Comparing CI with HA's

It's easy to compare cochlear implant (CI) with a hearing aid (HA) and frequently this is done in a single breath. However, not by people that have used a HA before, and now use the CI. They explain that CI goes beyond HA. Not just a little, but a lot. For Lotte we have no comparison other than she did not benefit - in our opinion - from HA's.

But there's another part of the equasion that is quickly forgotton. And that is the CI of 10 years ago, compared to now. I quickly compare to our computer now and 10 years ago. We cannot imagine using a 10-year computer with the programs we use nowaday's. It simply will slow down to a complete halt.

This is how I see CI as well. 10 Years ago, software and hardware were far slower and perhaps this brought the CI's closes to the HA in most respects. After all. With the speeds available at that time, all processing power needed to be used for speech. But nowadays, technology has become so much faster, that with the same capacity a wider frequency-range can be used. And is used.

Manufacturers are moving more and more into virtual electrodes and creating software specialised to enjoying music. The new CI-user is no longer satisfied with "just" speech but wants to go beyond that. More environmental sounds and music.

With Lotte we see her speech development which is going well, but more impressive is the level at which she hears. She is able to hear very soft sounds. She's able to whisper, and understand whispering.
But with music she shows little interest. She uses melody but sings in a monotone way..
Is this due to her development or is this due to mapping being focused on speech?

The technician mapping her is very good at his job. He has done it from the first time CI came around, and in a way made it possible for many children and adults to hear.
But this might be the problem. Focus has allways be on speech for him. THIS was the goal and accomplishment. The achievement was to go from deaf to hearing to understanding speech. There was technically never room to go beyond speech, and perhaps this is still the attitude and expectation. Even though technology has moved one, the idea of hearing more than speech is still foreign.

Obviously I'm lacking knowledge in this area. What are the possibilities with Freedom CI. She has the latest equipment both inside and outside, but I have no idea as to what level it is being used.
What I do know is that Lotte is developing well, speech-wise, and that she has never had a bad experience with CI in the way that she does not want to wear it. She hardly pulls it off due to discomfort and is quick to put it on again.
But, there must be more possibilities. Other companies advertise with their progress (e.g. Advance Bionics, MedEl), showing the possibilities, but little is heared when we do our mapping.

Time to investigate!!

Cloggy

The technology in the latest generation of CI is (as my neighbor who is an I.T. infastructure architect says) mindboggoling. From researching the possibilities of the freedom, I have found the same phrase in several different places. They all say that the freedoms hardware is capable of using software that has not yet been created.
I asked my neighbor about this statement and how this could be. The way he explained it, (after he also researched it) the harddrive is similar in theory to a thumb drive or flashdrive. It can basically be erased and reprogrammed to do anything you want it to in terms of translating actual sound into computer data. I am sure that I am screwing this up badly, but I am pretty much computer illiterate.
Another way I had this explained to me was , imagine that current software for the freedom charted each freq, db, of sound on every inch on a peice of graph paper. The processor is capable of adding new sound freq and db every 16th or 32nd of an inch.

Cloggy, the reason why Lotte does not appreciate music is simple...She does not hear like a hearing person. Yes, there are people who are "almost hearing" with the CI, but most of those people are late deafened, or who probaly lost their hearing relatively late.
Most pediatric dhh people do not hear the way hearing people, think of hearing.
We get SOME access to hearing, but the quality of our hearing to hearing people, is like the difference in computer animation between, the animation used in Titanic vs. the computer animation used in Polar Express.
It really is drasticly diffrent.

It's easy to compare cochlear implant (CI) with a hearing aid (HA) and frequently this is done in a single breath. However, not by people that have used a HA before, and now use the CI. They explain that CI goes beyond HA. Not just a little, but a lot.

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Cloggy, you miss the point. The technological process of how a particular device produces "hearing" is different yes....but you know what? The technological process is probally different when comparing how digital and analog hearing aids or tactile aids or those high frequncy transponder things work. The end result is the same. They all allow dhh people to somewhat access sound....although NOT at ALL the way a hearing person may experiance sound.

DeafDyke,

Again you are comparing CI's with HA's, and showing lack of knowledge of the first.
Many people with CI are enjoying music BECAUSE of their CI.

Cloggy said:

What I do know is that Lotte is developing well, speech-wise, and that she has never had a bad experience with CI in the way that she does not want to wear it. She hardly pulls it off due to discomfort and is quick to put it on again.
But, there must be more possibilities. Other companies advertise with their progress (e.g. Advance Bionics, MedEl), showing the possibilities, but little is heared when we do our mapping.

Time to investigate!!

Cloggy

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Cloggy I just finished a trial where they were trying out different programming software. I have a freedom. When it came time to put in programs for me to use my audi had to use the new software on the laptop. She also mentioned that she had told the cholear rep that she'd also do another study that they were/are going to do. So Cholear is working on different programming stratagies even if you aren't hearing much about them right now.

Happy New Year.

Cloggy said:

DeafDyke,

Again you are comparing CI's with HA's, and showing lack of knowledge of the first.
Many people with CI are enjoying music BECAUSE of their CI.

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Oh, I enjoyed music as a moderatly hoh child and I ENJOY music as a person with a CI now, much more then I enjoyed music as a person with a HA who had a severe bilateral loss. So as in everything CI or HA and chile vs adult and early deafened vs late deafened it's all YMMV.

Cloggy perhaps it's the type of music. I find that listening to Johnny Cash is much easier for me then listening to most female singers. But then it's always been pretty much that way for me, personally I prefer country over rock. But having grown up in a household where orchestra music could be coming out of the stereo, while as a child/teen i hated it I actually enjoy it now.

Give Lotte time, she may come to enjoy music or she may never really enjoy it. But give her a variety of styles to listen to and let her decide what she likes.

Happy New Year.

jag said:

Cloggy I just finished a trial where they were trying out different programming software. I have a freedom. When it came time to put in programs for me to use my audi had to use the new software on the laptop. She also mentioned that she had told the cholear rep that she'd also do another study that they were/are going to do. So Cholear is working on different programming stratagies even if you aren't hearing much about them right now.

Happy New Year.

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Cool, that's good to know!

Cloggy said:

...
Manufacturers are moving more and more into virtual electrodes and creating software specialised to enjoying music. The new CI-user is no longer satisfied with "just" speech but wants to go beyond that. More environmental sounds and music.

With Lotte we see her speech development which is going well, but more impressive is the level at which she hears. She is able to hear very soft sounds. She's able to whisper, and understand whispering.
But with music she shows little interest. She uses melody but sings in a monotone way..
Is this due to her development or is this due to mapping being focused on speech?

Click to expand...

I don't think it is the mapping "per se". It is a developmental issue. I was enjoying music within a couple of days of being turned on for the first time. Obviously, it got better as the weeks and months went by with all the mappings I had (where they gradually opened up my range).

Consider how hearing children learn about the world about them via hearing. They are exposed to all kinds of stimulus from day 1 and they have to cope with all kinds of things. As a part of that, they get exposed to music in various forms and they don't really "clue" in for a while.

Cloggy said:

The technician mapping her is very good at his job. He has done it from the first time CI came around, and in a way made it possible for many children and adults to hear.
But this might be the problem. Focus has allways be on speech for him. THIS was the goal and accomplishment. The achievement was to go from deaf to hearing to understanding speech. There was technically never room to go beyond speech, and perhaps this is still the attitude and expectation. Even though technology has moved one, the idea of hearing more than speech is still foreign.

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No, the audis are aware of how music can enhance people's lives. My audi and I have talked the subject and she mentioned they (the companies) are working hard on addressing music as part of the total hearing experience.

jag said:

Oh, I enjoyed music as a moderatly hoh child and I ENJOY music as a person with a CI now, much more then I enjoyed music as a person with a HA who had a severe bilateral loss. So as in everything CI or HA and chile vs adult and early deafened vs late deafened it's all YMMV.

Cloggy perhaps it's the type of music. I find that listening to Johnny Cash is much easier for me then listening to most female singers. But then it's always been pretty much that way for me, personally I prefer country over rock. But having grown up in a household where orchestra music could be coming out of the stereo, while as a child/teen i hated it I actually enjoy it now.

Give Lotte time, she may come to enjoy music or she may never really enjoy it. But give her a variety of styles to listen to and let her decide what she likes.

...

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Cloggy,

I have to agree with Jag here...there are various factors involved with music appreciation. Some people just don't listen to it for whatever reason. Some only like a particular style due to what they grew up with at home. Music is simply a funny thing and there are too many aspects to it. Hopefully, Lotte will catch on to something that she likes over time especially with her friends.

Personnally for me, I never really liked hard rock and always avoided it but soft rock (especially from the 60's, 70's and early 80's) is enjoyable for me. But my first love is New Age along with a taste for Jazz and Orchestra music.

sr171soars,

My experiences with music are similar to yours. Prior to my CIs, I listened to music using direct audio input with my hearing aids, but could only hear drum beats and male vocals (depending on how loud they were). Classical and jazz music was only a mixed up, distorted jumble of sound. With my CIs, it's an entirely different experience. With my HAs, listening to music was a 1 dimensional experience. With my CIs, it's 3 dimensional. Because of the clarity and increased frequencies I receive through my implants, instrumental music, jazz and soft rock have a new life of their own. It's wonderful being able to hear the music I grew up with as a child clearer than I ever have before. By the way, soft rock from the 70's and 80's also happens to be my favorite genre.

Hear Again said:

sr171soars,

My experiences with music are similar to yours. Prior to my CIs, I listened to music using direct audio input with my hearing aids, but could only hear drum beats and male vocals (depending on how loud they were). Classical and jazz music was only a mixed up, distorted jumble of sound. With my CIs, it's an entirely different experience. With my HAs, listening to music was a 1 dimensional experience. With my CIs, it's 3 dimensional. Because of the clarity and increased frequencies I receive through my implants, instrumental music, jazz and soft rock have a new life of their own. It's wonderful being able to hear the music I grew up with as a child clearer than I ever have before. By the way, soft rock from the 70's and 80's also happens to be my favorite genre.

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Ah...you just have to try New Age. I suggest the music "Shadowdance" from the group Shadowfax. You'll love it...

Thanks for the recommendation of Shadowfax. I'll definitely have to give New Age a try! The only New Age music I've heard before was Kraftwerk. Are you familiar with them?

I have a question for you, Hear Again. Was listening to music like a 3D experience for you with a single CI or was it only like that with both CIs compared with your old HAs?

Hear Again said:

Thanks for the recommendation of Shadowfax. I'll definitely have to give New Age a try! The only New Age music I've heard before was Kraftwerk. Are you familiar with them?

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I think I heard of them but never had the chance to listen to their work. Umm...I'll will have to check it out.

Just remember there are varieties of New Age just like any other kind of music. I'm sure you can find stuff you'll like.

deafskeptic said:

I have a question for you, Hear Again. Was listening to music like a 3D experience for you with a single CI or was it only like that with both CIs compared with your old HAs?

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Listening to music with one CI *was* a 3D experience, but it was even moreso when I received bilaterals. With one CI, I could hear and identify instruments being played alone or in unison, but with two CIs, I can hear more of the details and subtleties of music (if that makes any sense ). Music sounds fuller and richer with two CIs compared to one. With one CI, it sounds softer and "tinny." (This was something I noticed after the second CI was activated.) While listening to music with one CI was an amazing experience, listening with two is even better!

sr171soars said:

I think I heard of them but never had the chance to listen to their work. Umm...I'll will have to check it out.

Just remember there are varieties of New Age just like any other kind of music. I'm sure you can find stuff you'll like.

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I'm going to check out some websites tomorrow to find some audio samples. Thanks again!

Ah, KrafWerk. I listened to that in the 80's and 90's.
Found some on YouTube.. search there..

Thanks Borgs for all the information.

To rectify. I'm not worried about Lotte's development.
My thoughts are more about how CI is radically different compared to HA's, but in order to make the most use of it, the people programming Lotte's CI should be aware of that.

Glad to head cochlear is working on new development....


DeafDyke..... did you read about people listning to music??

DeafDyke..... did you read about people listning to music??

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Um yes! Just b/c SOME people get enough benifit that they can hear music with CI, doesn't mean that EVERYONE will. I can hear music very well with my hearing aids, but that doesn't mean that EVERYONE who wears hearing aids has the abilty to hear music with them.
Cloggy, there are some hoh musicans out there. There are also some people who do enjoy music with their aids/CIs....but we don't hear it like hearing people. What we hear is very....not as sophisticated as what a hearing person hears. We process and interpret sound VERY differently. But you know.......Volta Voices did a thing on music, and they had to really reach, like "claim unilateral loss musicans" as deaf.

deafdyke said:

... We process and interpret sound VERY differently. ....

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I second that..

As for the topic,Although I am not a CI user,I am sure CIs offer much better benefit than HAs. This is particularly due to damaged cochleas that process sounds coming from HAs.. so a hearing aid user with severe /profound loss cannot get 'high' benefit from HAs since cochleas are severely damaged and cannot process sounds 'perfectly'.. In contrast to this, CIs skips damaged cochleas and offer sounds to hearing nerve much more clearly . Therefore, even though I have never experienced CIs I can readily say CIs are much better than HAs especially for people with highly damaged cochleas ( high severe loss and profound loss ).

deafdyke said:

Um yes! Just b/c SOME people get enough benifit that they can hear music with CI, doesn't mean that EVERYONE will. I can hear music very well with my hearing aids, but that doesn't mean that EVERYONE who wears hearing aids has the abilty to hear music with them.
Cloggy, there are some hoh musicans out there. There are also some people who do enjoy music with their aids/CIs....but we don't hear it like hearing people. What we hear is very....not as sophisticated as what a hearing person hears. We process and interpret sound VERY differently. But you know.......Volta Voices did a thing on music, and they had to really reach, like "claim unilateral loss musicans" as deaf.

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DD,

Why do you think some CI users don't hear the same way normally hearing people do? I know several CI users who report music, voices and environmental sounds being exactly as they remember before becoming deaf.

When I listen to music with my CIs, it sounds *exactly* the way I remember before losing my hearing. For example, a flute sounds like a flute, a clarinet like a clarinet, Mick Jagger like Mick Jagger.

I hear ALL of the characteristics of music including melody, harmony, background vocals, instrumentals and lead vocals. The only thing I *don't* hear is bass (which the CI is incapable of producing at this time).

When I'm given a pure tone hearing test with my CIs, I hear at 20-30 dB across all frequencies, so there really isn't anything I'm missing compared to someone with normal hearing.

Granted, just because *I* hear at 20-30 dB across all frequencies and hear music the way I remember it to be does not mean all CI users do. However, there are some of us who *do* hear sounds and voices exactly the same way someone with normal hearing would.

Sure, hearing with a CI isn't hearing "normally," (i.e. auditory nerve as opposed to hair cells) but that doesn't mean a CI user can't hear what someone with normal hearing does.