information tells me that the information she knows is necessary is not readily available. I commend her for her diligence.

Once again, it would appear that I have been judged far too quickly and on surface issues.

Ah, I had been wondering where you stand. I agree with you on what you say about Cole'smom. Too many hearing parents seem more concerned about the child's speech when they should be concerned about their language skills. I remember one guy from my oral class who had excellent speech skills and he could hear on the phone. It was a shock reading one of his notes as it was clear his language skills weren't good. You'd think that*I* of all people would know better than to make an assumution about good speech being equal to good language skills.

I agree that CIs do not make you hearing. You're still deaf even if you sound hearing.

If I were to marry a Deaf man and we had a deaf child, I'd have it implanted only if the Dad agrees to it. It's a joint decision. BTW, I'm not so concerned about CI children of Deaf families as they're more likey to know what the child will face and that they will have normal language development. They'll not make the mistake of assuming that CIs make them hearing.

With the Hearing, it depends on their attiudes toward sign and the d/Deaf in general. Many tend to take those they deem experts a bit too uncritically - sometimes with unfortunate results.

I'd be careful about marrying a hearing man because it'll depend on his attiude toward my deafness; I hate the controlling type who think they know more than the Deaf do and discount 'em as a rule.

I think you did an excellent job of raising your son.

jillio · 05-15-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog

Now yes, I quit deaf community in my area to join in hearing community a couple years ago. Yes it's hard but I never regret the decision I made (loved the last two years of high school at public school than 6 years at school for the deaf). Well, not all deaf community is wonderful, that's what some people failed to see. And ironic is that because of where my field placement will put me in, I ended up have to go back to that community for my course (Hopefully it's improved all those years I am not there). I wanted to give some deaf people a better chance than what I got from education, services, etc. I would want to encourage them to go to college, not working in wal-mart or whatever and that's my goal. I mean where I come from, everything seems pretty hopeless for deaf people and because I am deaf myself, it hurts me. I know deaf people are more capable than what I have seen, only if they had someone being there for them, give them advices or guide them in the right direction. Only reason I made it to college is because my family wanted me to, I don't even remember school for the deaf did anything to help with that. They basically dumped me to fend for myself. (There's more reasons, but I will stop there because it's too long to explain.)

Only problem I have in hearing community is that I can't hear nor speak. I can write and read, sure...but come on that's not how the world work, sad but true. But I just wish that I was given a chance to learn how to speak or read lips or whatever. I wasn't given a chance.

I'm sorry that you weren't given some of the opportunities to develop oral skills that would be useful to you, but I do admire the fact that yu haven't let that stop you from setting goals for yourself and doing whatever you have to to reach those goals. And you are truly a special person for wanting to do your part to help others.

jillio · 05-15-2007, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Ah, I had been wondering where you stand. I agree with you on what you say about Cole'smom. Too many hearing parents seem more concerned about the child's speech when they should be concerned about their language skills. I remember one guy from my oral class who had excellent speech skills and he could hear on the phone. It was a shock reading one of his notes as it was clear his language skills weren't good. You'd think that*I* of all people would know better than to make an assumution about good speech being equal to good language skills.

I agree that CIs do not make you hearing. You're still deaf even if you sound hearing.

If I were to marry a Deaf man and we had a deaf child, I'd have it implanted only if the Dad agrees to it. It's a joint decision. BTW, I'm not so concerned about CI children of Deaf families as they're more likey to know what the child will face and that they will have normal language development. They'll not make the mistake of assuming that CIs make them hearing.

With the Hearing, it depends on their attiudes toward sign and the d/Deaf in general. Many tend to take those they deem experts a bit too uncritically - sometimes with unfortunate results.

I'd be careful about marrying a hearing man because it'll depend on his attiude toward my deafness; I hate the controlling type who think they know more than the Deaf do and discount 'em as a rule.

I think you did an excellent job of raising your son.

deafskeptic! I tried my best.

R2D2 · 05-15-2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I have never stated that deaf children should not be implanted at all. I have stated that it was my decision not to implant my son, as I personally believe that he is the one that must live as a deaf individual, and therefore, it is his basic human right to decide how he chooses to do that. Should I have another deaf child, or a deaf grandchild, my decision would be the same.

I have, however stated, that my opposition to implantation in children is not the devise per say, but the attitude that once a child is implanted, they are no longer deaf, and as a consequence their need to be exposed to visual language and the community of others like them is ignored. That does tremendous harm to the development--both educational and emotional--of deaf children. I have personally witnessed the result of it on a daily bais for the past 20 years, and continue to do so. My opposition is to the oralist philosophy, both on moral and scientific grounds.

Yes, I do have moral objections to implantation of children, and I have what I believe are extremely valid reasons for those objections. However, just as I object to the hearing community attempting to force their views and their way of life on the deaf community, I do not attempt to tell other parents that they have no right to make the decisions they do for their children. I simply try to communicate the fact that, when they do implant, please keep in mind that their children are still deaf, and they still have specific needs related to deafness that must be addressed. My moral objections simply mean that I would not choose to implant a child of my own. I object, however, to ethnocentricism in any form.

When I advocate for the educational needs for deaf children, and for that which is necessary for their emotional and social development, it is not a CI issue. It is out of concern for the difficulties that I have witnessed in these children, and the problems associated with addressing them from a remedial standpoint. It is not an attempt to dictate parenting practices, it is an attempt to prevent the unneccessary suffering of another deaf child simply because a parent has not been informed of ALL the issues.

And I agree--Cole'smom is doing a wonderful job in fact finding prior to making her decisions. However, the very fact that she has admitted to being pushed in the direction of the oralists camp confirms my claims that the hearing community is still very much grounded in the oralist's camp, and hearing parents of deaf children are not being provided with all of the information they need to make informed and reasonable decisions. Furthermore, the fact that she has come to this board insearch of information tells me that the information she knows is necessary is not readily available. I commend her for her diligence.

Once again, it would appear that I have been judged far too quickly and on surface issues.

I must admit I'm confused after reading your post. I think it's a reasonable post and yet I'm sure I've seen previous posts where you stated you had problems with CIs in children because (unlike hearing aids) it was a medical prodecure and as such it was a choice that should only be made in adulthood by the child itself. You've also said a few times that CIs are an attempt to "fix" a deaf child. But you are saying it's more the oralist philosophy that is identified with it that is a big problem for you? If the oralism was not so overt then there would be no problem?

I think the problem with this sub forum is that it's the nearest thing people can find that represents oralism and some people are dumping all their past baggage and anger about oralism, even though I've seen very few posts by people here who advocate it only by itself. I'm not belittling the pain, I've had some of the same experiences myself, however if the balance is overly negative vs useful constructive information and advice then people get turned off.

I don't know if it's just me but I do feel that people are becoming more relaxed about bilingualism now (due to greater awareness and appreciation of cultures other than their own) and parents are more aware of and more interested in sign. I do agree that lack of information for parents is a problem but that is something that can be addressed.

deafdyke · 05-15-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

remember one guy from my oral class who had excellent speech skills and he could hear on the phone. It was a shock reading one of his notes as it was clear his language skills weren't good.

Indeed....the abilty to go "boo be bah" isn't equal to the abilty to really have the meat and potatos of a language.

Quote:

I wanted to give some deaf people a better chance than what I got from education, services, etc. I would want to encourage them to go to college, not working in wal-mart or whatever and that's my goal. I mean where I come from, everything seems pretty hopeless for deaf people and because I am deaf myself, it hurts me. I know deaf people are more capable than what I have seen, only if they had someone being there for them, give them advices or guide them in the right direction. Only reason I made it to college is because my family wanted me to, I don't even remember school for the deaf did anything to help with that. They basically dumped me to fend for myself. (There's more reasons, but I will stop there because it's too long to explain.)

Only problem I have in hearing community is that I can't hear nor speak. I can write and read, sure...but come on that's not how the world work, sad but true. But I just wish that I was given a chance to learn how to speak or read lips or whatever. I wasn't given a chance.

I've noticed that one major reason why a lot of deaf people abandon the Deaf community, is that they complain that academic standards aren't exactly the best in the world. However, acceptance of low academic standards is NOT exclusive to the Deaf world.......Hey, I have a friend who went to Perkins (blind school) and he said that the acadmics were really crappy and they discouraged you from going off to college. A lot of blind schools are like that.......they tend to have more MR and multihandicapped kids rather then just blind academic kids. I can understand how a Deaf school might push you away from college..........but being mainstreamed, unless you're a superstar you very often get the same thing!
I definitly think schools for the Deaf should really promote speech and hearing.....just as an additional tool. As a matter of fact, most kids are given speech........ASL onliers are a very small percentage of Deaf people!

**shel90** · 05-16-2007, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Indeed....the abilty to go "boo be bah" isn't equal to the abilty to really have the meat and potatos of a language.

I've noticed that one major reason why a lot of deaf people abandon the Deaf community, is that they complain that academic standards aren't exactly the best in the world. However, acceptance of low academic standards is NOT exclusive to the Deaf world.......Hey, I have a friend who went to Perkins (blind school) and he said that the acadmics were really crappy and they discouraged you from going off to college. A lot of blind schools are like that.......they tend to have more MR and multihandicapped kids rather then just blind academic kids. I can understand how a Deaf school might push you away from college..........but being mainstreamed, unless you're a superstar you very often get the same thing!
I definitly think schools for the Deaf should really promote speech and hearing.....just as an additional tool. As a matter of fact, most kids are given speech........ASL onliers are a very small percentage of Deaf people!

That's why I am so

by all these people's comments about how bad deaf schools are like it is us teachers who dont want the kids to do well or we lower our standards. From what I see at my job, that is not the case. It is the kids that come into elementary school or the kids being referred from the mainstreamed schools who are so language delayed that is what makes it seem like the deaf schools are bad. That's why I push for exposure to signing immediately instead of waiting to see if the child picks up on oral language or not. I think that view is just ridiculous and because of that, deaf schools end up looking bad.

BTW..our deaf school has 4 speech therapist and a CI program that uses spoken language so why are people complaining about deaf schools discouraging the idea of spoken language too unless there are other deaf programs that discourage it? That I cant imagine..

jillio · 05-16-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2

I must admit I'm confused after reading your post. I think it's a reasonable post and yet I'm sure I've seen previous posts where you stated you had problems with CIs in children because (unlike hearing aids) it was a medical prodecure and as such it was a choice that should only be made in adulthood by the child itself. You've also said a few times that CIs are an attempt to "fix" a deaf child. But you are saying it's more the oralist philosophy that is identified with it that is a big problem for you? If the oralism was not so overt then there would be no problem?

I think the problem with this sub forum is that it's the nearest thing people can find that represents oralism and some people are dumping all their past baggage and anger about oralism, even though I've seen very few posts by people here who advocate it only by itself. I'm not belittling the pain, I've had some of the same experiences myself, however if the balance is overly negative vs useful constructive information and advice then people get turned off.

I don't know if it's just me but I do feel that people are becoming more relaxed about bilingualism now (due to greater awareness and appreciation of cultures other than their own) and parents are more aware of and more interested in sign. I do agree that lack of information for parents is a problem but that is something that can be addressed.

Yes, I have stated that, and I do have objections (and thus made my decision based partly on that) that no medical procedure that requires general anesthesia and is not to correct a specific health problem should be undertaken in an infant, as infant are physically unable to tolerate these procedures in many ways that adults can due to immature physiological processes. This is one of the many things I speak of when I say that I disagree with implanting children on several levels, to include those of moral grounds. However, I have never once stated that those parents who do choose to implant are wrong in the decision to implant, but wil forever and a day state that the oralist attitude that follows many parents and children after implantation is wrong because I have seen first hand the direct impact--always in my experience negative--that it has on the child. My moral objections to CI do lead me also to believe that it is a choice for the child to make. That is my stand, the stand that I took with my own son, and the stand that I would take should I have another deaf child. However, I have not stated that any parent who has chosen differently has made the "wrong" choice. I have simply attempted to share the experience I have had not only with my son, but with numerous other deaf individuals in order to keep them grounded so that they do not fall into the the trap of believing that the CI is a cureall. I have seen the results of parents who do fall intothat trap, and the results are negative for the children indeed.

Do I sometimes get angry? Yes I do. I get angry because when a parent posts a belief that their child no longer needs the language of signs, and their child is and will always be a part of hearing culture, I see all the kids I've had contact with who have received a second rate education not because they are not extremely bright and capable, but because their basic and fundamental needs have not been addressed in the name of making them less deaf. I get angry for the unhappy teenagers who have no social life because they cannot be comfortable with either deaf or hearing peers. I see the deaf adults that are underemployed and suffer depression and addiction because they have been held back not because of anything inherent within deafness but because of hearing societies prejudiced attitudes toward deafness and sign language.

Yes, things are slowly changing. But there are still pockets of individuals out there who persist in these destructive attitudes, and while these attitudes do no harmn to the holder, they most certainly cause unjust harm to an entire community of people. My son is deaf. If I see this destructive behavior in the hearing community, and I do nothing to silence it, or to change it, then I have not fulfilled my obligation to my son, as that community is part of who he is.

jillio · 05-16-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

That's why I am so

by all these people's comments about how bad deaf schools are like it is us teachers who dont want the kids to do well or we lower our standards. From what I see at my job, that is not the case. It is the kids that come into elementary school or the kids being referred from the mainstreamed schools who are so language delayed that is what makes it seem like the deaf schools are bad. That's why I push for exposure to signing immediately instead of waiting to see if the child picks up on oral language or not. I think that view is just ridiculous and because of that, deaf schools end up looking bad.

BTW..our deaf school has 4 speech therapist and a CI program that uses spoken language so why are people complaining about deaf schools discouraging the idea of spoken language too unless there are other deaf programs that discourage it? That I cant imagine..

Its because they are listening to others who have mistaken information. My son's deaf schol as well, had a CI program, was of the TC philosophy, and even included a TC preschool that admitted hearing and deaf toddlers. The people that berate deaf schools are the same ones that are afraid that their child will suffer some sort of a stignma for being deaf.

**Kalista** · 05-16-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

First of all, Cochlear Implant is a Surgerical Option.

Cochlear Implant is part of the body, and the body is the child's body. It's his/her decision. If he/she say no, then don't. If he/she said yes, then do it.

Let me tell you story about me getting a CI.

When I was 4 years old, my parents was thinking about giving me a cochlear implant. After they talked with the doctor, they thought "Maybe we are too pressure on our child to have surgery". They feel like they should wait till I raise and make my decision.

When my parents feel that way, today I felt so very thankful to my parents for respecting my body, and who I am. I didn't twist any word in that story, my parents told me the exactly same story.

But... I choose to have a CI surgery because of curiousity. It didn't work for me at all, some people argued that I was too old for CI, that was the reason why the CI was not very benefit for me. Maybe they are right.

Maybe all of deaf children and deaf animals should get cochlear implant, and the Deaf Culture will never be here. What would you think about that?

Also, I have some friends who raised with the CI. One of my friend I am going to share.

When she was 2 years old, she got a CI. Today, she HATE her parents. Why? Her parents refuse to communicate with her through the sign (even her parents knew sign) and will treat her shit if she didn't wear the CI, also discriminate against her deaf signer friends. Somehow, she told me that she probably don't want to see her parents again because her parents kept disrespecting her as being deaf.

I didn't mean to be against you for your child to have the CI, if you think that is the best thing for your child to have CI so she can have opporiunity to have good career and good social life and good for many things. I am just saying to not forget to respect his/her deafness, and don't make his/her feel like he/she was the lower because of her deafness, and don't stop him/her from social with other deaf signers because she is learning from her true being.

Also when he/she raise to his/her teenage, he/she ask you "Why did you put me on the operation for CI?"

My advice, don't simple say "I want you to hear", it could make him/her to think that you don't like him/her as being deaf, he/she might feel overreacted.

It's better to say "I gave you the operation for CI because I want you to have varies of good opporiunity for the life". Your child might feel that you want to support him/her in any way, and it also make him/her to feel that you are giving them the freedom.

If you want your child to have CI, just don't forget to not disrespect his/her deafness.

EXCELLENT Point !!!

I am very disappointed in many parents. They never understand our point. They make their own decision to open up on little cute healthy head to implant metal inside the head !! They do not accept for who they are. They do not want their Deaf children into the Deaf Culture and World !!

I am so sick of those debates for years and years !! They never got my point!

I am glad that your friend hate her parents because they do not accept for who she is. Won't learn sign language to communication with her. I do not blame her.

I wish, my parents sent me to America School for the Deaf in West Hartford, CT because of Deaf teachers !! More exposure in sign language than oral.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at many doctors,

they are brainwash to many parents; they never look at us. We are successful in our education and career. Not necessary to get the cochlear implants and learn how to speak.

I was ****ing wasted my time to learn how to speak for many hours than going to the classrooms. Now, my speak sounds like a monkey's voice. My speech still horrible. I wish, they would never send me to the speech therpaist!!

I do cherish many Deaf beautiful and healthy babies, they did not ask for the cochlear implants !! They are created by God to this earth. Why can't many parents accept for their Deaf children? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!

deafdyke · 05-17-2007, 10:19 PM

AMEN jillo! A lot of those who bash Deaf schools are the ones who really can't see the forests for the trees

Quote:

It is the kids that come into elementary school or the kids being referred from the mainstreamed schools who are so language delayed that is what makes it seem like the deaf schools are bad. That's why I push for exposure to signing immediately instead of waiting to see if the child picks up on oral language or not

Yeah.....why not have Early Intervention be CHILD centered?
Oh, and shel...........that problem is not new. Even back in the late 70's, Leo Jacobs was saying that the mainstreamed to deaf school students, were now the ones who were very behind. Back in the old days, it used to be that the mainstreamed kids would be the superstars.

beetarehoh · 05-19-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew's Dad

I don't understand the characterization of "letting the child decide" (whether to get an implant). I see this many places as the sole argument against giving infants or young children a cochlear implant, with the only reason given being that it is simply bad because parents shouldn't be making important decisions for children. I don't think this makes sense.

First, as children, they don't make decisions for themselves. Their parents, whether they are good parents or bad parents, make the decisions for the child because they are unable to.

The child does not decide when its diaper is changed, when to watch TV, when or where to go to school, what he or she eats, what clothes to wear, or what hobbies to have. All of it goes through the parent for approval. The child may think he or she is choosing at times, but the parent is really making the decision. If the parent agrees with what the child of any age suggests ("I want ice cream for dinner!" "I want to wear shorts to school to play in the snow!" "I want to go to private school"), then the parent can make the decision to allow that. If they don't agree, the parent makes the decision to not allow that suggestion.

Either way, the parent is making the decision, not the child.

I hear over and over again that it's not right for the parent to decide on the CI issue. The truth is that the decision to not implant the child is also making a decision for the child. That's what parents do. They try to make the best choices for their child, knowing that that child may grow up to hate the choice we made for them. ("I hated my hair." "I hated the school you sent me to" "I hated that you made me play a musical instrument") On the other hand, they may have hated it while growing up, but then appreciate it when older. We don't know what they'll think when they're older.

Why don't we just get real and admit that when we say "it is wrong for the parent to decide" what we really mean is "I don't know if the CI fits with my values or goals, I'm not sure it will enhance my child's life, and I am scared that if the CI doesn't won't work well that my child will resent me for putting me through all the therapy and not fully developing my ASL. I'm also scared that he or she will lose some of the feeling of deaf culture which I think is important. The "benefit" does not outweigh the risks to me, and that's why I'm making this choice for my child."

I think the reasons why some make the decision to implant their child are clear on this board, but it boils down to thinking "I think that there are advantages in this world to being able to hear, understand, and respond to the spoken word, I think it will enhance my child's life and opportunities, and I am scared that if I turn my back on this technology in the early developmental years that when my child grows up and understands that the opportunity to develop those skills are largely diminished, he or she will resent me. The benefits outweigh the risks of not implanting, and that's why I'm making this choice for my child.

Drew's Dad

You've made your point: You decide for your child to have CI. And you will have to deal whatever the future consequences that may come. And who knows WHEN your child becomes an adult he will understand why you decide it.

I want to warn you: I believe that this point any child and adults having CI implants can NEVER meet the fluent and smooth socializing with hearing world. In the hearing group setting a CI implanted child cannot compete within verbal language. Children with CI may become isolated from a hearing group setting. Although they do very well with one on one. Maybe you dont mind repeating to your child what everybody in the group setting is laughing about. That would be hard to keep up for your child. I may be wrong: anyone here at AD can verbally fluent and compete well in the hearing group setting?????? Please reply

Deaf people learned ASL fluently and quickly than learning verbal. They feel comfortable because its their native language and very clear to communicate.

Thats good that you want your child to hear "ch" or "sh" or the bird tweeting. Friends that I met had CI still couldnt even tell which one is "ch" or "sh" and could tell when the bird is tweeting LOUD. A hearing adult once said "Peanut Brittle" and a deaf adult with CI since young thought the hearing person said "Penis Brittle" So Dad, I sure hope your son can really pick up the "Peanut Brittle."

I am hard of hearing with average of 75 db. I dont need CI but I wear hearing aides. I believe they function just about the same as CI but only sends signals to the brain first instead of the ear first. I rather sign because ASL is a very clear communication. My kids are also hard of hearing: they will wear hearing aides and they will get the best of BOTH world: hearing and deaf. So good luck with your son.

beetarehoh

PS And if my child is profoundly deaf I will not decide to put CI on MY child. Read my other post about a 6 year old CI implant.

**shel90** · 05-20-2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetarehoh

Drew's Dad

You've made your point: You decide for your child to have CI. And you will have to deal whatever the future consequences that may come. And who knows WHEN your child becomes an adult he will understand why you decide it.

I want to warn you: I believe that this point any child and adults having CI implants can NEVER meet the fluent and smooth socializing with hearing world. In the hearing group setting a CI implanted child cannot compete within verbal language. Children with CI may become isolated from a hearing group setting. Although they do very well with one on one. Maybe you dont mind repeating to your child what everybody in the group setting is laughing about. That would be hard to keep up for your child. I may be wrong: anyone here at AD can verbally fluent and compete well in the hearing group setting?????? Please reply

Deaf people learned ASL fluently and quickly than learning verbal. They feel comfortable because its their native language and very clear to communicate.

Thats good that you want your child to hear "ch" or "sh" or the bird tweeting. Friends that I met had CI still couldnt even tell which one is "ch" or "sh" and could tell when the bird is tweeting LOUD. A hearing adult once said "Peanut Brittle" and a deaf adult with CI since young thought the hearing person said "Penis Brittle" So Dad, I sure hope your son can really pick up the "Peanut Brittle."

I am hard of hearing with average of 75 db. I dont need CI but I wear hearing aides. I believe they function just about the same as CI but only sends signals to the brain first instead of the ear first. I rather sign because ASL is a very clear communication. My kids are also hard of hearing: they will wear hearing aides and they will get the best of BOTH world: hearing and deaf. So good luck with your son.

beetarehoh

PS And if my child is profoundly deaf I will not decide to put CI on MY child. Read my other post about a 6 year old CI implant.

:gopost:

It is all about accepting the child"s deafness and making the best of it.

rick48 · 05-20-2007, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetarehoh

...I believe that this point any child and adults having CI implants can NEVER meet the fluent and smooth socializing with hearing world...

You are entitled to your belief, but you are 100% wrong. I have met many ci users who do daily what you believe they cannot. I am also raising one as well.

R2D2 · 05-20-2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

You are entitled to your belief, but you are 100% wrong. I have met many ci users who do daily what you believe they cannot. I am also raising one as well.

Can your daughter hear well in large crowds with considerable background noise? I do very well in quiet situations, small group discussions of 4-5 friends but more than that and introducing loud background noise, I struggle. I'm not often in those situations though and mind you, I got my CI as an adult after growing up with hearing aids.

R2D2 · 05-20-2007, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetarehoh

I am hard of hearing with average of 75 db. I dont need CI but I wear hearing aides. I believe they function just about the same as CI but only sends signals to the brain first instead of the ear first. I rather sign because ASL is a very clear communication.

For people with smaller losses like yours, you are correct. However, if you have a large loss then there is often a noticeable difference between hearing aids and CIs in terms of quality.

This is because the harder the hearing aid has to work, the greater distortion it causes. The CI doesn't work by amplifying residual hearing as a hearing aid does but rather sends a signal that is interpreted by the brain as sound and so for most people with large losses, the CI wins hands down.

Before I suddenly lost my residual hearing, I had a loss of 80-105db and grew up with hearing aids. Now with my CI, the improved clarity is really noticeable. I can hear sounds that I never heard before, especially high frequency sounds.

I respect your viewpoints and it's been fortunate that you and your children have been able to benefit from both hearing aids and ASL.

neecy · 05-20-2007, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetarehoh

I want to warn you: I believe that this point any child and adults having CI implants can NEVER meet the fluent and smooth socializing with hearing world.

I'm an adult with a CI and I have very little trouble with "fluent and smooth socializing in the hearing world" with my implant. I go to college without the help of an interpreter and am able to understand what my teachers say even if I'm busy looking down at what I'm writing. I can also understand questions asked by students who are sitting behind or in front of me.

**Liebling:-)))** · 05-20-2007, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neecy

I'm an adult with a CI and I have very little trouble with "fluent and smooth socializing in the hearing world" with my implant. I go to college without the help of an interpreter and am able to understand what my teachers say even if I'm busy looking down at what I'm writing. I can also understand questions asked by students who are sitting behind or in front of me.

But you experienced being hearing before you lost hearing to deaf when you were young. It´s not necassary for you to go speech therapy to train speech but just train to hear the sounds. Right?

Drew's Dad · 05-20-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetarehoh

I want to warn you: I believe that this point any child and adults having CI implants can NEVER meet the fluent and smooth socializing with hearing world. In the hearing group setting a CI implanted child cannot compete within verbal language. Children with CI may become isolated from a hearing group setting. Although they do very well with one on one. Maybe you dont mind repeating to your child what everybody in the group setting is laughing about. That would be hard to keep up for your child. I may be wrong: anyone here at AD can verbally fluent and compete well in the hearing group setting?????? Please reply

Thats good that you want your child to hear "ch" or "sh" or the bird tweeting. Friends that I met had CI still couldnt even tell which one is "ch" or "sh" and could tell when the bird is tweeting LOUD. A hearing adult once said "Peanut Brittle" and a deaf adult with CI since young thought the hearing person said "Penis Brittle" So Dad, I sure hope your son can really pick up the "Peanut Brittle."

Thanks for the good luck wish, I appreciate that. However, anyone posting here at this forum is way to old to have an experience that will even approximate my son's regarding age at implantation, technology of the implant, number of implants, etc. Same with the friends you have spoken to.

We must make sure when sharing stories about success or failure that we are comparing similar situations.

I do appreciate your thoughts, however, and I definitely don't want to be asking for that special kind of "Brittle".

**shel90** · 05-20-2007, 07:30 AM

I know this deaf girl who was hoh all her life until about 5 years ago she started having serious vertigo problems and her hearing loss progressed so quickly. Her doctors recommended her to get a CI and she didnt want one but the vertigo got worse to the point to where she couldnt function. So she got it and it stopped the vertigo so she was so happy to get it. I asked her about needing speech therapy afterwards, she said she only went to 3 sessions and that was it. Now, she hears well with her CI, even talking on the phone when before she could barely talk on the phone. She said she was surprised by how well it worked. I asked her what were the cons..she said she cant stand hearing high pitch noises..gives her headaches.

My point of this, sometimes people dont recieve AVT therapy if they had the experience before.

rick48 · 05-20-2007, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2

Can your daughter hear well in large crowds with considerable background noise? I do very well in quiet situations, small group discussions of 4-5 friends but more than that and introducing loud background noise, I struggle. I'm not often in those situations though and mind you, I got my CI as an adult after growing up with hearing aids.

She does as well as most hearing people do in those situations. Does she get everything , no but neither do I. We go to ballgames and she does well. We were at a wedding recently and at the table she actually did better than I because of her abilities to speech read combined with the ci. But yes, as you increase both the size of the group and the level of background noise, her ability to hear completely what everyone is saying decreases. No, I would not say in those situations she does as well as in a quiet setting or a small group of people, but who does?
Rick

**shel90** · 05-20-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Ah, I had been wondering where you stand. I agree with you on what you say about Cole'smom. Too many hearing parents seem more concerned about the child's speech when they should be concerned about their language skills. I remember one guy from my oral class who had excellent speech skills and he could hear on the phone. It was a shock reading one of his notes as it was clear his language skills weren't good. You'd think that*I* of all people would know better than to make an assumution about good speech being equal to good language skills.

I agree that CIs do not make you hearing. You're still deaf even if you sound hearing.

If I were to marry a Deaf man and we had a deaf child, I'd have it implanted only if the Dad agrees to it. It's a joint decision. BTW, I'm not so concerned about CI children of Deaf families as they're more likey to know what the child will face and that they will have normal language development. They'll not make the mistake of assuming that CIs make them hearing.

With the Hearing, it depends on their attiudes toward sign and the d/Deaf in general. Many tend to take those they deem experts a bit too uncritically - sometimes with unfortunate results.

I'd be careful about marrying a hearing man because it'll depend on his attiude toward my deafness; I hate the controlling type who think they know more than the Deaf do and discount 'em as a rule.

I think you did an excellent job of raising your son.

That's a very good point. I wonder if there have been situations where a deaf/hearing couple had a deaf child and there was a disagreement whether to implant the child or not. I can see that ruining marriages if both sides have opposing views. I did ask my husband who is hearing what he would do if we have a deaf child. He has the same views as me...whew! Good to know..

beetarehoh · 05-20-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

You are entitled to your belief, but you are 100% wrong. I have met many ci users who do daily what you believe they cannot. I am also raising one as well.

rick48

What kind of background does this CI user have? Are they the same as your daughter/son? Technology may have improve and self-esteem too?

What I mean in a smooth and fluent socializing is, you DONT repeat what everybody is saying to your daughter/son, and your daughter/son can answer every single question or comments with everybody correctly and clearly by her/himself, and everybody is talking fast and the verbal does not leave behind your daughter/son.

The kind of group setting I am talking about is like 3 to 10 people are TOGETHER either playing games, watching sports, while all of the hearing people can hear each other. Maybe your daughter/son can do well in quiet environment but what about people who are playing games? If you dont mind pay close attention to your daughter then reply back. I am very curious if it works. Thanks.

05-15-2007, 11:59 AM	#94 (permalink)
ashleysmommy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampton, VA Posts: 280	WOW. I am glad I had better resources. This mom is probably in denial. She may not want to accept the fact her child may be deaf or maybe just hoh. I almost went that way. I am so glad I snapped out of it. You can never have too much info on hearing loss for children. If I didn't feel the docs were moving fast enough I went over their heads and set up my own appointments with the specialists. I knew there was help out there I just had to take advantage of it. I hope this mom comes around. Maybe the info will help her understand her child better. I know I would have appreciated it. __________________ Smile ! It adds to your face value Right Side MED-EL Pulsar March 05, 2007 Activated April 05, 2007 with Tempo + Left Side MED-EL Sonata February 13, 2008 Activated March 12, 2008 with Opus 1 Upgraded to Opus 2 both sides December 29, 2008

05-15-2007, 05:15 PM	#97 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,486 Blog Entries: 3	I found this website...very interesting Welcome to the Cochlear War homepage __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

05-20-2007, 07:30 AM	#117 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,486 Blog Entries: 3	I know this deaf girl who was hoh all her life until about 5 years ago she started having serious vertigo problems and her hearing loss progressed so quickly. Her doctors recommended her to get a CI and she didnt want one but the vertigo got worse to the point to where she couldnt function. So she got it and it stopped the vertigo so she was so happy to get it. I asked her about needing speech therapy afterwards, she said she only went to 3 sessions and that was it. Now, she hears well with her CI, even talking on the phone when before she could barely talk on the phone. She said she was surprised by how well it worked. I asked her what were the cons..she said she cant stand hearing high pitch noises..gives her headaches. My point of this, sometimes people dont recieve AVT therapy if they had the experience before. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

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05-15-2007, 12:08 AM	#91 (permalink)
Cole's mom Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 24	Thanks for asking the parents opinion. I couldn't believe how out of touch the mom seemed in your story, seems incomprehensible to me to let a kid grow up without language, hopefully he was late identified and she was just getting used to the idea. As for your responsibility to help the boy, I would drop by with the information, and see if she has any questions, but then you're right, it isn't your responsibility anymore. However, maybe she is still intimidated so if there is someone who is hearing at your school, they could meet her and offer more info?? That is a tough dilema!!! In the end, hopefully you don't see him at your school in a few years significantly delayed and in need of a lot of extra work, when it really isn't that hard to start when they are young.

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