"Letting the Child Decide" - Page 11

Raykat · 05-27-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Neecy, deaf and hard of hearing babies babble!
Boult, what does a double amputee being able to run against bipedials have to do with anything I was talking about?
He runs............so what? His legs and feet haven't magicly regrown.
Also, the vision implant doesn't give blind and low vision people sight, the way sighted people think of sight. It gives them SOME sight, but not at all the way we see.

Deafdyke...what I was getting at was not growing new limbs or the blind magicly seeing again, I was refering to prosethics, artificial limbs, and for eyesight just ordinary glasses...I mean if one is short sighted why dont they say "well that is how I was born, that is my culture" and stay short sighted not get glasses.

Raykat · 05-27-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Because it is the medical vs. cultural model that's why

well its not a very good model if they keep bashing each other. I used to think having a disability or whatever you like to call it made people more tolerant.

**shel90** · 05-27-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

well its not a very good model if they keep bashing each other. I used to think having a disability or whatever you like to call it made people more tolerant.

The models are used in college programs for audiology, deaf ed, social worker, in the medical field for deafness and in schools. It is very widely studied and debated all over. In fact, in one of my audiology classes at Gallaudet, our project was to combine the medical and cultural models into a more middle ground model that everyone can agree on. I cant remember what grade I got on it. That time, I was just learning about both models and really had no concept of them. Now after working in the deaf ed field, I have a better understanding of them.

We are just disagreeing cuz many deaf and hearing people feel that they are fine being deaf or that deafness is to be respected and dont see the need to fix deafness but many hearing and deaf people see it as something that needs to be fixed. Most of us here are probably in the middle ground anyway.

Yes, I admit that many of us, including me, got carried away with the bashings. Oh well.

**shel90** · 05-27-2007, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

Deafdyke...what I was getting at was not growing new limbs or the blind magicly seeing again, I was refering to prosethics, artificial limbs, and for eyesight just ordinary glasses...I mean if one is short sighted why dont they say "well that is how I was born, that is my culture" and stay short sighted not get glasses.

Deaf Culture has a long history going back centuries ..totally different from eyesight. Did u watch "Through Deaf Eyes"?

If u dont feel u are a part of deaf culture cuz u are deaf, no problem and that's your business. There are many people that felt lost in the hearing world and couldnt fit in so when we found the deaf community and Deaf Culture, a connection was made for the first time. Everyone is different. Many of us feel that some people whether here or out there dont really respect Deaf culture and that is something many of us value.

Audiofuzzy · 05-28-2007, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Easy one.........babies babble because they like the hear their own voices, havent you ever seen a small baby make a sound, maybe a louder sound than it has made before, stop, listen, then repeat the same sound.......my mother always said I was a very quiet baby, maybe be cause I couldnt hear my own voice..........any thoughts on that.

deaf babies can not hear their own voice, so obviously is not because they like to hear it.
babies babble because it is simply how they develope, exercise and perfect their vocal organs, and later they try to immitate what they hear.

Fuzzy

Raykat · 05-28-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofuzzy

deaf babies can not hear their own voice, so obviously is not because they like to hear it.
babies babble because it is simply how they develope, exercise and perfect their vocal organs, and later they try to immitate what they hear.

Fuzzy

maybe I should have said HEARING babies babble, if you read my post correctly you will see that I was a deaf baby, hence a very quiet one.

Audiofuzzy · 05-28-2007, 04:18 AM

I did read you correctly- the deaf babies babble too, only later on they do not develope proper oral skills because part of this development is the ability to imitate sound.

some babies just are more quiet then the others. my daughter (hearing) was a quiet baby, too.

Fuzzy

flip · 05-28-2007, 04:31 AM

"Preverbal vocal and auditory skills are essential precursors of spoken language development.."

As we can see, Raykat admits she did not babble much when she was baby, now she is a sucessful oral deaf person. Essential precursors of spoken language? Nah.. don't think so, or perhaphs? No evidence here for sure.

This statement above, from the attempt done by Cloggy to throw in irrefutable evidence, is very vague, and as we, see, interpreted in different ways here. That's not what irrefutable evidence is about, Cloggy, look forward to your next attempt.

Raykat · 05-28-2007, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Deaf Culture has a long history going back centuries ..totally different from eyesight. Did u watch "Through Deaf Eyes"?

If u dont feel u are a part of deaf culture cuz u are deaf, no problem and that's your business. There are many people that felt lost in the hearing world and couldnt fit in so when we found the deaf community and Deaf Culture, a connection was made for the first time. Everyone is different. Many of us feel that some people whether here or out there dont really respect Deaf culture and that is something many of us value.

So you mean there is no blind culture,....and why is loss of eyesight any different from loss of hearing?

I am not disrespecting deaf culture, just trying to understand why it is ok to "fix" one problem but not another. Do you think deafness is more complex than blindness?

Raykat · 05-28-2007, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

"Preverbal vocal and auditory skills are essential precursors of spoken language development.."

As we can see, Raykat admits she did not babble much when she was baby, now she is a sucessful oral deaf person. Essential precursors of spoken language? Nah.. don't think so, or perhaphs? No evidence here for sure.

This statement above, from the attempt done by Cloggy to throw in irrefutable evidence, is very vague, and as we, see, interpreted in different ways here. That's not what irrefutable evidence is about, Cloggy, look forward to your next attempt.

Of course I wouldnt babble much as I couldnt hear my own voice, didnt get diagnosed until 5 yrs old, so no h/s, no sound

flip · 05-28-2007, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

Of course I wouldnt babble much as I couldnt hear my own voice, didnt get diagnosed until 5 yrs old, so no h/s, no sound

The paper Cloggy threw in, make claims that preverbal vocal and auditory skills are essential to develop spoken language skills, something that not is true, if we use you as an example, right?

flip · 05-28-2007, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

So you mean there is no blind culture,....and why is loss of eyesight any different from loss of hearing?

I am not disrespecting deaf culture, just trying to understand why it is ok to "fix" one problem but not another. Do you think deafness is more complex than blindness?

Deafhood Defined

Perhaps a bit overwhelming, but explains some of the deaf aspects and culture. From a medical perspective, deafness seems to be more complex than blindness. From a cultural perspective, it also again seems to be more complex than blindness. Blind people does for example not have their own language. It's not possible to ask what deaf culture thinks of that or this, as it's a basket of different experiences and views.

Oralists have several times claimed that a own language for deaf people not is necessary, nor a own culture, but lack empirical evidence and support from a broad range of profession educated people and researchers for those claims, as we can see on this board.

**shel90** · 05-28-2007, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

So you mean there is no blind culture,....and why is loss of eyesight any different from loss of hearing?

I am not disrespecting deaf culture, just trying to understand why it is ok to "fix" one problem but not another. Do you think deafness is more complex than blindness?

Yes, it is very complex. The problem with fixing deafness is the attitudes that if it is fixed, deaf people dont need a visual language. Nobody here at AD are saying that but out there that is the attitude and the problem is not all deaf children succeed well enough, whether with CIs or HAs, not to need a visual language and then end up language delayed due to not being exposed to a visual language. That doesnt happen in just children with CIs only but children who dont have CIs like me, for example. I was lucky that I loved to read which helped me with the development of literacy skills..if I didnt read all the time like I did, I wouldnt be able to read or write at the level I am at now. My brother was a different story..tried oral only on him for the first 5 years...he didnt succeed so he fell behind at the public schools and as a result, got referred to the deaf school where he was finally exposed to a visual language..a language that he had full access to so he started picking it up so fast and finally his language started developing. Unfortunately, his language was developing 4 years late therefore putting teaching him reading and writing on hold until he could understand concepts. I still see that happening today even with children who have CIs. That's why I am against the attitude of "Ok the child is fixed..he/she is hearing." Some kids do well and some dont do well. It is those who dont do well are the ones that I work with. I feel for them cuz they have to learn two languages at the same time without a strong L1 language. It is not easy for them and no wonder many of them get so frustrated and give up on learning. They are too young to understand the importance of learning.

It happened with AG Bell a century ago who claimed that he could make all deaf people oral. That failed and left a lot of bitterness from deaf people who grew up struggling because of his views. To many deaf people, CIs are equalivant to AG's Bell's view. Making deaf people like hearing instead of accepting their deafness and denying them a visual language therefore limiting them. That's the cultural view..."leave us alone..we do fine as we are with sign language." It is true..I know many deaf people who have professional jobs whose primary language is ASL. They are happy and content without the need to hear. Funny, I find that those deaf who grew up in Deaf schools dont have as many issues with the hearing world as those who grew up mainstreamed. That's just my observation on the people I have met..not applying to deaf people worldwide.

With CIs, they are different..when successful they do work well as opposed to HAs. Just the problem is every child is different and work differently with CIs. Just dont want a "one size fits all" attitude and assume that if it worked for this one child, it will work for all. If it did, I wouldnt be here with this view.

When I became fluent in ASL, I realized how much I really missed out a lot growing up in the hearing world and I went thru a stage of pure anger against my family and the teachers for choosing that route for me. With signing, I feel comfortable and at complete ease as opposed to speaking in which I have to read lips and in a large group, forget it so I end up sitting there quiet and left out which I dont enjoy cuz I am a social person and like to know what everyone is talking about.

rick48 · 05-28-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Deafhood Defined

It's not possible to ask what deaf culture thinks of that or this, as it's a basket of different experiences and views.

Oralists have several times claimed that a own language for deaf people not is necessary, nor a own culture, but lack empirical evidence and support from a broad range of profession educated people and researchers for those claims, as we can see on this board.

You are contradicting yourself. First you say that it is not possible to ask what Deaf Culture thinks about a particular issue because it is too broad to have a uniform view on an issue but then in the very next sentence, you assign an a single uniform view to a whole group of undefined people, "Oralists", just to prove your point.

Sorry, can't have it both ways and you are wrong. There are people who recognize the existence of Deaf Culture but who are either oral themselves or who have chosen an oral method of language communication for their children.

flip · 05-28-2007, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yes, it is very complex. The problem with fixing deafness is the attitudes that if it is fixed, deaf people dont need a visual language. Nobody here at AD are saying that but out there that is the attitude and the problem is not all deaf children succeed well enough, whether with CIs or HAs, not to need a visual language and then end up language delayed due to not being exposed to a visual language. That doesnt happen in just children with CIs only but children who dont have CIs like me, for example. I was lucky that I loved to read which helped me with the development of literacy skills..if I didnt read all the time like I did, I wouldnt be able to read or write at the level I am at now. My brother was a different story..tried oral only on him for the first 5 years...he didnt succeed so he fell behind at the public schools and as a result, got referred to the deaf school where he was finally exposed to a visual language..a language that he had full access to so he started picking it up so fast and finally his language started developing. Unfortunately, his language was developing 4 years late therefore putting teaching him reading and writing on hold until he could understand concepts. I still see that happening today even with children who have CIs. That's why I am against the attitude of "Ok the child is fixed..he/she is hearing." Some kids do well and some dont do well. It is those who dont do well are the ones that I work with. I feel for them cuz they have to learn two languages at the same time without a strong L1 language. It is not easy for them and no wonder many of them get so frustrated and give up on learning. They are too young to understand the importance of learning.

It happened with AG Bell a century ago who claimed that he could make all deaf people oral. That failed and left a lot of bitterness from deaf people who grew up struggling because of his views. To many deaf people, CIs are equalivant to AG's Bell's view. Making deaf people like hearing instead of accepting their deafness and denying them a visual language therefore limiting them. That's the cultural view..."leave us alone..we do fine as we are with sign language." It is true..I know many deaf people who have professional jobs whose primary language is ASL. They are happy and content without the need to hear. Funny, I find that those deaf who grew up in Deaf schools dont have as many issues with the hearing world as those who grew up mainstreamed. That's just my observation on the people I have met..not applying to deaf people worldwide.

With CIs, they are different..when successful they do work well as opposed to HAs. Just the problem is every child is different and work differently with CIs. Just dont want a "one size fits all" attitude and assume that if it worked for this one child, it will work for all. If it did, I wouldnt be here with this view.

When I became fluent in ASL, I realized how much I really missed out a lot growing up in the hearing world and I went thru a stage of pure anger against my family and the teachers for choosing that route for me. With signing, I feel comfortable and at complete ease as opposed to speaking in which I have to read lips and in a large group, forget it so I end up sitting there quiet and left out which I dont enjoy cuz I am a social person and like to know what everyone is talking about.

Just want to add that when I typed "just a basket of different experiences", I was not thinking about the terms pathological and cultural view on deafness. It was more with the fact that one should be aware about the difficulty to ask one member of a culture, to speak on behalf of all the other members.

Great post, Shel!

rick48 · 05-28-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

well its not a very good model if they keep bashing each other. I used to think having a disability or whatever you like to call it made people more tolerant.

Raykat,

Its a theory, that is all it is. The problem becomes when you attempt to boil it down to a few very simplistic terms. Thus, is choose to raise your child orally then you are trying to "fix" his deafness, you "cannot accept your child", you are "denying him his identity", etc. These simplistic terms of course fail to define the process that most hearing parents of deaf children go through in raising their children.

Rick

rick48 · 05-28-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Just want to add that when I typed "just a basket of different experiences", I was not thinking about the terms pathological and cultural view on deafness. It was more with the fact that one should be aware about the difficulty to ask one member of a culture, to speak on behalf of all the other members.

That also applies to many other groups of people as well.

flip · 05-28-2007, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

You are contradicting yourself. First you say that it is not possible to ask what Deaf Culture thinks about a particular issue because it is too broad to have a uniform view on an issue but then in the very next sentence, you assign an a single uniform view to a whole group of undefined people, "Oralists", just to prove your point.

Sorry, can't have it both ways and you are wrong. There are people who recognize the existence of Deaf Culture but who are either oral themselves or who have chosen an oral method of language communication for their children.

Sure there are different opinions among oral people, and sorry I offended you by labeling everyone in one group. I agree with you on this.

But if I changed it from "oralists" to "some people thrilled by the possibilities of speech and auditory technology", it would be all perfect, right?

For example, Cloggy's claims that Stavanger and Anchorage does not have deaf culture is an example on statements that deaf culture does not exists even if there are deaf communities there. He happens to be thrilled by speech skills in deaf people, too.

flip · 05-28-2007, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Raykat,

Its a theory, that is all it is.

Rick

Another oralist denying the experiences of deaf people, and claims from educated people and researchers. Well, I was perhaps right after all, when I stated that oralists keeps to reject the deaf culture as something real.

flip · 05-28-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

That also applies to many other groups of people as well.

And the point is?

**shel90** · 05-28-2007, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Another oralists denying the experiences of deaf people, and claims from educated people and researchers. Well, I was perhaps right after all, when I stated that oralists keeps to reject the deaf culture as something real.

I think Rick was referring to both models.I could be wrong.

rick48 · 05-28-2007, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Sure there are different opinions among oral people, and sorry I offended you by labeling everyone in one group. I agree with you on this.

But if I changed it from "oralists" to "some people thrilled by the possibilities of speech and auditory technology", it would be all perfect, right?

For example, Cloggy's claims that Stavanger and Anchorage does not have deaf culture is an example on statements that deaf culture does not exists even if there are deaf communities there. He happens to be thrilled by speech skills in deaf people, too.

Not offended, just pointing out a contratictory statement. Your change does not work for me, all you have done is to change the label and apply it to the same contradictory statement.

As for Cloggy's statements, give it a rest! Get over it and move on. He made a point yet you persist in going over it ad nauseum. Great, there is a deaf soccer club or whatever in Stavanger, wonderful, now we can all sleep peacefully at night.
Rick

flip · 05-28-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Not offended, just pointing out a contratictory statement. Your change does not work for me, all you have done is to change the label and apply it to the same contradictory statement.

As for Cloggy's statements, give it a rest! Grow up and move on. He made a point yet you persist in going over it ad nauseum. Great, there is a deaf soccer club or whatever in Stavanger, wonderful, now we can all sleep peacefully at night.
Rick

Nope.. you are wrong this time. But nevermind.

When I make general claims, I back up with facts and examples, in this case, with Cloggy as a perfect example. Something that you are miles away from managing.

Have a good night sleep!

**shel90** · 05-28-2007, 08:22 AM

It is morning

Guess u both are from the other side of the world. Good night to both of u.

Boult · 05-28-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

It is morning

Guess u both are from the other side of the world. Good night to both of u.

I don't think Rick was saying good night to us.. It was some sort of english idioms. let's say in other words, "wonderful, now we can all stop pulling our panties in bunch."

Hwy99 · 05-28-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boult

I don't think Rick was saying good night to us..

Shel90 is talking to Flip, not Rick. Just correcting your mistake

Boult · 05-28-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Shel90 is talking to Flip, not Rick. Just correcting your mistake

nope.. hey let's not get into quibble over that...

rjr2006 · 05-28-2007, 10:54 AM

When I was a teenager, I went to several hospitals to see if I was eligible for a CI. When a doctor said that I was eligible, I looked up pictures of actual operation and I felt that I didn't want to do it because of drilling. I can imagine how painful it would be after the operation.
On the other hand, I am happy with digital HA's.....

rick48 · 05-28-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Nope.. you are wrong this time. But nevermind.

When I make general claims, I back up with facts and examples, in this case, with Cloggy as a perfect example. Something that you are miles away from managing.

Have a good night sleep!

Keep telling yourself that and maybe someday it will come true!
Pleasant dreams,
Rick

Audiofuzzy · 05-28-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

I felt that I didn't want to do it because of drilling.

I don't think this parcticular part is painful at all because as I understand it , the drilling is done in the bone, and the bone has no nerves to feel pain.

Cochlear Implant Surgery

Fuzzy

05-28-2007, 08:22 AM	#324 (permalink)
shel90 Let It Snow!!!! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,285 Blog Entries: 3	It is morning Guess u both are from the other side of the world. Good night to both of u. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

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05-28-2007, 04:18 AM	#307 (permalink)
Audiofuzzy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,384	I did read you correctly- the deaf babies babble too, only later on they do not develope proper oral skills because part of this development is the ability to imitate sound. some babies just are more quiet then the others. my daughter (hearing) was a quiet baby, too. Fuzzy

05-28-2007, 04:31 AM	#308 (permalink)
flip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,848	"Preverbal vocal and auditory skills are essential precursors of spoken language development.." As we can see, Raykat admits she did not babble much when she was baby, now she is a sucessful oral deaf person. Essential precursors of spoken language? Nah.. don't think so, or perhaphs? No evidence here for sure. This statement above, from the attempt done by Cloggy to throw in irrefutable evidence, is very vague, and as we, see, interpreted in different ways here. That's not what irrefutable evidence is about, Cloggy, look forward to your next attempt.

05-28-2007, 10:54 AM	#328 (permalink)
rjr2006 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 1,849	When I was a teenager, I went to several hospitals to see if I was eligible for a CI. When a doctor said that I was eligible, I looked up pictures of actual operation and I felt that I didn't want to do it because of drilling. I can imagine how painful it would be after the operation. On the other hand, I am happy with digital HA's.....