gnulinuxman

If you really want to...

I meant just what I wrote. I did NOT refer to signing in perfect English. You do NOT need to sign in perfect English to write in perfect English. What I am trying to point out here is that the sign language and written language the kid learns do NOT need to match in grammar. The child could become BILINGUAL. ASL to me is just another language, meaning that in my mind, I understand that ASL is different from English and Spanish (I don't even think in English when I sign ASL). Since ASL doesn't correspond with English, why not teach the kids that ASL and written English are different languages with different rules?

As a side note, it is easiest for hearing people to learn ASL after learning another oral language. Because I was bilingual (English and Spanish) before I learned ASL, I had a very open mind to its grammar differences. Too many people are still monolingual at heart when they learn to sign--and that's why they complain about ASL's grammar differences. They haven't truly opened up to learning it as another language. It REALLY helped to have two languages first--that way, I was already used to grammars other than English.

Just something to think about

Deafness

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gnulinuxman

No site sums up the Deaf Culture points I see better than http://www.cochlearwar.com

Boult

extremely biased site. with some misinformation and scare tactics.

and http://www.cochlearwar.com/forum/
If many Pro-CI users sent lot of emails and none shows up then that's because above. And is the editor neutral?

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R2D2

Straw man. I googled "cure + cochlear implant" and struggled to find anything that claimed it was a cure for deafness. There were far more references pointing out that it was not a cure.

None of us here believe that it's a cure, so why are we arguing about it? It is certainly not a mainstream claim and by making such claims a professional would put him/herself in a position of being sued for misleading information.

If there are any people who are claiming that it's a cure for deafness and that it makes deaf babies "normal" I would agree with you that such people need to be corrected and challenged. I think the "normal" claim (which has been used for hearing aids as well) is far more common but most people quickly accept the criticism when it's pointed out to them.

Cloggy

So that's why - when the choice is to have children grow up with speech - it's important that is happens ASAP. A lot of learning-possibilities is lost when one waits until the child is old enough to decide for itself.

An excellent example.

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Boult

the article in full can be found at: http://www.baby-parenting.com/baby/child.html
since the link provided by SM "can't be found"

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sr171soars

Er...this seems like a rehash of the threat of HAs when they became popular back in the 60's. So, how is it any different now with CIs? Well having experienced both, I can see the potential that CIs can provide and that upside looks very promising in the long run. Still, this is just a sideshow in what is to come.

A question come to my mind...what about the ability to repair the cochlear hairs themselves? They are already looking at that possibility and it wouldn't surprise me they pull that off. Compared to CIs, that possibility will be the real test for the deaf culture. Drum roll......the battle is just beginning...

The deaf culture will just have to decide what they want and stop worrying about progress (you can fight all you want but the world is moving on and it could care less if you want to stay deaf). The real issue is not HAs, CIs, or even repairing cochlear hairs (whenever that day comes...if it does come) but accept that people given a chance will choose to try to hear. Somebody pointed out that the deaf culture will have to learn to adapt or die. It is as simple as that.

Fragmenter

BINGO.

They can't debate because they do not have valid points.

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Cloggy

Hi VP,
Good of you to get in here. A new voice is allways good to "hear".
I can respect the choice of only learning ASL, but that decision also means that you make a choice to restrict communication.
I re-viewed "Sound & Fury" and there a choice is made to ONLY use ASL. This means moving to a community where there's a high percentage of people speaking ASL, and that's fine. But it also limits choice and people should be aware of this as well.
When growing up in deaf comunity, deaf parents, deaf family in a town with a high percentage deaf, then I can imagine ASL is the first language but the problem then is that is is very difficult to learn additional languages to communicate with people outside the comfotable community.
A "shocking" scene was where the mother of the twins explained that she needed a lot of speech therapy because she spoke like a deaf person. (Being hearing) because her parents were her rolemodels. And she grew up between other deaf people that spoke misformed.
So, holding on to ASL is great but one has to look beyond one's own world.

We did that for by learning to sign and having our daughter learning to sign the last 3 years. So we have a road open for her to a deaf world if she chooses that. But we are also taking her to the highway of hearing where she has all the tools to learn about ounds, music and different languages.

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neecy

Well the gist of the arguement being debated, is because Sweetmind said "you audists think CI's is a cure."

Its been repeatedly said by those here who have CI's and have children with CI's that it isn't. When that was pointed out, gnulinuxman said that its CI professionals who say that. But yet I've never seen an article or heard a CI professional say that.

You can't keep grasping at straws. She said "us audists".... we replied, and proved her wrong.

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Cloggy

With Sweetmind I'm still waiting for a dialog instead of reading monologs!

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Angel

Hmm..I haven't met ONE audiologist or doctors who stated that CI is a cure nor have heard anyone say such a thing but makes me wonder IF anything you said above could be true or not...


I couldn't even find ONE link provide by audiologists or doctors stated that either..

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Angel

Exactly, that what I'm wondering too...

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Bear

Neecy this is simply not true. Sweetmind and I are friends. Have you ever stopped to listen to what she has to say? Have you ever had a personal one on one conversation with the lady?

Sorry, usually I stay out of these types of topics. But in this case I do need to defend Sweetmind. She is not totally against Ci's she is very accepting of the fact that I am considering getting one, and is in fact very supportive of my decision.

She is standing up for children being implanted. She does not care if an adult decides to implant themselves. I tend to agree with this attitude. I dont believe a child should be implanted. But I do realize no matter what I say can deter a parent that wants to do so.

She is saying you are latened deaf like me and cannot compare ourselves to someone who was born deaf or became deaf at an early age. And she is right about that. We do not know what those kids go through never hearing anything like we have.

She is also saying what does Cloggy truly know about being deaf when he or she themselves is actually hearing?

I cant say I know what it is like to be blonde, as I have myself never been a blonde. But my daughter was born a blonde, does that suddenly make me an expert on being blonde? No, it just means my daughter was one at birth. So, therefore Cloggy cannot truly speak from a deaf perspective.

Try to read her posts instead of making judgements. And she is right about some people with the audist attitudes. I read alot of posts in here and chose not to post my opinions, cause I dont want them attacked or to be told that i am wrong.

I see time and time again how great CI's are from almost always the same people. I never once see from these same people any negativity about Ci's, it does feel like we are being *pushed* into a CI that they are the most wonderful thing to ever happen.

Which is why I am carefully choosing whom I speak to about my decision to get a CI. I want to also know any negative effects that a CI may or may not have. I am sure there have been people with CI's to get headaches. Are they from the CI? who knows? But it may be possible.

I am looking to gather both good and negative things about a CI and the surgery itself before I decide.

You see the thing is, I should be on the CI side, because I know what it is to hear. But, it has been 8 full months since I last heard anything and still havent decided YES or NO to a CI.

I loved to be able to hear things. So, tell me if it is taking me this long to decide how can a parent decide so quickly that a CI is a way to go?

Sometimes, and only sometimes I wonder. Are these parents truly wanting a CI because it is best for the child? Or because it is better for the parent?

Here is something to think about. If I was a true deaf person and born deaf since birth, and I then gave birth to a hearing child, and then got a doctor to agree to make that same hearing child, deaf. You would be crying foul too.

But hey it would be better for that child to be deaf, because it will grow up with deaf parents and in a deaf world!

Dont mean to make anyone mad, but this is the way I see it. Now, however, if I heard that a parent said geez, I thought a full year before deciding, and when I did I explored whether if I was in fact doing it for the child or for myself, then I would be like, then you made the right choice.

Try to understand both sides here. Many of these people are just worried that these parents of deaf children are getting Ci's for their kids for themselves and not for the kids.

I do not make that assumption. Simply, because I realize in the end it is not up to me but to that particular parent. All I can do is hope that the parents will still teach that child to sign and help that child still accept that they are in fact deaf. And keep the child in touch with the deaf community.

But, if the parents chose not to do so. I know there is nothing I can say or do that will change their minds.

So please, just try to understand each other and where everyone is coming from and the concerns they may have.


Bear

gnulinuxman

I provided the link in response to a request about the Deaf Culture side of it.

gnulinuxman

Bear, you are right. Sweetmind does have valid points. I am a friend of hers too and have had one-on-one conversations with her too. She's not deafist either (if she was, Bear and I probably would NOT be her friends at all). www.cochlearwar.com also has this opinion, but hardly anybody here seems to care that it does.

Very true.

True again. I don't pretend to understand the deaf perspective either--I do speak as a hearing person who is very much aware of the beautiful Deaf Culture.

Good point.

Thank you! Something I tried to point out several times but was flamed for doing so.

Good luck with your decision.

You don't have to take one side or the other just because you used to be able to hear.

Without a doubt, this is my #1 concern with implanting children.

VERY GOOD POINT.

Agreed 100% here. Most people would be shocked if they found out that was my point all along.

Thank you for bringing this up.

Me too.

Cloggy

The problem is... that there are so many unfounded accusations. Like.........which he doesn't.

because you allready learned how to speak. My daughter has the best possibilities now. (Have a look at Sweetminds link. Children learn best as early as possible..... You can afford to wait. If I wait, I reduce the possibilities for my daughter.Excellent question. My personal answer... It's better for both in terms of communication and overall experience of the world. My daughter would have been great without sound. She will be great with sound.......... Ah, the argument to remove someones.... Should we spend time on this?....But I appreciate your input. It's allways good to get some feedback regarding Sweetmind. It's good to see you and linusguy to help explain why Sweetmind is acting the way she does. But still, like I said elsewhere, I (and with me many others) am still looking for a dialog with her instead of her monologs.

I have no deaf perspective, she has no hearing perspective so we both can't say anything about it? Sure. She grew up deaf, I have a deaf child so we both can say something about that? Where are the bounderies?
It's nonsense. She can correct me any time when I'm wrong. She doesn't do that because she knows I'm talking from experience. She decided to ignore the information I (and many others) give and just repeats the same nonsense, accusation or insult..... like I said, it's a monolog.

But please tell her that my child can hear with CI. She sings songs, she say's "hi" to people. CI works for her. SO tell Sweetmind that it does work. Perhaps not allways, but in a lot of cases it does.
And these children that grow up hearing are happy. Just as happy as children growing up deaf. They grow up with a hearing identity. Deaf culture never lost anyone because she was never a member.

Of all the decisions I have made in my life, this was one of the best. Seeing the joy in my daughters face when she discovers a new sound..... wonderful.

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Sweetmind

How can it be extremely biased site? I guess he cannot read because of too busy with oral method rules..

This is real fair to tell Pro and Con about CI. If you mind Stop being so prejudice against and lies about Mr. Matthew Moore after all you were no longer to work with him. Thats when you are into a crap theory that tried to destroy him as Deaf Leader and Deaf person. That' is the whole fact here.

Mr. Moore work with Deaf and (not **for**) Hearing to bring up the fact and truth about being deafness itself. Just exactly what you and your follower of audist attitude people who did this to me for 8 years.

Truth comes out now. I feel betrayed all those years that people need to see the truth how d/Deaf children feels inside their painful heartaches that has been destroyed on our True soul of being deaf.





Thank you!
Sweetmind

Fragmenter

CI won't take away from my deaf children's idenity -- it will only add to it.

I totally agree with Cloggy, the earlier, the better for a child to be implanted because you cannot be indecisive about CI. They will still be in the learning curve and it'll only get easier for them when they grow older.

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Bear

''

CLoggy, hon, I was in no way trying to *support* Sweetmind's views. I am not here to be a *Sweetmind supporter* and have in fact been a member of AD longer than Sweetmind.

However, if I was a little sensitive to your posting and you in fact did not intend for your posting to insinuate that to that affect then I in fact apologize.

I just took offense to Neecy saying that she was against all Ci uses. When in fact she isn't.

Your right she does have no hearing perspective. All I was pointing out that she is saying you are hearing so to HER you cannot say from a deaf point of view.


Ahh I do apologize that you took my post as an accusation. I was not accusing anyone. I said parents, I did not say who I was referring to. I didnt mention your name.


Cloggy, in response to my posting about getting a Ci so quickly. In MY OPINION only and from no one else's. No where in any of my postings will you ever see me saying that any one person is wrong about something. I have my opinions and you have yours. It is my belief to respect YOUR opinion and mind too.

If you were the CI user I would go to you for the positive attitude about a CI and ask how it affected your life. But, being as it is your daughter who wears the CI to me you are just a *bystander* seeing how it affects her.

This is where I am being misunderstood I believe. Maybe Im wrong and please correct me if I am. I do believe that CI use can be good. Even considering one for myself.

But, in all your posts on your daughter and her CI. That I HAVE read so far, there may be some of your posts I have missed and if I have please direct me to it. BUT SO FAR I havent seen one negative side to any of your CI postings? Has she had any problems at all with it? Have you talked to other CI users who had problems with theirs?

I, in fact never questioned your reasons for implanting your daughter. But, to ME and ME only the old arguement about being deaf and turning a hearing child into a deaf child is valid.

Because SOME parents go for a CI with just that idea in mind, to make a deaf child into a HEARING CHILD.

I am in no way saying that this is what you or someone else on here who may have an implanted child tried to do. But I have seen and talked to some hearing parents with deaf children say that.

Very good answer to my question. I respect that answer! I also respect your decision to implant your daughter. I may not agree with it, but I respect it.


IF I may offer an opinion here, and hopefully you dont take this the wrong way. Maybe, now just maybe, but this is my opinion only from reading alot of your postings here.

I would tend to listen to your arguement more so if you also offered some downsides to a CI. From reading your posts, I see only POSITIVE POSITIVE POSITIVE. Yes, having a positive attitude is a good thing. However, when trying to educate someone, it usually helps to also show some negatives.

Maybe not the right example for this situation but this is what comes to mind for me. When I go to the doctor and talk to him, he will ofc tell me the positive side to it, but we almost always ask them what are the side effects if any? What about pain after the surgery? Is there a second opinion I can get? What can I expect to accomplish from this course of treatment?

We also want to know the downsides in any situation. So far, I see Positive, Positive, which is good. But, to me it feels like CI's are the most wonderful things you should get one too. And we all know it wont work for everyone.

So, keeping that in mind maybe our arguements from both sides would work better if we offered a little of both.

Yes, some of my opinions are in fact very uneducated. But, I feel I do have some valid concerns, which I dont post in full here, because instead of educating me, I would just get attacked.

So, try to keep that in mind, next time when you are trying to educate someone.

And Cloggy, this post isnt entirely directed towards you.

I am sure your daughter is doing wonderful with her CI, and that you are very proud of your decision to give her the opportunity to hear sounds with the CI. That is great, I am glad it all worked out for her.

I respect you were her parent and it was your decision to make and not mine. Please, try to remember when everybody posts, it is in fact an opinion only.

Good Luck, Cloggy.


Bear

vp

I read all posts in that thread. However, it did not help a bit to understand where your opinion stands. I think I know where you stand though from previous discussions in another forum and the current discussions here. You are against any hearing device (especiall CIs) that can help a child hear. You obviously don't think sound has importance at all, especially to born deaf children. If I am wrong please tell me. You know though what makes me wonder? Somewhere in this forum you stated that you wore your HAs until six years ago. Why did you wear them if you are so against to hearing devices? Or is it only CIs that you are opposed to? You should know though that people get CIs because they can't benefit from HAs. It is unfair to be against them simply because they can't benefit from HAs and to not have a problem with people who use HAs. So it was ok for you to use HAs, but it's not ok for people who use CIs? How is that? They share the same need, wish...they all want to hear.

So the person who started the discussion in the thread shown above had a CI? So he wasn't happy with it? And because the CI didn't work for HIM, CIs are bad? I am not sure that I understand your point. I am sorry if the CI didn't work for him but there are people who were implanted and are happy for the results. What about those cases? We simply ignore them?

I don't think people attacked him because they had an audist attitude. From what I read, he was simply very very rude. You can't tell people to shut up. Period. So they did attack him for a good reason, not because they had an audist attitude. What does that have to do with anything?

Another thing. There is a deaf school in New York, the Lexington School for the Deaf. I had visited in the past a few times. I must tell you that many children who attended that school had been implanted. What surprised me is that adolescents were implanted too...not because their parents wanted it but because THEY wanted to find out how it is to hear. Is that bad? To want to experience hearing? What would you say to an adolescent who wants to hear? Don't get a CI because sound is not important? ASL in our language? You don't need speech? You don't need hearing? Keep in mind that all these children used sign as their main language and did work on their speech.
I would like to know what you would say to a deaf adolescent who is asking to get a CI. Really what would you tell to this young person?

Fragmenter

Amen. What's so bad about hearing sounds? You can hear and talk yet sign. Why is multitasking so bad?

Deaf people's attidute towards other deaf people wanting to experience hearing is eerily similar to "The Village" by M. Night Shyamalan. There is a whole new world out there... We can have the best of both worlds!

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Audiofuzzy

And what I was trying to say, ASL and written English which is a version of hearing English are so different that it is common sense to WANT to learn both, not stop at just ASL.
The child could learn and benefit from both of these.

Basically I said the same thing- differently.
Are you trying to objectively discuss things, or are you trying to find a way to discredit me personally for some reason?

We made a circle, didn't we?


BTW I am still waiting to learn how may doctors and specialist you've been to, and what did you found on Google CI+efficacy.

You personally, I am NOT interested in the sites.

Fuzzy

Cloggy

Bear, hon,


Negative feedback. I agree. It's allways more trustworthy to get the negative with the positive.
Recently, my father-in-law was in the hospital, several time close to death. The doctors told us straight how it was. Also when it was bad. The result was that when it went well, we knew it went well. Not just a nice talk, but we knew we got the real information.

So, I agree, negative views should be given as well.
She was operated upon; we took a chance on that no matter how small that chance is.
She wears a device in her head that may need replacement in the future, as in 15 to 20 years.
She wears a device on the outside of her head that is visible when not covered by hair.
She needs to go to "mappings" in order to adjust the system which means a lot of traveling.

Did she have any discomfort after the first day?? No, cannot give you a negative feedback on that.
Has she ever had any bad experiences with sound?? Yes, about 2 times. Nothing in the last 1-1/2 years.
Can she speak like her age?? No, she is lacking about 2 years.
Does she like wearing the device?? Yes, she asks for them when she comes out of her room.
Does she hate being deaf?? No, when she wakes up she can play in her room for hours, deaf. She wants to hear when other people are around.
Do people stare: Sure, out of curiosity. SOme nice conversations came from it.
Did she stop signing?? Not at first, but she uses fewer signs to us. Uses her voice whenever she can.

You know, it's difficult finding negative things with CI.
I must have missed some. Feel free to ask questions about her. On her, I'm the expert... straight after my wife!

Good Luck, Bear

And again, ask about some experiences that could be negative. Will be glad to answer them.

By the way.... what's this about taking away a sense with children so they can be part of the Deaf community?

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R2D2

I must go to the video store and get this film as I've heard similar remarks about it. Does it have closed captions?

gnulinuxman

All you've proven is that you can't read without judging people who disagree with you about cochlear implants.

That isn't even her point.

gnulinuxman

That's not the impression I got, but if that's what you really meant, then thanks for clarifying.

I'm trying to figure out where people stand on certain issues.

If you say so...


Typing that in yields a bunch of irrelevant pages.

Boult

try typing [ "cochlear implant" efficacy ] of course if you just typed "ci" you will get irrelevant. I thought you would use common sense and type the word in full instead of abbreviated.

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gnulinuxman

Perhaps I can help explain to hearing people, and perhaps late-deafened people, what born-deaf people like Sweetmind feel about implanting children.

I was born without mind-reading senses. I am happy living without them. But what if people were born who could read minds? What if I was forced to read minds and not allowed to communicate manually or orally? What if they came out with a brain implant that helped people read minds somewhat but didn't work fully and then started harassing people who couldn't read minds?

That's how I feel when I'm in these kinds of arguments. I would still prefer using my eyes and ears to communicate because those are my senses that work. That's why born-deaf people generally prefer visual communication--it is their strongest sense.

Please consider this point.

gnulinuxman

Cochlear implants aren't 100% evil. I am not against cochlear implants. I am not against cochlear implants. I am against selfish parents who implant their deaf children or force them to speak orally only because they don't want to learn to sign. I'm not saying ALL parents are that way. I am not saying that even most are that way. I am saying that MANY parents implant their children and/or force oral communication for selfish reasons. The MOTIVE is what I am talking about. I am NOT against deaf people who use cochlear implants in general. I will never be.

I'm trying to point out the Deaf Cultural perspective on cochlear implant ad campaigns and related education. I DO NOT discriminate against someone based on how they communicate. It is unfair to do so. I do NOT believe one "group" (Culturally Deaf, Culturally Hearing, Bicultural, Implanted, Non-Implanted, physically hearing, physically deaf, etc.) is better than another. We're all DIFFERENT. I don't like being accused of being against implanted deaf people. I am not, nor have I ever been, a discriminator.