EVIDENCE of being deaf with Hearing Aid device - Page 8

Sweetmind · 05-07-2006, 04:02 PM

Senior Member posted 01-11-2003 09:27 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/paren...ies/index.html

Quote:

How to boost babies' brain power
Thursday, November 14, 2002 Posted: 3:20 PM EST (2020 GMT)

(CNN) -- More than 360,000 babies are born every day on the planet. Which one of them will grow up to be a future Shakespeare, find a cure for cancer or perhaps even prove Einstein wrong?

For a smarter baby, experts say it's not all in the books -- emotional development plays a big role in raising intelligent kids.

"We really need to change that historic dichotomy of cognition on the one hand, emotions on the other hand, and realize that our emotions are the fuel that gives rise to social behavior but also to different levels of intelligence," says Dr. Stanley Greenspan, a child development researcher at the George Washington University medical school.

Genetics also plays a role, but Greenspan says a baby's future is not
written in his DNA.

"Regardless of the history of IQ tests in the family, if I see nurturing, warm, interactive people who read emotional signals well and interact well, usually I see happy, competent and bright children," Greenspan says.

Besides parent-child interaction, there are other ways to increase baby brain power that have been in the spotlight recently:

• Breast-feeding is good for a baby -- and most experts say they believe it's also good for a baby's developing brain. Those who had been breast-fed for seven to nine months scored higher on IQ tests than those breast-fed for one month or less, according to a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association in May.

• Listening to music was once thought to enhance math skills. A 1999 Harvard medical school analysis of more than a dozen studies doesn't support this claim, but music and dancing can be excellent ways to interact.

• Other research shows infants can learn basic sign language even before they speak. These infants appear to grow up a little smarter, but some experts say they think the benefit is due to increased parent-child interaction.

• Baby reading lessons are growing in popularity. The makers of video, books and flash cards aimed at the very young claim to sometimes have 2-year-olds reading simple children's books by themselves. Some experts support these programs, while others oppose them.

"If you do a little bit of looking at books with your children and inspire them to be curious about the pictures and ... what the word means, but don't get into very structured systematic teaching at too early an age," Greenspan says, "and you also interact emotionally and have fun with pretend play ... then you have the best of both worlds."

You cannot argue with me that it shows the fact about ASL itself that Deaf babies can achieve without devices if you mind. Thanks!

My whole point is that it doesnt matter if HA or CI devices help you to hear the sound, it still doesnt get you to be a hearing person anywhere without sign language. You are struggling in many ways as far as I know it so. My philosphy is that some people and their prejudice on Deaf children are failure because of their attitude. I look at it as a failure that some people dont have any respect for d/Deaf people who prefer to use our hands to communicate with that we can being ourselves as is.

Thats the whole perceptive that I am seeing what their attitude is always be the same routine over the years and years. So what do they want from us after all we did learned how to speak that they never satisfied for who we Deaf people are. They couldnt handle us at all while we can use the survival kits of orally speaking that is fine with me. However dont make us to use our deaf voices and speak all day long for their sakes.. They need to work and earn it from us that will have the two ways street. Thats all I can ask.

I just cant help but feel offended for the Deaf children who are implanted by their parents...whether their intentions are good or otherwise...That is just my strong opinion. ASL does everything...hearing people have body language...which is part of ASL whether they realize it or not and they can understand me if I use my body language. That is two way street....Tv has the body language too..but not radio. Do you understand what I mean?

Another example is babies...even though I cannot hear, I can understand what babies want and they dont cry much with me. No words need to be said. Thats a perfect example of two way street. With or without voice.

I disagree with Cloggy's quote. There are other ways besides written english that people arent aware of. People dont write in complete sentences anyways while communicating so I dont see the point.

Thank you!!

Sweetmind

Sweetmind · 05-07-2006, 04:14 PM

vp, as far as your last post is concerned...Im sure you see where I stand on those CI issues...I will leave it at that. I have seen many CI failures...including members in this very forum...they were attacked for letting it be known that their CI is failure and they regret being implanted in the first place. Check out this URL Decline of sign language You can find the person who is a former CIer and no one respects him...for example. Many CI failure ppl try to admit their experiences..but ppl with Audist attitude attacked him for swearing while describing his story...Just read this and maybe you can understand a little bit more why my opinion still stands. I want the Deaf children to get Literacy before forcing th em to hear...this cannot be expected..that is WRONG...there is no 2 ways about it. Ive seen Deaf children with out CIs express more than CI children...whats wrong with that picture??

Thank you!!

Sweetmind

Sweetmind · 05-07-2006, 04:38 PM

http://www.iamyourchild.org/early.html

Quote:

At birth, a baby's brain has about 100 billion nerve cells.
But the cells have not yet formed the critical connections that determine an individual's emotional, social, and intellectual make-up. Most of this "wiring" develops between the ages of 0 to 3.

By age 3, a child's brain has twice as many synapses - or connections - as an adult's. This suggests that infants and toddlers are biologically primed for learning, as synapses are a fundamental basis of learning. When a connection is used repeatedly in the early years, it becomes permanent. But a connection that is used rarely, or not at all, is unlikely to survive.

For example, studies show that a child who is rarely spoken to or read to in the early years may have difficulty mastering language skills later in life. Similarly, a child who is rarely played with may have difficulty with social adjustment as she grows.

Scientists have found that your relationship with your child affects his brain in many ways. By providing warm, responsive care, you strengthen the biological systems that help him handle his emotions. Research also shows that a strong, secure connection with your child helps him withstand the ordinary stresses of daily life -not just today, but in the future. A strong bond doesn't just reassure him, it actually affects the biological systems that adapt to stress.

It s proven. Why bother to force or push too hard on d/Deaf children. Give them a break and let them have their own adaption if you mind.

People are always get the wrong impression if they saw our devices in our deaf ears that we can completely hear but we dont hear everything.. That s fact. We need to stop this audist attitude people who spreads misinformation about our deafness. So be it!

Thanks!
Sweetmind

neecy · 05-07-2006, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

.

People are always get the wrong impression if they saw our devices in our deaf ears that we can completely hear but we dont hear everything.. That s fact. We need to stop this audist attitude people who spreads misinformation about our deafness. So be it!

Will you PLEASE point out to a direct quote here where somebody who has a CI (or has a child with a CI ) says that they HEAR EVERYTHING??

I have repeatedly say that I don't. Cloggy says that his daughter doesn't. Boult says that he doesn't...etc...so can you show me where its being said that somebody with a CI hears everything?

ayala920 · 05-07-2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

In other words, Sweetmind is saying that SEE1 and SEE2 were invented instead of evolving naturally. ASL, for example, evolves naturally by its users. There is no single person who invented it. By contrast, SEE1 and SEE2 were invented mainly for classroom use.

I feel it necessary to point out here that SEE1 and SEE2 were "invented" by deaf people.

Sweetmind · 05-07-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

BINGO! People complain that CIs are going to wipe out the Deaf community, but I disagree. I think that the lack of acceptance that you mentioned is going to be what ultimately drives people out of the Deaf community. How can you (all-inclusive) expect people with CIs to learn sign and want to socialize with other d/Deaf people if they see things like "CIs are evil"?

We are getting tired of people with audist attitudes who have tried to take over Deaf community that is our Deaf culture and our preservation of ASL. No one can come in our Deaf community to take ASL away from us if you mind. Then they try to control and power over us and push us away to emphasize that CI deaf kids are better than Deaf children.. What s that supposed to be?? Guess what many Deaf children are further ahead than CI deaf chidlren because they do not have ASL in their early age.

And also, you dont even think about Deaf children in the first place and shovel it into their ears that doesnt work out for them to hear.. It doesnt make any sense to me and why destroy them and forget them after it failed them at first. Force them to have SEE in the classroom that is mainstream school and Oral deaf school that is not making any sense.

Dont force us to agree with you about CI device itself that we have the right the feelings against CI device itself not to these CI deaf children or people. I rather to have them around us because they are so innocent after all parents forced them to implant as many deaf children doesnt want to have it. Is that respect?? I THINK NOT!

You are latened deaf that we couldnt argue about that since you were a hearing person and cannot speak for d/Deaf people if you mind. It s same concept that I cannot speak for d/Deaf blind s tactile sign language so that's why I posted it to help them to see the fact of what d/Deaf blind people does. I have experience to communicate with them and touch their hands while we made the conversation without any problem.

I am happy you have CI for yourself however you cannot make me for not who I am. Thanks!

So be reasonable and dont make it a big scene about CI for d/Deaf chlidren who do not hear like what you can hear because you already established a spoken language and English language. Also, listen those sounds and comprehension words before you became deaf.. So be it! Dont ruin our d/Deaf children s adaptation and true identity.

As for d/Deaf adults that makes their choices that I didnt care. They will have to deal with all that hassles soon or later. Why bother to have more than two surgeries that is not necessary and it is not emergency for d/Deaf children to have CI at first place.

Quote:

What I was trying to say is that SOME deaf people DO NOT ACCEPT the fact that they ARE DEAF.

good post Deaf Dream!

That 's exactly what I am saying for a long time because they dont have any faith in us , Deaf people and our deafness that we are successful d/Deaf people in many ways without it.

They wont allow us for the fact of who we Deaf people are. They think they are failed for/by being deaf so they want to get the attention that they got CI devices in a way.

Why would I be jealousy over you and your CI device? Ha Ha Well I guess you are jealousy that we Deaf people have a true language that works so well with Hearing people with a very postiive attitude.

I can speak very well, many people dont make their effort to communicate with me that is a barrier communication by them. It is not me as a Deaf person.

If you mind, I can speak with some good strangers that we can laugh so hard to each other even though we do not speak a long conversation like hearing people does, and all without devices. They always ask me about ASL and think it s such a beautiful language that we share from our gifted appreciation and good heart. I would be glad to teach ASL to CI users...and hearing people as well.

Have a good day!

Sweetmind

Boult · 05-07-2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

vp, as far as your last post is concerned...Im sure you see where I stand on those CI issues...I will leave it at that. I have seen many CI failures...including members in this very forum...they were attacked for letting it be known that their CI is failure and they regret being implanted in the first place. Check out this URL Decline of sign language You can find the person who is a former CIer and no one respects him...for example. Many CI failure ppl try to admit their experiences..but ppl with Audist attitude attacked him for swearing while describing his story...Just read this and maybe you can understand a little bit more why my opinion still stands. I want the Deaf children to get Literacy before forcing th em to hear...this cannot be expected..that is WRONG...there is no 2 ways about it. Ive seen Deaf children with out CIs express more than CI children...whats wrong with that picture??

Thank you!!

Sweetmind

This person changed mind and want the new Freedom by Cochlear Corp....

First said this: http://alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=516751&postcount=11

then in the same thread said this:
http://alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=516763&postcount=14

obviously you missed this thread.

Audiofuzzy · 05-07-2006, 05:43 PM

I wanted to point out that I don't think it is neccessary for the deaf person to speak,
but it is very valuable for them to know hearing English, the one that is used widely all over the world because knowing ASL grammar will come naturally with signing anyway.
But since hearing pple does not understand ASL grammar it unfortunately falls on the deaf person to learn this hearing written English. Most hearing pple does not need to know ASL grammar because they don't have any deaf in their families not they have any contact at all with any deaf pple. (I don't have any at all. I happen to see deaf pple at the mall maybe once or twice in a year.)

But the benefits of knowing both English-es are vast, starting from easy communication both ways to fully understanding anything that is written - instructions, magazines, books..

Fuzzy

Boult · 05-07-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

http://www.iamyourchild.org/early.html

It s proven. Why bother to force or push too hard on d/Deaf children. Give them a break and let them have their own adaption if you mind.

People are always get the wrong impression if they saw our devices in our deaf ears that we can completely hear but we dont hear everything.. That s fact. We need to stop this audist attitude people who spreads misinformation about our deafness. So be it!

Thanks!
Sweetmind

This study you quoted is correct. but it does not matter which language is taught.. by the way, the link is broken. please re-check the url.

anyway, I posted this study on DN and you chose to ignore it and I have posted this in AD recently and it is over at: http://alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27911 This tells you no matter which language a child learned first will learn 2nd language with little difficulty.

Sweetmind · 05-07-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

anyway, I posted this study on DN and you chose to ignore it and I have posted this in AD recently and it is over at: http://alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27911

Look at yourself and your cheeky attitude towards me.. So what makes you think that I ignored this url? Scoffs! Now you can see why I dont like you and dont trust you for lying about me to your own followers who believe you and get bad tasty lollipops from you. All I can see is you pushed me down and bashed me all the time for 8 years until now. AND what is your problem? Thank you for your true colors. I not as stupid as you think I am.

Also I have asked you to back off and show some respect because you are wasting my time and making a fool out of yourself all along. I dont deal with these kind of people that I dont have to tolerate your bigotry attitude. Just because I dont reply does not mean I didnt read it.

Quote:

This tells you no matter which language a child learned first will learn 2nd language with little difficulty.

You are not making any sense in a way since I have learned ASL with d/Deaf children and English written that is my second language that it shows a lot of improvement without device if you mind. However audist people like you and your followers who attacked about my written english. It s very hardwork for me to do my writings every day as much as I can achieve. It s hard for me to deal with because English language has to do with spoken language in many ways that you had been taught in the classrooms. Some of you think I have someone to edit my writings. Yes of course I did it in the past because I have no confidence in myself at that time because of your attacks and degradation. You wont allow Deaf people to speak out freely or give them a chance to practice with writing and learn how to open up and express their true feelings without anyone to tell them what to do after all you have no respect at all from the start. That is what teachers did to the Deaf children also.

Guess what! I understood both Bi Bi languages that is ASL and Signed English with or without voices now. First ASL then SE that combines Bi Bi language should be in the classrooms if you put those d/Deaf children into mainstream or oral deaf school. ASL would fit one language for all of us deafies and English language for all of hearies that combines both altogether as equal instead of many artificial languages that is too much gutterings.. So that way we can understand it better with our true language first then we can learn english if you allow us instead of pressuring those kids to hear with those devices that is the impression I m getting from that kind of audist attitude professional people who thinks they know it all about us even after all it failed for many years. So tell me why is that? It has nothing to do with those DEVICES.

It s our eye visualization that we can read and write from our eyes and use the creative thinking from our brains that works well. Also, ASL can help you to see the different way of explaination than having a spoken language from English language itself that is the problem we are having for years and years..

Also ASL is the most important for us to have it for communication too. Oral method is for spoken language so where is the emotions or voice tones that we will not see or hear the differences in many ways or have creative thinking.

Now who is to blame for this? Hearing people should know ASL before teaching or working with d/Deaf children. I dont feel that Teachers have the right to control or power over those d/Deaf children s true expression feelings. Does it makes sense to you? Thats two way street. Also I bet it will make a big difference.

Bi Bi language is equal to both of us.. There are a lot of people who studied many kind of foreign languages. So I do not believe they do not undrstand if they are willing to learn about ASL itself. then they will understand it better. There are many hearing people with openminds and good attitudes who made their own success with ASL already. No more excuses! Thanks!

Why force them to hear and orally speak alone that is still existing? It is not a two way street. I think I know why but I dont have to explain because I have said it aloud for a long time.. No excuses for you not to understand me from the start.

SEE is easy for hearing people to learn. However many people who want to learn ASL while they learn SEE instead that makes them not understand us deafies because someone who thinks they know it all about ASL and teach them very wrong ASL. That's why it screwed up and people are making money off of us. Is that fair to hearing people who want to learn ASL not SEE at first place?

Thank you!

Sweetmind

**Angel** · 05-07-2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetmind

vp, as far as your last post is concerned...Im sure you see where I stand on those CI issues...I will leave it at that. I have seen many CI failures...including members in this very forum...they were attacked for letting it be known that their CI is failure and they regret being implanted in the first place. Check out this URL Decline of sign language You can find the person who is a former CIer and no one respects him...for example. Many CI failure ppl try to admit their experiences..but ppl with Audist attitude attacked him for swearing while describing his story...Just read this and maybe you can understand a little bit more why my opinion still stands. I want the Deaf children to get Literacy before forcing th em to hear...this cannot be expected..that is WRONG...there is no 2 ways about it. Ive seen Deaf children with out CIs express more than CI children...whats wrong with that picture??

Thank you!!

Sweetmind

It such a shame you haven't given those hearing parents a chance to explain their reason for implantin their children with CI, have you seen any positive sides or have you choosed to ignore it instead?...

Fragmenter · 05-07-2006, 09:31 PM

My wife brought up a great point. She said the Deaf people often gives a bad impression on the hearing people... when these people gives birth to a deaf child, they automatically remember the experience. They then want to raise their deaf child 100% in a hearing world because they weren't impressed with what happened in the past. I don't blame them.

I've observed (and chided away in embarassment) situations where the Deaf people put a bad taste in the hearing people too many times.

**Angel** · 05-07-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragmenter

My wife brought up a great point. She said the Deaf people often gives a bad impression on the hearing people... when these people gives birth to a deaf child, they automatically remember the experience. They then want to raise their deaf child 100% in a hearing world because they weren't impressed with what happened in the past. I don't blame them.

I've observed (and chided away in embarassment) situations where the Deaf people put a bad taste in the hearing people too many times.

I agree, your wife seem a pretty smart woman to firgure that out as I'm starting to see that here myself

It's quite sad if you ask me...

Fragmenter · 05-07-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^Angel^

It's quite sad if you ask me...

Very.

The Deaf people mentioned are the same ones who are proud of the Deaf culture but at the same time they are hurting it. They then try to blame the declining culture on mainstream schools, oral deaf people, politics and anything else they can twist into their arguments.

R2D2 · 05-07-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragmenter

My wife brought up a great point. She said the Deaf people often gives a bad impression on the hearing people... when these people gives birth to a deaf child, they automatically remember the experience. They then want to raise their deaf child 100% in a hearing world because they weren't impressed with what happened in the past. I don't blame them.

I've observed (and chided away in embarassment) situations where the Deaf people put a bad taste in the hearing people too many times.

Do you mean that some deaf people due to their memories as children are so negative about hearing people and their motives that they are passing them on to their own children?

**Angel** · 05-07-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragmenter

Very.

The Deaf people mentioned are the same ones who are proud of the Deaf culture but at the same time they are hurting it. They then try to blame the declining culture on mainstream schools, oral deaf people, politics and anything else they can twist into their arguments.

So true, and that what it looks like to me....

Sweetmind · 05-07-2006, 10:24 PM

Democrat and Chronicle
Saturday, February 15,2003
quote:
NTID's Wetzel is first deaf female referee in NCAA Div. I basketball
by
Scott Pitoniak (reporter)

THE SILVER WHISTLE BEARING the Women's National Basketball Association logo dangles from her rear-view mirror. A gift from a WNBA referee, it serves as a compass for Marsha Wetzel's dreams.

"As I drive along, my goal is always right there in front of me," says Wetzel, the first deaf referee in Division. I women's college basketball history. "The WNBA is where I would like to be someday."

Given what she has overcome and achieved so far, it would be folly to bet against her.

It matters not that Wetzel can't hear the whistle she blows or the scoreboard buzzer. Calling upon her"radar eyes" and a keen knowledge of the game forged during the four years as a point guard for preimarily deaf Gallaudet University, Wetzel officates with a sense of auhtority that has drawn rave reviews from her supervisors in the Atlantic 10 Conference and the Patriot League.

"She is quite a woman," Marie Koch, the A-10's coordinator of officals, told USA today. "She earned her way onto the A=10 second-tier staff simply because of her refereeing ability. She worked hard at out camp. She demonstrated extreme court awareness, a good working knowledge of the game. She's one of the most receptive officials I've worked with. She's sponge. She can't learn enough."

An instructor at RIT's National Technical Institute for the Deaf, Wetzel developed a love for hoops while growing up in the Hartford, Conn, suburb of Newington in the late 1960's, early 70s. Her father played basketball in the Deaflympics, and Wetzel follwed in his sneaker steps, participating twice in the Olympic-style competition. She started four years at Gallaudet, and coached high school girls basketball at the Model Secondary School for the Deaf in Washington,D.C., after graduating in 1986.

Although she guided her team to the championship game that winter, Wetzel didn't develop a passion for coaching. But she still yearned to be involved in the game, and officiating gave her the opportunity to remain on the court, in the middle of the action.

Wetzel's 11 years odyssey from refereeing youth leagues to major college basketball has been filled with numberous obstacles. It has not been easy traversing the trail blazed by Guy Kirk, a deaf referee who has been working men's games in the Southern Conference for 17 years.

Perhaps her biggest challenge is the language barrier. For the 40 years old to communicate with her colleagues, coaches and players before, during and after games, Wetzel must provide interpreters, who use American Sign Language. It's an expensive proposition because interpreters can cost up to 45 per hour. Many school no longer pick up the expense, meaning that Wetzel incurs financial hardships her peer don't face.

"When I don't have an interpreter, I feel like a second-class citizen," she says. "I can communicate fine without one for much of the game, but there are times when I need to be able to discuss things with my partners or with a coach or a player. I've tried to read lips, but everybody has different lip movements so it's difficult."

As frustrating as that hurdle is, Wetzel isn't about to allow it to stop her from pursuing her dream. She's built a network of interpreters and is setting up a fund to help defray the expenses for her and the roughly 32 other deaf basketball officials currently working either high school or college games. (You can contribute by e-mailing Wetzel at SilentWhistle15@aol.com).

"I would like to see us get to a point where deaf officials don't face the struggles I and others have faced, as far as interpreters are concerned," says Wetzel, who teachers a class in officiating at Rochester Institute of Technology to students who are deaf. "We want to remove barriers so that we are on an equal footing with hearing refs."

Despite the obstacles, Wetzel loves what she does.

"You are out there in the flow of the game with all these great athletes," she says. "My reward is working a good game and being anonymous."

Because hand signals are such a huge part of the game, fans, players and coaches often are unaware that Wetzel can't hear. She blends into the flow.

"You don't notice that she's deaf. Bucknell coach Kathy Fedorjaka told Sports Illustrated, "until you start yelling at her and realized it's not going to do a thing."

Wetzel jokes that her deafness comes in handy when one of her calls draws the ire of a coach or player.

"I can just turn away." she says, laughing.

Although she can't hear the boos and catcalls, she's very good at reading facial expressions and body language.

"Believe me I know when somebody is upset with me," she says. "There was one game when a coach came up to me at half-time and through my interpreter really let me have it. I let her have her say. Sometimes you have to do that in order to diffuse a situation. It's part of being an official."

Wetzel says her fellow officals have been very good at protecting her back.

"If a player or coach says something totally inappropriate, she can expect to get (a technical foul)," Wetzel says. "I appreciate the support."

Wetzel, who also works some Section V girls games and local Division III contests, aspires for a busier Division I schedule. The next logical step for her would be to work conference playoff games, then take a shot at the NCAA women's tournment and the Final Four.

Her long-term goal remains the WNBA. Wetzel's reminded of that destination each time she slides into the driver's seat of her car and sees that whistle, dangling like a carrot from her rear-view mirror.

**************

Who is the person success with ASL ?

That s a real evidence !

Thanks!

Sweetmind

gnulinuxman · 05-07-2006, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^Angel^

So true, and that what it looks like to me....

Yeah, you seem to be a deaf person who's putting a bad taste in this hearing person's mouth...

The Deaf Culture has MANY very valid points on why cochlear implants are a bad idea, and I'm not convinced of the pro-CI propaganda.

**Angel** · 05-07-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

Yeah, you seem to be a deaf person who's putting a bad taste in this hearing person's mouth...

The Deaf Culture has MANY very valid points on why cochlear implants are a bad idea, and I'm not convinced of the pro-CI propaganda.

I didn't get what you are saying, care to explain that a bit more clearly please?

Are you hearing or deaf?

gnulinuxman · 05-07-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragmenter

Very.

The Deaf people mentioned are the same ones who are proud of the Deaf culture but at the same time they are hurting it. They then try to blame the declining culture on mainstream schools, oral deaf people, politics and anything else they can twist into their arguments.

Mainstream schools often tell Deaf people that signing is a bad idea and they shouldn't do it because it's a "silly little game nobody wants to play".

Oral deaf people sometimes don't care about Deaf Culture, but other ones do. The ones who don't for some reaon tend to speak out against Deaf Culture. That of course makes members of Deaf Culture feel betrayed, especially the deaf members. This is then misunderstood as an attack against all hearing people and oralists (which of course isn't since I am on the side of Deaf Culture here and my Deaf friends welcomed me).

Politics: Deaf people have been fighting for their rights for CENTURIES. Deaf Culturalists felt very intimidated when the CI appeared as the "magic cure for deafness". Most don't view themselves as being in need of a cure, and I don't view deaf people as being in need of a cure either. They were genuinely scared that their rights would be denied because people would then say "You chose not to be hearing, so you don't deserve rights."

In case anyone forgot, I am neither for nor against CI's themselves. I am very much pro-Deaf-Culture and concerned about deaf children.

gnulinuxman · 05-07-2006, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^Angel^

I didn't get what you are saying, care to explain that a bit more clearly please?

Are you hearing or deaf?

Look between my user name and avatar and you'll see the answer.

gnulinuxman · 05-07-2006, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofuzzy

But since hearing pple does not understand ASL grammar it unfortunately falls on the deaf person to learn this hearing written English.

Please don't EVER generalize that way again. I am a hearing person who FULLY UNDERSTANDS ASL grammar. Be careful in your generalizations (like by saying "most hearing people" instead).

And I also see the classic mistake here: Do you realize that perhaps if Deaf people are taught that English is a different language with a different set of rules, you could end up with someone who can sign perfect ASL and writes with perfect English?

R2D2 · 05-08-2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

Yeah, you seem to be a deaf person who's putting a bad taste in this hearing person's mouth...

The Deaf Culture has MANY very valid points on why cochlear implants are a bad idea, and I'm not convinced of the pro-CI propaganda.

Well that is a matter of opinion. It becomes a problem however if they start to influence policy makers and actually stop people from carrying out their decisions and choices.

Look I think it's fine for people who are opposed to CIs to voice their feelings and thoughts and perhaps if a parent listens to both sides they may choose one or the other.

I am pro choice. Choice for the parents and choice for the children when they grow up into adults. They have the choice to either continue with their CI or to turn it off if they no longer want it.

R2D2 · 05-08-2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman[b

Oral deaf people[/b] sometimes don't care about Deaf Culture, but other ones do. The ones who don't for some reaon tend to speak out against Deaf Culture. That of course makes members of Deaf Culture feel betrayed, especially the deaf members. This is then misunderstood as an attack against all hearing people and oralists (which of course isn't since I am on the side of Deaf Culture here and my Deaf friends welcomed me)..

If you are talking about oral deaf people on this board then I wouldn't say they were speaking out against deaf culture per se. I would say that the argument is rather on the form that deaf culture should take. Whether it has to be narrowly defined (e.g. sign only) or whether it should take on a more broad or flexible form. I am of the flexible bent because I believe in choice and because times are changing and we have to accept that people change with the times.

Quote:

Politics: Deaf people have been fighting for their rights for CENTURIES. Deaf Culturalists felt very intimidated when the CI appeared as the "magic cure for deafness". Most don't view themselves as being in need of a cure, and I don't view deaf people as being in need of a cure either. They were genuinely scared that their rights would be denied because people would then say "You chose not to be hearing, so you don't deserve rights."

I don't see CIs as a cure either and no one from my audiologist, surgeon or the literature from Cochlear has ever told me it was a cure. In fact the people who seem to bang on the most about "cure" are the radical deaf culturalists themselves.

Quote:

In case anyone forgot, I am neither for nor against CI's themselves. I am very much pro-Deaf-Culture and concerned about deaf children.

Great.

**Angel** · 05-08-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2

Well that is a matter of opinion. It becomes a problem however if they start to influence policy makers and actually stop people from carrying out their decisions and choices.

Look I think it's fine for people who are opposed to CIs to voice their feelings and thoughts and perhaps if a parent listens to both sides they may choose one or the other.

I am pro choice. Choice for the parents and choice for the children when they grow up into adults. They have the choice to either continue with their CI or to turn it off if they no longer want it.

I absolutely agree!! well said there girl

neecy · 05-08-2006, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

Yeah, you seem to be a deaf person who's putting a bad taste in this hearing person's mouth...

The Deaf Culture has MANY very valid points on why cochlear implants are a bad idea, and I'm not convinced of the pro-CI propaganda.

in WHAT regard? Implanting children or adults? My experience speaks for itself and is hardly propaganda. I'll tell the truth as to what *I* have experienced when asked, but I don't prosthetalize, and neither does anybody I've seen here who is pro-CI.

Educating those who don't know better and dishing "pro-CI propaganda" are two different things.

Audiofuzzy · 05-08-2006, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Please don't EVER generalize that way again. I am a hearing person who FULLY UNDERSTANDS ASL grammar. Be careful in your generalizations (like by saying "most hearing people" instead).

And I also see the classic mistake here: Do you realize that perhaps if Deaf people are taught that English is a different language with a different set of rules, you could end up with someone who can sign perfect ASL and writes with perfect English?

ya know I am sure so far you've noticed I am rather careful to do just that- put "most", "majority" in sentences etc so if I forgot once to add this word, do you have to make out of it major case? It's like hunting sparrows with bazooka, you know..? unneccessary and pointless emphasis.

I am deaf functioning as HoH and I don't unserstand ASL grammar so maybe now I should make a major point out of it, just for balance, huh?

As for: " you could end up with someone who can sign perfect ASL and writes with perfect English?" - depends what you mean.
Signing in hearing English, or prefect ASL like "me bathroom" plus perfect hearing English?
because as far as signing in hearing English goes, Sweetmind thinks it's not neccessary.
I might agree.

Fuzzy

Audiofuzzy · 05-08-2006, 03:05 AM

Quote:

The Deaf Culture has MANY very valid points on why cochlear implants are a bad idea

I'm all ears - pun intended..

what are those points?

Fuzzy

btw- did you checked Google as I suggested about CI efficacy?

gnulinuxman · 05-08-2006, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2

I don't see CIs as a cure either and no one from my audiologist, surgeon or the literature from Cochlear has ever told me it was a cure. In fact the people who seem to bang on the most about "cure" are the radical deaf culturalists themselves.

I've met many audiologists and doctors who have said the CI is the cure for deafness and that it makes deaf babies normal. My fiancee's parents say that too, and they want her to get one, but they can't make her only because the law won't let her parents decide because she is not a minor.

Audiofuzzy · 05-08-2006, 03:41 AM

Quote:

I've met many audiologists and doctors who have said the CI is the cure for deafness and that it makes deaf babies normal

How many exactly?
I am a migraneur for over 20 years, and do you know how many neurologists I saw for this? maybe 5 or 6 over the 20 y, period.
Just how many specialist could you see, unless your work enables you to see many drs and audiologists indeed..
somehow I doubt it was that many, and the generalisation itself "I've met many...." tells me it is a stretch.

Fuzzy

05-07-2006, 09:31 PM	#222 (permalink)
Fragmenter Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 823	My wife brought up a great point. She said the Deaf people often gives a bad impression on the hearing people... when these people gives birth to a deaf child, they automatically remember the experience. They then want to raise their deaf child 100% in a hearing world because they weren't impressed with what happened in the past. I don't blame them. I've observed (and chided away in embarassment) situations where the Deaf people put a bad taste in the hearing people too many times. __________________ Please don't feed the Trolls. They are for your viewing entertainment only. Thank you.

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05-07-2006, 04:14 PM	#212 (permalink)
Sweetmind Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 788	vp, as far as your last post is concerned...Im sure you see where I stand on those CI issues...I will leave it at that. I have seen many CI failures...including members in this very forum...they were attacked for letting it be known that their CI is failure and they regret being implanted in the first place. Check out this URL Decline of sign language You can find the person who is a former CIer and no one respects him...for example. Many CI failure ppl try to admit their experiences..but ppl with Audist attitude attacked him for swearing while describing his story...Just read this and maybe you can understand a little bit more why my opinion still stands. I want the Deaf children to get Literacy before forcing th em to hear...this cannot be expected..that is WRONG...there is no 2 ways about it. Ive seen Deaf children with out CIs express more than CI children...whats wrong with that picture?? Thank you!! Sweetmind

05-07-2006, 05:43 PM	#218 (permalink)
Audiofuzzy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,384	I wanted to point out that I don't think it is neccessary for the deaf person to speak, but it is very valuable for them to know hearing English, the one that is used widely all over the world because knowing ASL grammar will come naturally with signing anyway. But since hearing pple does not understand ASL grammar it unfortunately falls on the deaf person to learn this hearing written English. Most hearing pple does not need to know ASL grammar because they don't have any deaf in their families not they have any contact at all with any deaf pple. (I don't have any at all. I happen to see deaf pple at the mall maybe once or twice in a year.) But the benefits of knowing both English-es are vast, starting from easy communication both ways to fully understanding anything that is written - instructions, magazines, books.. Fuzzy

05-07-2006, 10:24 PM	#227 (permalink)
Sweetmind Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 788	Democrat and Chronicle Saturday, February 15,2003 quote: NTID's Wetzel is first deaf female referee in NCAA Div. I basketball by Scott Pitoniak (reporter) THE SILVER WHISTLE BEARING the Women's National Basketball Association logo dangles from her rear-view mirror. A gift from a WNBA referee, it serves as a compass for Marsha Wetzel's dreams. "As I drive along, my goal is always right there in front of me," says Wetzel, the first deaf referee in Division. I women's college basketball history. "The WNBA is where I would like to be someday." Given what she has overcome and achieved so far, it would be folly to bet against her. It matters not that Wetzel can't hear the whistle she blows or the scoreboard buzzer. Calling upon her"radar eyes" and a keen knowledge of the game forged during the four years as a point guard for preimarily deaf Gallaudet University, Wetzel officates with a sense of auhtority that has drawn rave reviews from her supervisors in the Atlantic 10 Conference and the Patriot League. "She is quite a woman," Marie Koch, the A-10's coordinator of officals, told USA today. "She earned her way onto the A=10 second-tier staff simply because of her refereeing ability. She worked hard at out camp. She demonstrated extreme court awareness, a good working knowledge of the game. She's one of the most receptive officials I've worked with. She's sponge. She can't learn enough." An instructor at RIT's National Technical Institute for the Deaf, Wetzel developed a love for hoops while growing up in the Hartford, Conn, suburb of Newington in the late 1960's, early 70s. Her father played basketball in the Deaflympics, and Wetzel follwed in his sneaker steps, participating twice in the Olympic-style competition. She started four years at Gallaudet, and coached high school girls basketball at the Model Secondary School for the Deaf in Washington,D.C., after graduating in 1986. Although she guided her team to the championship game that winter, Wetzel didn't develop a passion for coaching. But she still yearned to be involved in the game, and officiating gave her the opportunity to remain on the court, in the middle of the action. Wetzel's 11 years odyssey from refereeing youth leagues to major college basketball has been filled with numberous obstacles. It has not been easy traversing the trail blazed by Guy Kirk, a deaf referee who has been working men's games in the Southern Conference for 17 years. Perhaps her biggest challenge is the language barrier. For the 40 years old to communicate with her colleagues, coaches and players before, during and after games, Wetzel must provide interpreters, who use American Sign Language. It's an expensive proposition because interpreters can cost up to 45 per hour. Many school no longer pick up the expense, meaning that Wetzel incurs financial hardships her peer don't face. "When I don't have an interpreter, I feel like a second-class citizen," she says. "I can communicate fine without one for much of the game, but there are times when I need to be able to discuss things with my partners or with a coach or a player. I've tried to read lips, but everybody has different lip movements so it's difficult." As frustrating as that hurdle is, Wetzel isn't about to allow it to stop her from pursuing her dream. She's built a network of interpreters and is setting up a fund to help defray the expenses for her and the roughly 32 other deaf basketball officials currently working either high school or college games. (You can contribute by e-mailing Wetzel at SilentWhistle15@aol.com). "I would like to see us get to a point where deaf officials don't face the struggles I and others have faced, as far as interpreters are concerned," says Wetzel, who teachers a class in officiating at Rochester Institute of Technology to students who are deaf. "We want to remove barriers so that we are on an equal footing with hearing refs." Despite the obstacles, Wetzel loves what she does. "You are out there in the flow of the game with all these great athletes," she says. "My reward is working a good game and being anonymous." Because hand signals are such a huge part of the game, fans, players and coaches often are unaware that Wetzel can't hear. She blends into the flow. "You don't notice that she's deaf. Bucknell coach Kathy Fedorjaka told Sports Illustrated, "until you start yelling at her and realized it's not going to do a thing." Wetzel jokes that her deafness comes in handy when one of her calls draws the ire of a coach or player. "I can just turn away." she says, laughing. Although she can't hear the boos and catcalls, she's very good at reading facial expressions and body language. "Believe me I know when somebody is upset with me," she says. "There was one game when a coach came up to me at half-time and through my interpreter really let me have it. I let her have her say. Sometimes you have to do that in order to diffuse a situation. It's part of being an official." Wetzel says her fellow officals have been very good at protecting her back. "If a player or coach says something totally inappropriate, she can expect to get (a technical foul)," Wetzel says. "I appreciate the support." Wetzel, who also works some Section V girls games and local Division III contests, aspires for a busier Division I schedule. The next logical step for her would be to work conference playoff games, then take a shot at the NCAA women's tournment and the Final Four. Her long-term goal remains the WNBA. Wetzel's reminded of that destination each time she slides into the driver's seat of her car and sees that whistle, dangling like a carrot from her rear-view mirror. ************** Who is the person success with ASL ? That s a real evidence ! Thanks! Sweetmind