Malfoyish

Debatable.


How are you not racist towards others who firmly maintain their own perspectives on issues pertaining to CI's and/or any other assistive devices that they feel may benefit them? Additionally how are you not harboring animosity towards parents, friends, doctors and any other supporters of deaf/HoH children and adults that actually support these ideas?

Your idea of freedom differs from others'. You ever think of that? Of course not. You've got it covered, eh?

Deafness

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deafdyke

Cloggy that's excellent!!!!! You really are doing well by your daughter. Just a word of advice.....continue that schooling arrangment until your daughter is old enough to help decide which schooling sitution she likes best. I was pushed towards the mainstream....it was always "mainstream, mainstream mainstream!"

Yes, but why should the parents be the ones to decide which tools the child should use? Many of us here grew up without sign.....and we're glad we can function in the hearing world....we're just wondering why speaking means totally rejecting Sign and Deaf culture in general.
Yes, there are some folks who've had good lives without sign, but a lot of them are Super dhh types (folks who would be considered high powered even among hearing folks) Others may be in denial and have really bought into the pro auditory-verbal philosophy that mainstreaming and the hearing world are Utopias. I mean, are you aware that even many high acheiving oral folks still have significent social issues, comparable to those seen with Asperger's Syndrome?

Sweetmind

Thats very positive outlook about deaf people in thier Deaf community that I am very support their Deaf languages and Deaf people s rights to freedom. So why are you complain about this?? It doesnt make sense.

I am Deaf and proud of it. I am not ashamed of showing my hands to communicate with anybody in this diversity world.. People out there need to be educate about d/Deaf people s true identity and our Deaf languages that is very important to all of our d/Deaf children s rights.

Why bother to hide our deafness since they have a very negative view on deafness all along? I am not gonna to destroy myself because I BORN DEAF. Scoffs!

Many thanks!
Sweetmind

Malfoyish

In a lot of respects, neither do you.

Gemtun

Erm..who is telling you to destroy yourself? I dont see anyone telling you that you cant use ASL or whatnot. I dont see anyone telling you your choices.

You keep saying Languages in plural so you have to admit that there are many different languages within Deaf/d Community so why are you attacking others if they prefer to use SEE or PSE or whatnot??? That just doesnt make any sense to me. *shaking my head*

Malfoyish

Oh, my god. I've been destroyed. *wails* How amusing it is, when we as the choice-maker, feel we benefit from it...and others are insisting that we're destroyed and no longer "free." Perhaps they try too hard to do the thinking FOR us.

Good luck trying to make much sense out of some of this garb. LOL. I've been trying for several weeks, now.

Cloggy

Swwwwwweeeeetmind. Imagine that a parent that has not decided between CI or no-CI will read your answer. I think your advocacy for d/Deaf children just went out the window. Fortunately, there are others on this messageboard that will make the parent think a bit longer.

Sweetmind

People with audist attitude do not get it yet.. I am waiting until time comes that will hit your face someday. Thats how I was being destroy for not who I am for many years after all I was forced to be a hearing child. That s totally wrong from audist attitude people who tried to destroy everythng that we have in our Deaf community/ Deaf schools/ ASL/ and many things that take away from d/Deaf children's best interest before think twice. In late age, I found my true identity that is very important for me that shows d/Deaf people are not that stupid and can do anything except hear..

TWO way street has never exist in this hearing world. So be it! Many people ignored our rights to freedom in ADA and many other things that we are not getting nowhere.

I am seeing things get worse and worse that has not solved the problem. So what the heck going on in ths society. For God s sake!!!!

JEEEZZZZZ

Malfoyish

Perhaps it's attitudes like yours that contribute to the worsening of outlooks in today's society. Instead of blaming other folks who are able to see a bigger picture, why don't you take a good hard look at yourself and your own theories?

Cheri

This thread is about Cochlear implants, not about any languages. Shall we get back on topic?

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Passivist

The thing about culture is the celebration of it, while still inter-acting with others, without that it just maintains the isolation. The only way to break down barriers is for mutual sectors making determined effort to bridge the gaps. There does seem a reluctance by the three primary hearing loss sectors to adopt a common approach that will enable deaf in the future to have real choice. At this moment in time does anyone realistically see any of them taking this common approach, which would, make things happen a lot quicker for us all ? There's MUCH made of 'Audist' Hearing attitudes, but the real 'bad attitude' is a relcutance to take a common approach, or accept other deaf and HI want wider choice..

I was sad being told by a cultural deaf activist,when I suggested this, "We don't need you.. we have our 'own' ways of doing things", so that leaves the non-dependent signer, those with severe hearing loss or acquired deafness or use oral means well out of it doesn't it ? Can we then blame the other sectors saying to the cultural deaf, well, then who needs YOU ? Why should we support you ? You've made your point you don't need us. If you are not for us, then the opposite must be true, so we campaign against your access if it denies ours ? All these things contribute to the 'Deaf' feeling they are martyrs, 'Us against everyone else', this view is not one many hold these days, rather they see it is intransigence, and an unwillingness to really expand the deaf options outside a very small and controlled area, I think youth will put an end to this, I hope so, they deserve a more outward-looking leadership than they have at present. Too many want to be 'One-eyed Kings leading a blind nation', a number use fear, which I find completely unacceptable. It's like some petty power struggle... who needs that ?

Cloggy

For toddlers and very small children, it will ALLWAYS be the parents that decide. No matter what the decision. Deciding to have your child decide when it's older is also a decision. The toddler/child cannot decide.

Cloggy

The topic was left a long time ago and that's OK. It's about the communication, behaviour. I'm learning here.

Cloggy

Well said.
What I vision is our daughter being able to be a bridge between deaf and hearing people. I hope that she will keep an interest in sign. But I want her to make her own choices. If she doesn't want to sign - fine. If Deaf culture doesn't want this beautiful person - their loss.

rockdrummer

This is interesting to me. I think the difference between yours and my perspective is age. You are obviously older and perhaps you are speaking of a large middle or high school or even college. I would tend to agree with you in that regard. My child is young and still in grade school which is much smaller. I don't agree that its not possible for the two or three teachers to learn sign. You have to remember that my child (and others) are at a time in their lives where they are still developing and not all of them understand what is going on around them especially in a fast paced mainstream class. There are times where even the terp has a hard time keeping up and probably skips over stuff. If the teacher was signing, nobody would miss anything. The hearing kids or the deaf kids. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

I concur but I think there is another choice you have missed. How about we look at the situation and if we don't agree with it, we find out what needs to be done to change it and act accordingly. I am a homeowner and when I look at my tax bill, the majority of it goes to the school system. I don't have a problem with that. But since I am helping to fund the system I believe I (and others) have a say in certian matters. Especially when they affect my childs education. After all, that is what he is in school for. The biggist hurdle I see is numbers. The majority is hearing so getting the system to budge will be difficult but not impossible.

I agree with you. Provide a terp if that is the only option.

Again, I am in agreement here. My child is in with mainstream kids for some of the day, and I think that is a good thing. I just think putting a deaf kid with hearies, without a terp and without the hearies knowing how to sign, communication will be difficult but not impossible. I am in no way suggesting that they be seperated. Thank you ismi for sharing this.

Malfoyish

No one. I also find it unacceptable. Very good post, Passivist. Thank you for pointing this out.

We'd all do so much better by adopting acceptance of OTHER ideas and viewpoints - it is perfectly okay to maintain your own opinion, but there is a limit to it - part of the trick is to also acknowledge that our own perspectives on any given topic doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct one or the wrong one for that matter. It's personal choice that is often omitted from being considered when such issues are brought up.

From what I can see, there's really no "established" culture, is there? As in, OFFICIALLY established - where there's any laws or guidelines to be followed.

I think you did well in mentioning those one-eyed Kings you speak of. These are the people who are intent on setting a set of rules for a specific group to follow. By doing this, he or she only needs one or two people who follow and concur in their theories...then THEY only need one or two in order to keep the belief firm. So the circle begins to grow. Before ya know it, there's a dividing line between those who have been led to believe things that may only be right for themselves and damned if there's anyone who dares disagree with the ideas proposed by that exclusive circle. In the end, you have two or more opposing sides. Next, people begin to look at what's different instead of what's the same...and the insults and finger pointing and aggravation begins to flow. It's ridiculous.

Choices are choices. What both sides need to agree on is that very concept.

Liza

Excellent post, Malfy. I agree with what you have written here. I've always maintained this viewpoint - making room for disagreements, and just learning to live with it. I agree that we do need some kind of structure - I think it comes from the within.. we have our ethics as some kind of structure or guidelines.. and of course, I appreciate the one eyed king analogy.. LOL very true. Let's say we also have our one eyed queens, too!

I think too many people take "No, I disagree" wayyyy too personal... hey, nothing wrong with laughing about it together afterwards!

It also makes a friendship very strong and unique, too... We all become better persons through disagreements and agreements... or it would be very boring!!

flowers

I took sign 1 and 2 in college, and enjoyed learning a new langue. I have never met anyone who had CI until I moved to VA, and met a family who has two children with them. Oh, and both parents can hear. Wow, I cannot understand why they would do this to these children. I very much disagree with drilling into a child's head to just to have them hear. I think the Deaf community is an amazing experience.

Passivist

It is with considerable sadness to read some views, not just from the deaf culture area but those who respond to the frustration by attacking, I think all sectors need to take stock and see what is happening, it all fuels the fire, keeps it going. Even at the very height of some very personal and nasty exchanges, we still read, of the skill, the dynamism, the energy and intelligence, (And yes the fear of isolation too), it shows that the hearing loss sector is filled with considerably able and very clever people, to reduce that to ya-boo rhetoric demeans us all, we are better than this.

Those who communicate differently, hear a bit more, or a lot less, use this mode, that mode, aids/CI's to get along, went to this school, or that school, are just the sum of the whole, , in many respects we share so much in common, a lot more than we don't. If we are to bump along with everyone then we have to work at it, life isn't just an access/rights campaign, it's for living too. While we fight each other, we will be the only casualities.

I'm no saint, I've made mistakes too, I'm beginning to see where. It would be a damn shame to look back when we're all older and think, if only....if only we had just stopped arguing, and communicated to each other this wouldn't drag on. Make no mistake the real and debilitating debates are NOT between mainstream access/medical professions/or the audisms, but between us. We each have a relatively orderly access strategy toward mainstream, but stalk each other, waiting for the first one to blink, it's no way to equality or respect. This is about us, not 'Gunfight at the OK Corral 2'.

deafdyke

Passcifst, you really have to undy that Deaf culture in US is DIFFERENT then in the UK.It's a lot more accepting! You're not automaticly classified as "oral" just b/c you have some oral skills. (I know in the UK you are......the Deafer then thou folks have won over there, which just means that over there it's more black and white) Sure, we argue and debate......but it just goes to show that just like other social movements there's a wide range of thinking and philosophy on this. Just like with feminism.....there's the girl power type, then there's the bra burner etc etc......it's just that there are many different flavors of being deaf.

ismi

Certainly, I agree with you here. I am talking from the perspective of a college student (and thinking more of middle school and up).

The problem is, once you get past elementary, insisting that the teacher be able to sign (and I have heard some people insist on that, though not necessarily you) is going to limit a deaf student's opportunities, for the same reason that a student in a small town doesn't have the same educational opportunities as a student from the city.

Yes - I would never advocate putting a student in without a terp. That way lies madness ;-) I was commenting more on sweetmind's statement that depending on a terp "loses freedom", and so is a bad thing. Sort of trying to balance her more extreme statements. While it's true that depending on a terp does cause you to lose some autonomy, I think there is a tradeoff to be made, and refusing to use terps when it's appropriate leads to losses for both deaf and hearing students. I've never been an idealist - I go with what's practical.

I think you and I are largely in agreement on this topic, just wanted to clarify.

netrox

oh my god, sweetmind is still on it?!?!

Sweetmind, my dear sweetmind... please.... just please... stop, ok?

Cloggy

Hi Netrox... Name rings a bell, nice to see you here.

Passivist

It's a pity this 'wider range of thinking' hasn't morphed into wider acceptance, and the 'flavours' don't really gel.... There's no 'winners' here, sadly a lot of losers. Culture cannot flourish in Isolation it becomes secular. Acceptance cannot happen until we respect each other, integration and equality isn't real if you only do it on a part-time basis, and from a stance of no quarter given. The size of the US (Physical), and the wider dispresal of deaf there, doesn't really allow the 'conflict' of ideaologies and access requirements to happen as they do in the UK, I agree. We recently saw the equivelant of $3.2m given for the sign user, and it was earmarked for them only, leaving, 130,000 with hearing loss and deafness in the same area, unable to benefit. This would have paid for a lot of CI's people here cannot afford ! This sort of thing too, drives division, sign users are more 'deserving' than a person losing hearing and going deaf ? The whole approach to deaf support is wrong here, and I suspect elsewhere. These 'debates' are highlighting the direction of support driven by the cultural advocate, who clearly has no interest in any other deaf person. The others will get angry, and who will blame them ? As I write the people adminstering the funding are arguing over who 'Owns' it.... We've two 'rival' systems of the British (BSL), sign language courses being mooted, it's like the USA having different ways of teaching ASL, having no norm at all, use differing signs, and multiple examination and accreditation standards in it.. One set of deaf people would approve an interpreter in one system but refuse to use another, all helps does it ?

Boult

LMAO check your pm

EDIT: ahem, can't send you a pm.. your loss..

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Oceanbreeze

Some people are their own worst enemy, though. Sweetmind is one of them. She doesn't see that she is contributing to the discrimination she screams about here. People with exclusive atitudes shoot themselves in the foot every time, and she is doing it well. If you want people to take you seriously, you have to show them what you are capable of. Oftentimes, this means fitting in. Sweetmind refuses to assimilate into the hearing world. As long as she does this, she's going limit herself and her opportunites.

She's letting people crap on her, and I don't feel sorry for her.

Sweetmind

OCEANBREEZE and the rest of other audist attitude followers who have so much negative and bittered about me being so different and having a very different philosophy.. Guess what You have a real problem on your own while I dont have a problem with you guys.. Grow up KIDS!

For God s sake! I am sorry you have to face the truth after all you all have been denying too much.. I am not gonna to worry about it.. The truth will come out..

netrox

Sweetmind, I was hoping that you'd become a better person and not sound so bitter or so critical of hearing people or not so zealously anti-CI... nope, you're still the same Sweetmind as I've known you 7 years ago!!!

I guess some people don't change.

Sweetmind

It doesnt mean that I am Against CIer people.. NICE TRY , Netrox. I have my rights for having my strongly against CI on those d/Deaf children. You wont admit since Doctor is not doing the right thing lately. They are just making money out on d/Deaf chlldren and ripped off on the parents in many ways.

You know what CI radicals and CI professionals people are full of it in many ways. There are many negative side effects that many people dont know the whole story. I do know some of it.


CI is not making you a hearing person 100 percent.. CI is not making you a real functionally hearing. HA and CI are the same behavior patterns as is.

Too much bias and ONE _ SIDED is very wrong.

TOO pushing by audiologist and CI doctors. Whats the purpose for them doing that to those parents who are very innocent and ignorant people.. Sighs! Very selfish and self centered as I can see.

DENIAL over and over...

AND I am not gonna to sniff around ORALISM issue alone that has been going on and on. It was not successful in many ways.. It s still not having TWO WAYS of street. So there!

YOu need to read it more than 100 times that I have never said it. You need to look up the mirror and says in your own words.. That means you are the one who hated me. It s your issue not mine.. I dont give a damn anymore.

I just let people decide for themselves.. I m not here to have everybody to like me or dislike me.. Thats their issues not mine.

Guess what, I love me , myself , and the whole of me being deaf and using my hands to communicate with anybody in ASL that works so well for both sides than just having an oral speaking alone or struggled to memorize those words.. For what?? i m not doing for anyone s favor because thats who I am.. Guess what, I can speak and am D E A F. I am proud of it that I can do both ASL with or without orally speaking.. Thats equal with Signed English with or without orally speaking.. Thats a choice for me to do. No one can force me to speak it alone or hear it alone. I do not need o depend on any devices that must to hear for hearing people s sake as they said so.. what the hell do they think of us deaf people? jeeeezzz !! Thats their prejudice as always.

So long! IMMATURE KIDS I ever know.. Go ahead kiss their arses that you want to be follow like a dog. Have fun. Someday you will realize it when time comes

I do not need this guy named Cloggy [hearnig with a very negatve thinking of deaf itself] as well as he loves to control and manipulate people s mind that I have already discovered the truth a long time ago. Thats why he want to destroy me because I am DEAF and saw the evidence with all my eyes for a long time. It s a proven that helps me to know what kind of people they are.. I rather to go with people with a very great attitude and have a good deaf heart and good heart that is their openmind and willing to learn and mingle with us all along. I respect them all the way.

bye bye kids

Sweetmind

OTHER THING IS I strongly believe that literacy is more important for d/Deaf people than speechreading is. Thats all to it. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DEAF EARS because it s hard to learn in the classroom with all that noise pollution with those devices.. I find this is as is.