ella

i know theres a lot of hate crimes committed on gay guys, and it seems like they have it harder. Do the girls get more verbal abuse or is just as bad. I'm just wondering.

Deafness

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EyesBlueDeaf

interesting.. but you are right.. It seems that gays have it harder than lesbians...

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Teresh

Physical violence against lesbians is a bit less common, but the reason for that is somewhat understandable. Traditionally, in religions, lesbianism has not been considered "wrong". I have a friend who is an Orthodox Jew who acknowledges that there's nothing in Scripture forbidding lesbianism, though a particular passage in Leviticus could be interpreted as forbidding male homosexuality.

Additionally, it's worth remembering that most of the people commiting hate crimes against gay people are male. As a result that, they come into it with whatever biases they have as a result of what's in their pants. A lot of straight men watch at porn. A lot of straight men also watch lesbian porn. I'd be inclined to believe that a lot of the straight men watching lesbian porn are homophobic. Not all, or even the majority, but still a significant number.

So, to a guy, it's less "wrong" and more "entertainment" for two women to be in a relationship, which may or may not be sexual, but if two men are in a relationship, that's just plain wrong and violates the natural order of things, blah blah blah. It's still homophobic either way and thinking lesbianism could be construed as entertainment is somewhat disturbing to me, personally, but as a result, my observation is that gay bashes on lesbians are less common.

That's my take on it, anyway, being a lesbian.

The*Empress

Umm, can I butt in, pls?

I think it is natural...

Because Male Lion can have 2 or 3 female Lions in the family... And the female lions are like lesbians, looking after each other cubs.

And I think just like male Rams they fight over for female Ram to start a family.
It seems like gay men are defeated over and over again and straight men wanna dominate the world, they would kill each other for power. For example Saddam and Bush. And I believe gay men finally give in and leave women alone.
So the straight stronger Ram like men get the girls and mate and have their last name pass on from generation to generation as if they are Kings.

SherryCherish

Well I have no against to anyone. But been gone to the gay bars many times. I notice GUYS are so @&*!# cute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beside, they re alike *sluttly* Lesbrain, they re so toughie and not care what people thinks. I admired to go there cuz they re so NICE and respects.

I went to dance stage, and didn't attention. I rubs something and i looked. HOLY SMOKLEY, a HOTTIE latin guy with no shirt but hulk chest. I rubbed his chest. And, I didn't take my hand off, and he was looked at me. I said Ooops sorry with red face! He chuckled and laughed at me. My friends saw me, and hitted me, and say damn u dare. LOL

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Mizzou

Gays can be beats just like as lesbians does. Gays can be throws just like as lesbians does. Gays can be crime just like as lesbains does. No one perfect. Many people are crazy and want to be foolish out of themselves. Gay/Lesbains are innoncets because they did not anything with the 'crazy' people.

hope this is easy to understanding *sigh*

Endymion

I think you're right, though I don't think it's all about entertainment.

Many heterosexual men have such an opposition towards male-male intimacy that many of us shun images that are symbolic of it. Sometimes we may not actively recognize it or be aware of it, but it's still there.

This leads me to suspect that, generally, we are more likely to be tolerant of non-heterosexual intimacy as long as it doesn't represent a violation of our own emotional demarcations. Unfortunately, the idea of male-male intimacy is a little more than what some people can handle.

A bright woman I used to date was a DV counselor, and I remember she cited some research that demonstrated men feel their emotions intensely, but are are not given the tools to manage their feelings. The "friendless american male" is not a rare occurrence, we hide ourselves in a macho facade (ever met a guy who wasn't proud of his scars?) and reinforce it with emotional isolation among peers. We heterosexual men do share our feelings with our partners, but that's not the same thing.

My theory is this: the emotional underdevelopment of males lends to insecurity when emotional boundaries are are potentially "threatened", which lends to an increase in homophobic response to male-male symbolism.

TweetyBird

i agree with u!!! u are right abt that.. no one perfect!!!

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lutsko67

Excuse me, but I have been a les all my life and like gay men, I have had also, physical as well as verbal threats made against me. 2 say that gay men r more likely 2 encounter hatred and fear, that would be a wrong impression of gay men. It depends on the area and state u live in. Some areas gay men r harrassed more because they may live in a heavy christian right wing society, alas, so r lez women in the same area. So, to me , gays and lezs r targets of hatred and threats alike!! Reguardless of ur sexual preference, No 1 should be treated w/ hatred or bias!!

The*Empress

Why most lesbians are ugly and most gay men are cute?

If someone mentioned the word, "lesbian", we assume someone like Ellen Degeneres and Rosie O'Donnell, boyish type, confuse, acting macho.

And if someone mentioned the word, "gay men", we envision them as girly, cute facial appearance and clean shaven.

Nancy

I agree. Remember Kufie75? When I saw his photo with Patty once, I thought he was really handsome! Even my PE Coach in elementary school (I had him for 6 years) was handsome back then, even though he was gay....if you can imagine a blond surfer guy but kind of well-built, that's what my coach was like in the 1970s. I even met a gay guy at work when I was only 19 or 20 years old (in 1990), and I thought he was a good looking man.

Nancy

Well, my PE Coach in business teaching us when we were kids wasn't acting girly....but I was told that he acted like it when he was away from the kids. I remember he dressed and spoke like a guy....it was years later when I found out it was well known that he's gay (teachers told a relative of mine about him - she worked with him too years ago). It's the same with actor Rock Hudson, and Robert Reed (father on Brady Bunch).
There are guys out there like these three who aren't "girly" totally.

deafdyke

Excuse me Miss P!!! I don't like girls b/c i'm unattractive to men. I get hit on by guys ALL the time! I simply like souls sexually who HAPPEN to be women. If they were MEN, then I'd like them JUST AS MUCH!

EyesBlueDeaf

Armed Teen at Mass. Gay Bar Injures Three
By RAY HENRY, Associated Press Writer
Thu Feb 2, 11:08 PM

NEW BEDFORD, Mass. - A young man dressed all in black went on a rampage at a gay bar with a hatchet and a gun Thursday, wounding three patrons in what police said appeared to be a hate crime.

One victim was in critical condition.

Police searched for 18-year-old Jacob D. Robida, who was wanted on charges of attempted murder, assault and civil-rights violations.

According to court papers, Robida's mother told police that he briefly stopped by the house less than an hour after the brawl and was bleeding from the head. In Robida's bedroom, officers found Nazi regalia and anti-Semitic writings on the wall.

"Obviously we have a man who's dangerous, who's not rational, and he has weapons," said prosecutor Paul Walsh Jr.

A bartender said it was around midnight when a teen wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and black pants walked into Puzzles Lounge, a gay nightspot in this historic seaport city of 94,000 people, about 50 miles from Boston.

He flashed an apparently fake ID and ordered a drink, then asked if the place was a gay bar and was told it was, said the bartender, who asked to be identified only by his first name, Phillip, because of fear for his safety.

The bartender said the teen finished his drink and walked back to where two men were playing pool. He shoved one of them to the ground, then pulled a hatchet from his sweatshirt and began swinging at the man's head, cutting him, Phillip said.

Other patrons tackled the man, sending the hatchet sliding across the floor, the bartender said. Then the attacker pulled a gun, shot a man, and then fired another bullet into the chest of a patron who was leaving the bathroom, the bartender said.

He then ran off into the night.

Police recovered the hatchet and found a knife outside. The knife was not apparently used in the attack.

According to court papers, a woman in the bar recognized Robida as a current or former student at New Bedford High School. School officials would not confirm whether he was enrolled there.

Robida graduated in 2001 from the city's Junior Police Academy, a "boot camp" that teaches discipline to 12- to 14-year-olds, many of whom are referred by juvenile courts or social services agencies, Acting Police Chief David Provencher said.

Police identified the injured men as Robert Perry, Alex Taylor and Luis Rosado. One has a gunshot wound to the chest, another a gunshot wound to the back and severe cuts to his face, and a third suffered multiple cuts, police said. They would not specify which man suffered which injuries.

All three victims remained hospitalized. Police said one was in critical condition, but would not say which man.

A family friend who answered the door at Robida's home said his mother had no comment.

The owner of the bar, Richard F. Macedo, said he planned to be open Thursday night because closing would amount to giving in to homophobia. He said the place and its customers have never been targeted before because of their sexual orientation.

"We've been here almost 15 years," Macedo said. "All it takes is one bad egg."

Some bar patrons, however, said there has been occasional low-level harrassment over the years.

About 150 people, including Mayor Scott Lang, attended a candlelight vigil outside the bar Thursday night.

"This was a crime against everyone in this city," Lang said.

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IslandGal

Oh man, that is terrible! I hope the police will find that man before he hurt or kill anyone else. Even though I am straight but it makes me feel disgusted and sad to see what these cruel people are doing to the gay people. I have a dear friend who is gay and sometimes I worry about his safety. I really do despise these people who act out the hate crimes.

EyesBlueDeaf

Teen Wanted in Mass. Gay Bar Attack Caught
By NOAH TRISTER, Associated Press Writer

GASSVILLE, Ark. - Two days after a violent rampage at a gay bar in Massachusetts, authorities said the teen suspect fled 1,500 miles to Arkansas where he fatally shot a police officer and a 33-year-old woman.

Jacob D. Robida, a high school dropout who friends said glorified Naziism, was shot twice in the head in a gun battle with police Saturday, officials said. He was critically injured.

After Thursday's hatchet-and-gun attack at Puzzles Lounge in New Bedford, Mass., which injured three people, police said the 18-year-old fled in a green Pontiac and picked up Jennifer Rena Bailey, at her Charleston, W. Va., home.

"Apparently she's had a prior relationship with this guy and had been corresponding with him," said West Virginia State Police Sgt. C.J. Ellyson.

They were driving through the northern Arkansas town of Gassville when Officer Jim Sell pulled them over for a traffic stop. The teen twice shot Sell, 56, said Massachusetts prosecutor Paul Walsh Jr.

Witness Maryann Hoyne said she saw the officer's squad car bumper to bumper with Robida's car, and heard three gunshots. Sell was on the ground and Robida got back into his car and drove off, she said.

Robida returned a moment later to retrieve his gun, which he had left at the side of the officer, said Hoyne, manager of the Brass Door Motel in Gassville.

About 25 miles away, Robida drove over spike strips set out by state troopers and drove with two punctured tires into downtown Norfork. Robida's car then careened into several parked vehicles to avoid a police barricade.

"When he wrecked he started firing at our officer and a state police officer, and the officers returned fire," said Baxter County Sheriff John Montgomery.

The teen shot the woman in the car with him before he was wounded in the shootout with police, Walsh said. State police wouldn't confirm Walsh's account and said ballistics tests would determine how the woman died.

Robida was taken to a Springfield, Mo., hospital, according to Arkansas State Police spokesman Bill Sadler.

One victim of the Massachusetts attack _ which police have called a hate crime _ said he was "elated" the teen had been apprehended.

"Right now I'd like him to be able to regain consciousness and answer some questions," said Bob Perry, who was released from a Boston hospital Friday. He had a black eye, a five-inch gash on his right cheek and a bullet hole in his back.

Another victim remained hospitalized, and officials would not disclose the location of the third. Police said Robida would be charged with attempted murder, assault and civil rights violations in the attack.

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EyesBlueDeaf

Man Held in Bar Attack Dies After Shootout

GASSVILLE, Ark. - A teenager suspected of a hatchet-and-gun attack in a Massachusetts gay bar and in the fatal shooting of two people died Sunday morning after he was critically wounded in a gun battle with Arkansas police, authorities said.

Jacob D. Robida, 18, died at 3:38 a.m. Sunday at Cox-South Hospital in Springfield, Mo., Arkansas State Police spokesman Bill Sadler said.

Robida, a high school dropout who friends said glorified Naziism, was shot twice in the head in a shootout with police Saturday after he fatally shot a Gassville police officer and a woman in his car, authorities said.

Two days earlier, he allegedly went on a violent rampage at the Puzzles Lounge in New Bedford, Mass., that left three men wounded, one critically. Police labeled the attack there a hate crime.

After Thursday's attack, police say Robida fled in a green Pontiac and picked up Jennifer Rena Bailey, at her Charleston, W. Va., home.

"Apparently she's had a prior relationship with this guy and had been corresponding with him," said West Virginia State Police Sgt. C.J. Ellyson.

They were driving through the northern Arkansas town of Gassville when Officer Jim Sell pulled them over for a traffic stop. The teen twice shot Sell, 56, said Massachusetts prosecutor Paul Walsh Jr.

Witness Maryann Hoyne said she saw the officer's squad car bumper to bumper with Robida's car, and heard three gunshots. Sell was on the ground and Robida got back into his car and drove off, she said.

Robida returned a moment later to retrieve his gun, which he had left at the side of the officer, said Hoyne, manager of the Brass Door Motel in Gassville.

About 25 miles away, Robida drove over spike strips set out by state troopers and drove with two punctured tires into downtown Norfork. Robida's car then smashed into several parked vehicles to avoid a police barricade.

"When he wrecked he started firing at our officer and a state police officer, and the officers returned fire," said Baxter County Sheriff John Montgomery.

The teen shot the woman in the car with him before he was wounded in the shootout with police, Walsh said. State police wouldn't confirm Walsh's account and said ballistics tests would determine how the woman died.

One victim of the Massachusetts attack _ which police have called a hate crime _ said he was "elated" the teen had been apprehended.

"Right now I'd like him to be able to regain consciousness and answer some questions," said Bob Perry, who was released from a Boston hospital Friday. He had a black eye, a five-inch gash on his right cheek and a bullet hole in his back.

Another victim remained hospitalized, and officials would not disclose the location of the third. Police said Robida would be charged with attempted murder, assault and civil rights violations in the attack.

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thewinterknight

From my expirence, Lesbians are generally more receptive because men at heart are pervert. While gay men are able to express themself more openly than straight men, this may lead to a case of jealously and hatred simply because they can't express their feelings. The sole exception to this is a Metrosexual, I happen to be one myself.

LuvsInk

I kinda agree with this but not because men are perverts but because their manhood feels less threatened by the idea of two women together since it is most men's fantasy. It just seems to be more accepted by men because most desire to see or participate in that. Also, not all lesbians are obvious or butch. I don't put myself in a butch or femme box. I dress and act as I see fit and what I do behind closed doors with my partner of choice just happens to be private. But I do have a 5' rainbow wind sock on my front porch so I'm not closeted.

Sary

I can't speak for what anyone else experiences, but I do know what my girlfriend and I experienced. In the first six months of our relationship, we were harrassed an average of once every ten days. (We did the math.) Most of that was in a four-block area between our apartment and our college campus. People would spit, throw things, shout obsceneties, and generally just make idiots of themselves. We had one jerk follow us around Wal-Mart, asking me if my "boyfriend" had a problem, and repeatedly shouting "Sir" at my girlfriend. We never had any actual physical violence towards us, thankfully, although we were frightened enough of it that we begged and borrowed to get a car. We almost never felt safe.

Things have calmed down a lot now, though. We live in a different neighborhood and we don't walk as much. Now we mostly get ignorant comments from teens at the mall who don't know any better. (That's nothing against teens, by the way. I practically still am one, or at least that's how I feel. I'm just saying these particular teens don't know any better!)

While I agree that gay men probably have it harder as far as physical violence is concerned, I don't want anyone to mistake being the object of some idiot straight guy's fantasy as being "accepted." I do NOT enjoy it when drunken idiots stagger up to my girlfriend and me and ask for explicit descriptions of what we do together! We don't do it for THEM, and our relationship is about a lot more than just THAT!

operatorally

First of all, I find it really interesting that it is always assumed by heterosexuals that all lesbians are ugly and all gay men are hot- this is nonsense and I take offense as a lesbian.
Secondly, one of the reasons that we hear more about gay bashings of men is that men are more visible in gay culture because they control that culture. Most gay villages are run by and for men because men have more money, so they in turn are more visible and more likely to get attacked by people looking for trouble.
Also, lots of us lesbians are also vulnerable to being raped by men trying to teach us a lesson, and this is an experienced documented over and over again. Lesbians are often more 'invisible' because the fact that we make less money than gay men makes us participate less in public culture. We do face a ton of discrimination, from being dismissed in jobs for not being feminine enough or flirtatious enough with men to being told that we're women so we can't do certain things. Also, because straight men frequently fantasize about feminine lesbians, they often treat us better on the surface.

In school, it also has to do with how girls mess with other girls. Boys in school are violent, but girls enact abuse on each other too, though often in more subtle ways. I did not enjoy being a lesbian in junior high school any more than my gay male counterparts, and when I received death threats and gay bashings it was clear that while some men might not be willing to attack me out of 'respect for a girl', others didnt care at all...

shel90

I have no experiences personally cuz I am heterosexual but I did some thinking about what everyone in this thread has discussed. All of you made very interesting and strong points. Well, in my opinion, yes I think gay men get less acceptance in the general society than lesbians.

It starts out in childhood..I mean think about it...

People accept little girls playing with cars, action heroes, playing sports and getting all dirty and stuff. The term "tomboy" is accepted as a positive label.

On the other hand, boys who play with dolls, play dress up, and interested in the arts or musics are looked at as "different"...maybe not accepted by their peers. The term "sissy" is seen as a negative label.

Like in my class, I have 4 bean bags...they are red, green, loud pink and yellow. I have 5 students both sexes. Well, during reading time, the boys REFUSE to sit on the pink bags (mind u..this is 1st grade) and if for some reason one of my boys sit on the bean bag, the other students EVEN the girls mock him saying that is for girls only BUT when the girls sit on the blue bean bags, nobody makes a big fuss. Something to really look at...

It is just interesting that this sort of behavior starts so early with all of us. I do remember that I could play with my brother's toys but whenever he played with my dolls, my dad would have a fit and ban him from going into my room to play with my "girlie" things.

I dont know if there is a correlation but something to think about...

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shel90

That is a very interesting point...thanks for sharing that.

I do agree with u. I have seen lesbain women who ARE sooo georgous and very feminine. Look at the former model who died of AIDS in 1986..Gia. She was one of the most beautiful models in the world in the late 70s and early 80s and she was a straight lesbain..not BI. She loved being with women but looking at her, you would have a classic case of "Do not judge the book by its cover."

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Phillips

Agree that...


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Southern

Wow. for the lesbian i would have to say that while yes you are met with harassment and hatred like i am the fear of death should not be with you like it is with me. Examples, Mathew Shepherd, Barry Wichle, the clip that was posted above about the bar. These are things that happen to gay men. How many acts of lesbianbashing are there? I would like to see them as i am always wanting to learn. It is the men of the community that this happens to. you may get stares or have some one yell "DIKE" at you but i have to worry about baseball bats being strapped to a fence, ax to the head or broom shove up me. This hatred people have for us never meeting us i don't understand. That is something both sides of our community have to deal with.
And i am not girly, such a miscomception. I can when joking around but i am, "straight acting" as we say in the community 95% of the time. There are some gay people who don't realize i am gay until they are told. I do have nice clothes and fix my hair nice. I also have ratty clothes and go with out getting my hair cut or shaving. The comment about the ram and lion and gay men giving up? I.... I just um...... where were you going with that. I hope you look in here and can answer that because i senserly do not understand the analogy. I have ben attracted to men my entire life. I didn't know i was gay until i became an adult but i was always attracted to men so i am not sure about the giving up. I would like to pass my name on but there we are...
On last thing all gay men are not attractive OMG are they not there are some really, really ugly gay men out there. No really ugly y'all. And lesbians look at Porche Derosi i know i spelled her name wrong but she is Elen's girlfriend and she is so beautiful!!!

operatorally

Southern, I want to respond to you but also want to emphasize that I don't want to compete over whether lesbians or gay men 'have it harder' than one another. I never said the we do, just that I think its a misconception to assume that gay men always have a harder time because things are different for everyone. Violence against women tends to be more invisible.
One of the things about violence about lesbians is that the statistics usually get wrapped up with all the violence against women statistics. I had a coworker whose lesbian cousin was killed by an angry exhusband and it was never reported as a homophobic crime, even though it was. Also, lesbians are often raped in our experiences of homophobic violence and this isn't often reported because rape is the most underreported violent crime there is for too many reasons to count.
Also, in terms of body size, women tend to be smaller than men, so it is easier for a single male to attack us, while homophobes usually attack queer men in groups so that there is no physical competition, and group violence tends to get more attention.
Another factor would be the fact that gay men gather in public places for sex [safe sex, may i add] and bashers find them more visible because of this. I should add that there's nothing wrong with this, and all queers should be able to have such gatherings without fear of violence as long as they respect those around them.
Again, I don't doubt the validity of the violence you face, I just want to make it clear that it's not a one sided thing, I have been bashed and assaulted and look over my shoulder everywhere I go, especially at night. When people tell me I have it easier I simply beg to differ on a personal level.

VamPyroX

From my observation, I've seen gays and lesbians causing a big scene in public very often. Out of every party I've been too, the ones fighting most of the time are lesbians and gays.

Last weekend, I was at a party. There was this lesbian couple there who got in a fight and it was loud... stomping and banging.

I was at the mini-mart here on campus a couple nights ago and there was a gay couple screaming at each other.

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Southern

Operatorally. Thanks for that. It's what i was looking for. I forgot about those instances. Some husbands do turn violent on their wives when they find out they are lesbians. It is considered domestic violence. I can see how lesbianbashing shall we term it here would be lumped in with violenc against women. And i wasn't saying that it hasn't happened i just said i had not heard of it, so i am gald you brought that to my attention. Lord lets not get into a competition over who gets hurt more, we would become a sad people at that point if we did.
VampyroX that is surprising. It must be where you live. Physical violence is typically not something gay men do. We use our words, in our comunity anyone can pick something up and through it. it takes far more skill to slice and dice some one with your mind. That is not to say it never happens because it does there are some violent gays out there. Operatorally maybe you can speak as to the lesbian side of things, i don't like the girly parts you can have em honey!! LMAO
oh and i am so sorry you have had that experience.

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SxyPorkie

Stop making idiot statements against gays and lesbians... show respects,,,

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