Reba

Personally, I never debate anyone with the intention of changing their views. Debate can't change a heart. Only God's Word and the Holy Spirit can do that. I leave that up to them.

However, I do correct the incorrect statements made about God, the Bible, and Christians. It's one thing to be slammed for the truth, and quite another to be falsely accused.

Deafness

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DeafCaroline

What inaccuracies did i say?

Reba

See post #26.

Also, I wasn't referring to you only.

DeafCaroline

I still don't see any inaccuracies. But eh, Christians are not very good at being open-minded to hearing things like the word Hell came from a mistranslation for the Greek word "grave" and this mistranslation happened during the Medieval Ages when they were descending into well, the Dark Ages. The bible was originally composed of several books written in different languages that were eventually translated and compiled together. there is such thing as cultural influences and mistranslations and misperceptions, all of which got incorporated into religious texts.

but whatever, if you prefer to believe in such things, that's fine. Just because you don't think the bible is inaccurate, doesn't mean it isn't.

derek7names

So people can talk about the size of their penis and what positions they like when they have sex on alldeaf but can't have religious debates? That is ridiculous.

rolling7

You ask for a break and I'm trying to give you one.
Who has prove the Great Flood to not be true?
Who has prove the Great Plagues of Egypt to not be true?
Better yet, name an event you think has been proving false.

You and I only deal in facts, so give me facts to back up your posts.

DeafCaroline

rolling7 - I was on a debate team. Rule 101 - do not make statements you cannot prove.

I didn't say the great flood was untrue nor the plagues of Egypt - scientists and archaeologists have already tackled those stories to find out if they were true and indeed, historically, they were true. Another guy have proven that the lost tribes of Israel did exist and he tracked them down to their current day locations, one of the tribes is the Jews of Jerba in Tunisia, famous for their silversmiths. Another is in Ethiopia.

The other thing that bugs me about the preaching of the Bible is the cop out...Prove to me God exists. Priest replies, you just need to have faith. That's all the proof you need.

I did study the history of the bible and I will not argue historical events for naturally, people record them but the more fantastical stories? Ummm...c'mon. I do not doubt that we all have a need to believe in something greater than us and I do not doubt that indeed there is a superior force out there that is creating all this life. No doubt at all.

But I do not like attempted control through use of the bible and to tell people they must do this or that or they are not getting into heaven for being bad little kids. I do understand the bible was also a set of laws for civillized behaviour in society so we can get along instead of all out bloody warfare.

Most Christians I've met are not very Christ-like. They don't pay tithes, support the poor, be kind to their neighbours nor take good care of domesticated animals, which biblically, are said to have souls.

They destroy this wonderful planet God gave them, I don't see that as very respectful to their God. He gave them life, they are killing it.

I do support the message of Jesus which is to be good, kind, neighbourly, generous, understanding, unconditional love even towards the Judahs. He preaches forgiveness and acceptance. One hundred percent. But that doesn't make me believe he's god, just a very brilliant philosopher who was way ahead of his time and deeply spiritual. He was a Jew, naturally his upbringing in the Old Testament is going to factor into his spiritual beliefs.

I'd rather people BE and ACT like Christians than quote from the Bible to tell others "this is wrong cause GOD says so." How about Christians practice what they preach and just go out there and be like Christ instead of casting the finger of judgement upon everyone. Can anyone visualize Jesus spewing profanities at gays or bombing an abortion shelter or telling abused wives to be quiet and not complain for divorce is wrong? Yet the bible is used to justify those things. That's sick. It really is.

As far as i am concerned, people have no business calling themselves Christians if they are not behaving as Christ would have wanted them to. Just believing God exists is not enough.

Banjo

Finally, somebody here at AllDeaf is making sense.

rolling7

DC, I know you don't have a problem with the Black Plague, it happen. So I'm trying to understand how you can call the Great Plague of Egypt a "fable" (your word)

I also know you are aware of non-bibical cities that tragedly and catastrophely suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth. So, I'm trying to get my head around you callingSodom and Gomorrah a "fable". This is about the citiesand not about Lot's wife nor homosexually.

My main concern is why even anyone is allow to use "fable" at all, especially a scholar. The story of "Jack and the Beanstalk" is commonly called a fable and rightly so because it is child's entertainment. However, the Bible was written and meant to be a historical record. So for you to refer to any part of it, in any context, requires you to back your opinion. Otherwise you are doing yourself a disgrace as a scholar.

DeafCaroline

um....one example, the bread and the fish, another, walking on water, yet another, talking serpent and the tree of life. Ever heard of the game "telephone"? the story get distorted as it gets passed from one person to the other. Things become embellished and exaggerated and some even become the stuff of legends.

But that's besides the point. Who gives a flying **** if god parted the red sea (yes, that's been proven as true but not exactly as was described in the bible)? who can prove it was god who created those historical events?

the important question here is are you living your life as Christ? Jesus didn't show up to tell people to just believe in the book and make religious artefacts and spend millions on churches and sit their ass down on a pew for a couple of hours a week and listen to reliigious radio and music, he's telling them to go out there and do good. otherwise what's the bloody point of Christianity in the first place?

Secretblend

Just to be up front, I do believe in the Bible. However, I'm not here to argue about Bible cause one either believes in the Bible or they don't. It's not my job to make someone believe.

But one thing caught my eye and I'm curious of the statement you made. That is new information to me and wanted to ask where does the Bible state that?

shel90

I know that not all Christians are not like those people mentioned. It is those people who demand things like that who I question...

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shel90

Reba, I respect you a lot but I just dont believe the concept of God because it was written by men. I love men but historically, it was men who have always had control over women so call me a feminist or whatever, the idea of that just turns me off.

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shel90

That's fine BUT you cant force others to believe the same hence the whole concept of blocking gay marriage.

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shel90

Were you there at the Great Flood? WOW!!!!

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shel90

amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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shel90

I know..wow! I learned a lot from that one post. I knew something didnt sit right with me about this whole thing about this whole "God" thing but didnt know what. Well, that post just put it in clear writing.

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DeafCaroline

In Genesis, the original Hebrew text for animals or "living beasts" was "living souls". You'd be amazed at how much got lost in translation when the original texts were translated during Middle Ages. There are often references to God being the spirit of "all flesh" meaning all living creatures, man and animal alike.

Wait a minute, why am I telling you this? You're a Christian, you should study the bible and find this out for yourself.

shel90

My husband is like you...He has read and learned that Bible. He has basically told me the same thing as you just said. He loves the Bible but hates the people who twist it to fit their agendas especially those who want to control others.

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Secretblend

Just cause I'm a Christian doesn't mean I know everything. Thanks for pointing me to that and I'll study that for myself. For me, there is always something new to learn.

One thing I've noticed is sometimes non believers know more about Bible than some "Christians"

shel90

I have NOTHING against Christians...just those who use it to put down others or try to control others. I do not like that at all. My brother's girlfriend is a strong Christian and I respect that. I will respect your beliefs (generally speaking) if one respects mine.

If someone tries to tell me that I am bad because I didnt do this or that according to the Bible, then that is just a big turn off.

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Secretblend

The Bible clearly teaches us not to judge others. I do my best not to judge others. After all I am only human and I've done wrong things. Since I've done wrong, who am I to judge others?

Banjo

Well, I can easily say that I was raised on Christian principles. After all, I did get married in an Anglican church. However, like some people here are saying, it is not our duty to judge people. We are all sinners, therefore, we cannot cast the first stone. So why should we be allowed to judge people when we are already imperfect to start with?

DeafCaroline

Not saying you know everything, telling you to go study the Bible

Make sure you look up historical references and notes on translation.

Steinhauer

This is something I don't personally understand. "Marriage" has always been a traditional religious ceremony. I am sure there will be those who will disagree with that notion ... but they will be wrong.

So, I am left wondering why the Federal Government is sticking their noses in the realm of religion. Why are State Governments doing this?

Here is an interesting blog I have been reading concerning how there are several Homosexual Groups opposing same sex marriage, basically because, they feel, that the whole movement supporting same sex marriage is actually a movement designed to bash Christians and not to promote Gay Rights.

Gays Against Gay Marriage

DeafCaroline

A disgraced scholar if I don't prove to you why I have my beliefs?

This is the second time you've demanded I answer to you or I'm a failed academic. Just so you know, I don't have to prove anything to you nor do I owe you any explanations.

Third time, I'm not responding.

All stories, all fables have roots in truth. The stories written in the bible used to be passed down from mouth to mouth. People didn't have printers 2000 years ago, they learned through memory. They learn through storytelling. Yes, there is a chronicle of historical events in the bible but they've been manipulated in order to support this theory of God. If there was a drought that drained the water level allowing people to pass, the bible will say god parted the waters. that's when accuracy becomes distorted and manipulated to promote an ideology. That's when history becomes a story, a fable.

Like i said before, we could argue till we're in the old age home and we'll never see eye to eye. So, let's leave it.

You believe what you want.

derek7names

Woot woot! Can I get an Amen?!

StSapphire

I'd like to make a couple of points.

1) Several religious people have made numerous religious statements in this thread, and it hasn't been locked yet. This isn't to say that there's absolutely not a pro-secularism bias on behalf of the moderation team, there very well could be, but it hasn't been exhibited in this thread, at least.

2) I saw at least one of two posts from Rolling (and possibly others, I was somewhat skimming) asking for "proof that such and such that was in the bible didn't happen". Sorry, but that's not how it works. When you make a claim, the onus of proof is on the person who asserts that it is true, not upon the critic to disprove it.

In other words - if you claim everything that is described in the Bible accurately and actually happened (which many modern religions don't even do any more - a great many describe away many of the numerous inaccuracies and obviously untrue stories as metaphors and allegories), then it is up to you to prove that they did happen. If I claim that I'm secretly Harry Potter and can swing around a twig and make things float, it's not up to you to prove that I'm wrong (breaking the second law of thermodynamics, for a start), it's up to me to prove to you (somehow) that I'm right.

Since the topic is about things that happened in the past, you can either use historological techniques for determining whether any given account is accurate or not, and when the accounts come from a single, written source (like the Bible) it can often become difficult to sufficiently "prove" any specific detail, and you may have to settle with "this explanation fits better than any other given explanation", which is often acceptable with scientific endeavors, but is much harder with human-recorded historical events, since the null hypothesis for any given event could very easily be "something somewhat similar to this happened, but then whoever recorded it embellished details so as to make the current account highly inaccurate". (Actually, DeafCaroline, you said that you have a background as a historian, what is the actual null hypothesis for any given historically recorded event?)

3) With regards to marriage being a religious ceremony, this is actually one argument I would be amenable to, with a given condition - if religious people are willing to work to not only oppose the governmental redefinition of marriage, but are equally willing to work to repeal the usage of any governmental contract being given the title of "marriage", then I would equally support that (ie simply changing all legal benefit-sharing contracts that are currently called "marriages" to "domestic partnerships", and literally making "marriage" a term that has as much legal weight as "confirmed" or "bar mitzvah'd").

The issue is that, as it is currently used, "marriage" is not being used in a religious context. Nobody is going around forcing religious leaders to perform gay marriages, either. The laws which are actively affirming support for gay marriage are altering the governmental definition of marriage, which makes sense, since the government isn't allowed to favor any one religion over another, and using a religious-based definition of "marriage" is a form of favoring an individual religion over others, especially when it confers non-religious benefits.

DeafCaroline

One does not have to be religious to get married. they can get a civil wedding. No religious text has any business interfering with that. It's like saying corporal punishment should not be banned in school because the bible says "spare the rod, spoil the child." Keep religion out of it. We have no business telling two adults they cannot love and be together just because we don't approve. There was a time once when blacks and whites couldn't marry because it was considered an abomination.

Marriage is an official declaration of love and commitment to one another for life. We have no business telling gay people that sex is fine, but love and commitment is wrong. It's none of our damn business and it's not our place.

The bible also says if a woman cheats on her husband and gets pregnant, she has to abort the baby or put burnt at stake. So, if we're going to wave the bible in the air and say "god says..." we would be seeing a significant number of female pregnant adulteresses being put to death by fire all around the world if they choose not to abort. Oh wait, that's not happening even though GOD says we're supposed to do that. What hypocrites we are and how defiant we are of God's word.

We can't just apply biblical laws to justify bigotry and prejudices. We can't disregard some laws and apply others according to what WE think it's right despite what God actually said and told us to do. That's bullshit.

And lastly, why is it only the bible that matters when it comes to the law? What about buddhism? the koran? the torah? America is made up of many cultures, many religions. So, if we're going to insist the law must be so according to the bible, then we might as well insist the law must be so according to all religous texts and that's impossible.

it's no one's business if two adult gay people want to swear an official declaration of their love for each other. stay out of it.

dogmom

THAT
Caroline!