Attn: Addressing some issues that has been going on. - Page 4

jillio · 10-14-2009, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerendipityG3A

In that case, you could simply say that it was so many years ago that you don't remember, rather than "Find it yourself." I wouldn't expect you to remember after so long, and even if it was just yesterday, it's perfectly okay if you just forgot. Saying, "I've given you all the information you need" vs "I'm sorry, I don't have more specific information" makes a difference. That's my point.

I didn't mean to address the point of troublemakers. I think their problem is their own, and we all have that ignore button if they really bother us that much. But since I've been accused of missing the point, I'll just say that I know there are people out there whose soul purpose in life is to make others suffer, but I would rather misjudge a cruel person as kind and treat him/her with courtesy than misjudge a kind person as cruel and treat him/her with discourtesy. Providing information that I have at my fingertips doesn't make me suffer, much to the troublemakers' distress. If said troublemakers refuse to access the information I provide, it's their loss as far as I'm concerned. If they choose to pursue the matter after ignoring my citation, they can wine and cry to me til they're blue in the face, and I won't waste my time with them. That's not my point though.

By the way, I didn't ask for a paragraph or line, and if you only have a rough guess where I might find it, that's just human, and that's perfectly alright with me. I'm not a university professor. If I were, this is not my classroom. If you aren't able to provide me with enough information, I'm not going to give you a bad grade. I'm perfectly capable of forgetting where I may have read certain things. In fact, it has happened many times.

So, am I clear? I don't mean that like a commander or something. I'm just asking if there's anything I can clarify. I'm not too good with words.

But the fact of the matter is, when you have been directed to a specific source, it is not a matter of "I've forgotten." It is a matter of I read the material and synthesized it into my knowlege base. Here is where you can find it.

You are doing fine with words, and with making your point.

Let me ask you this: Have you ever taken an open book exam? The instructor tells you which textbook the answer can be found in, but they certainly don't give you the exact page, paragraph, or line on which to find it.

The same with any type of paper you are writing. They may point you in the direction of specific journals or publications that would be useful for your topic. They don't however, give you links to articles, or tell you which articles in a particular journal contains specific information.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime. Learning requires that some effort be made on the behalf of the one learning. If one chooses not to make the effort, that is certainly their choice to make. However, if they are indeed serious about learning and gaining new information, they will make the effort. And it also weeds out the demands for a link that are being made simply to cause discord.

Cowpuppy · 10-14-2009, 10:37 PM

And that is when I will quote the previous post about 'why do some people feel entitled to be spoon fed this information. And teaching a man to fish. Nobody owes you anything cuz you got a bug up your butt about a particular issue. The issue is with you....not others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

If someone claims a piece of information exists, whether within a document or on Google, even if I previously thought otherwise, I'll double check thoroughly to make sure. If I still can't find it, I don't automatically assume dishonesty- after all, I could have missed it, or perhaps the information wasn't explicit and I failed to read between the lines. I'll give that person the benefit of the doubt and ask for more specifics. If that person refuses to cooperate after I've given an honest effort, and especially if that person uses the opportunity to smugly deride my research abilities, that's when I determine I'm talking to a dishonest windbag.

darkdog · 10-14-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowpuppy

And that is when I will quote the previous post about 'why do some people feel entitled to be spoon fed this information. And teaching a man to fish. Nobody owes you anything cuz you got a bug up your butt about a particular issue. The issue is with you....not others.

So for trying to give the benefit of the doubt, I now carry a sense of entitlement and have a bug up my butt. Perhaps I should be quicker to just assume someone is a mendacious charlatan instead of giving them another chance to prove they're not.

By the way, everything you just said is wrong. It's explained in the Journal of Philosophy. Find it. Learn to fish.

SerendipityG3A · 10-14-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

But the fact of the matter is, when you have been directed to a specific source, it is not a matter of "I've forgotten." It is a matter of I read the material and synthesized it into my knowlege base. Here is where you can find it.

You are doing fine with words, and with making your point.

Let me ask you this: Have you ever taken an open book exam? The instructor tells you which textbook the answer can be found in, but they certainly don't give you the exact page, paragraph, or line on which to find it.

The same with any type of paper you are writing. They may point you in the direction of specific journals or publications that would be useful for your topic. They don't however, give you links to articles, or tell you which articles in a particular journal contains specific information.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime. Learning requires that some effort be made on the behalf of the one learning. If one chooses not to make the effort, that is certainly their choice to make. However, if they are indeed serious about learning and gaining new information, they will make the effort. And it also weeds out the demands for a link that are being made simply to cause discord.

If you're talking about like if you read the big book, and what you said to me was something you understood from the book as a result of reading the entire thing, then that makes sense. In other words, to your knowledge, the fact in question isn't explicitly stated anywhere in the book, but it is implied by the content of the book in whole. That'd be fine. I could accept that. I might even read the book if I was that interested.

In a casual setting, I don't like my conversations to be instructor/student style though. It's more comfortable to be more friendly. I'm a deaf student attending a hearing institution. Believe me, nobody helps me with my research. They don't even know how to communicate with me. I do my own all the time. I know how to do it. It's just that, why should I do something that's already been done? It's not like I need to prove that I know how to do it. I wouldn't ask you to search for the information if you didn't already have it on hand unless it was something that you really wanted me to know. Those tools trying to waste my time don't bother me. The only time they're wasting is their own. I have no fear of ignoring bullies, and that's what they are if their clear intent is to make trouble (even though some think they're being sly and wise, trying to make us think they're being sincere so that they can see how long they can get away with it, then laugh when they think they had us fooled).

CJB · 10-14-2009, 11:30 PM

Sounds like there are two camps even on this thread. The "do your own research" camp and the "provide the research" camp.

wildzerica06 · 10-14-2009, 11:35 PM

interesting topic... but i think people should get along don't reply if to a topic if it makes them upset... 2nd of all I hope those issues can be resolved sooner or later

besides i hadn't been around for a while so figures so I have alot to catch up but nah I'm here then *poof* gone..

SerendipityG3A · 10-14-2009, 11:48 PM

Well, this camper is rolling out his big fluffy sleeping bag and calling it a night. I'll catch up later if there's anything more.

saywhatkid · 10-15-2009, 12:14 AM

Funny how the topic about fighting becomes a fight.

CJB · 10-15-2009, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Funny how the topic about fighting becomes a fight.

Welcome to AD.

deafskeptic · 10-15-2009, 12:21 AM

at what cjb and saywhat kid said.

SerendipityG3A · 10-15-2009, 01:01 AM

I thought it was a pretty civil discussion

Okay, I'm asleep! Really!

Cowpuppy · 10-15-2009, 01:14 AM

Ha ha....how did 'dishonest windbag'...turn into 'I tried to give them a benefit of doubt'?. I didn't catch the giving of benifit of doubt. If you did fine...but your post was more leaning toward calling names if not providing a link for everything.
That's also a very vague claim.
I say everything you say is wrong......does that make me right?
Nice try professor. Philosophy is a vague proffession open to many interpretations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

So for trying to give the benefit of the doubt, I now carry a sense of entitlement and have a bug up my butt. Perhaps I should be quicker to just assume someone is a mendacious charlatan instead of giving them another chance to prove they're not.

By the way, everything you just said is wrong. It's explained in the Journal of Philosophy. Find it. Learn to fish.

rockdrummer · 10-15-2009, 10:38 AM

There are threads that have been locked and its a shame because they hold valueable infromation and discussion.

jillio · 10-15-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerendipityG3A

If you're talking about like if you read the big book, and what you said to me was something you understood from the book as a result of reading the entire thing, then that makes sense. In other words, to your knowledge, the fact in question isn't explicitly stated anywhere in the book, but it is implied by the content of the book in whole. That'd be fine. I could accept that. I might even read the book if I was that interested.

In a casual setting, I don't like my conversations to be instructor/student style though. It's more comfortable to be more friendly. I'm a deaf student attending a hearing institution. Believe me, nobody helps me with my research. They don't even know how to communicate with me. I do my own all the time. I know how to do it. It's just that, why should I do something that's already been done? It's not like I need to prove that I know how to do it. I wouldn't ask you to search for the information if you didn't already have it on hand unless it was something that you really wanted me to know. Those tools trying to waste my time don't bother me. The only time they're wasting is their own. I have no fear of ignoring bullies, and that's what they are if their clear intent is to make trouble (even though some think they're being sly and wise, trying to make us think they're being sincere so that they can see how long they can get away with it, then laugh when they think they had us fooled).

Yes,that is exactly what I am talking about. Knowlege that has been synthesized from several different sources. In that case, one can point to the direction of the source. Once cannot, however, detail page numbers and offer links in that case. It does not even have to apply to books. It can apply to research reports that have been read over the years, and are many in number. When one says, "research says" that means that it is cummalive research from several reports and sources. The very best one can do in that case is offer formatted citations for the research; however, to expect that, when the research has covered a number of years, is unreasonable.

My son, as well, is a deaf student at a hearing college. And no one does his research for him, either. I understand your position completely.

However, to answer your question, why should I do what has already been done? That is how true learning takes place. When you do it for yourself, you are much more likely to remember it and be able to apply it to real life situations than if someone simply placed it in front of you.

darkdog · 10-15-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowpuppy

Ha ha....how did 'dishonest windbag'...turn into 'I tried to give them a benefit of doubt'?. I didn't catch the giving of benifit of doubt. If you did fine...but your post was more leaning toward calling names if not providing a link for everything.
That's also a very vague claim.
I say everything you say is wrong......does that make me right?
Nice try professor. Philosophy is a vague proffession open to many interpretations.

It's pretty simple. The person lying about the existence of a piece of information would have been a dishonest windbag the entire time, but I typically don't make that determination until I double-check the source and then ask for a more specific location. At that point, if I get a negative response, I determine I'm talking to a dishonest windbag.

It seems to be the MO of some to lie and then make others look stupid. Would "dishonest windbag" not be a good description of such a person? However, look through my history though and you'll be hard pressed to find any instances of me name-calling any individual on AD.

And don't go looking through the Journal of Philosophy. You won't find anything. That's just an example of what I've seen here. Doesn't make much sense, eh?

jillio · 10-15-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

It's pretty simple. The person lying about the existence of a piece of information would have been a dishonest windbag the entire time, but I typically don't make that determination until I double-check the source and then ask for a more specific location. At that point, if I get a negative response, I determine I'm talking to a dishonest windbag.

It seems to be the MO of some to lie and then make others look stupid. Would "dishonest windbag" not be a good description of such a person? However, look through my history though and you'll be hard pressed to find any instances of me name-calling any individual on AD.

And don't go looking through the Journal of Philosophy. You won't find anything. That's just an example of what I've seen here. Doesn't make much sense, eh?

It is much more likely that you are getting a negative response because of the manner in which you phrase your request.

Take an example from the posts you have made in this thread. They are all very argumentative.

faire_jour · 10-15-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowpuppy

And that is when I will quote the previous post about 'why do some people feel entitled to be spoon fed this information. And teaching a man to fish. Nobody owes you anything cuz you got a bug up your butt about a particular issue. The issue is with you....not others.

But then people can claim whatever they want, say it is backed up by research and facts and then say "Go find it yourself. I'm teaching you to fish." When in fact they have nothing to back up their statements. And then they can strut around like an expert, and have everyone say "See, I was right, because (Poster) says there is research to back me up". And there never was!!!

darkdog · 10-15-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It is much more likely that you are getting a negative response because of the manner in which you phrase your request.

Take an example from the posts you have made in this thread. They are all very argumentative.

Can you give me an example of an appropriate way to word the question such that if the other person still does not cooperate, I can then fairly determine that person is not acting in good faith? That would be very helpful.

faire_jour · 10-15-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Can you give me an example of an appropriate way to word the question such that if the other person still does not cooperate, I can then fairly determine that person is not acting in good faith? That would be very helpful.

No, you need to figure that out for yourself. They wouldn't want to "give you a fish".

jillio · 10-15-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

But then people can claim whatever they want, say it is backed up by research and facts and then say "Go find it yourself. I'm teaching you to fish." When in fact they have nothing to back up their statements. And then they can strut around like an expert, and have everyone say "See, I was right, because (Poster) says there is research to back me up". And there never was!!!

Ahh...but research sources are provided. What is not provided is a quick link.

jillio · 10-15-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Can you give me an example of an appropriate way to word the question such that if the other person still does not cooperate, I can then fairly determine that person is not acting in good faith? That would be very helpful.

How about, "I am really interested in learning more about that. Can you point me in the direction of more research on that topic."

When requests are phrased in the form of a challenge, and the impression is given that one does not really want to learn from the research, but is simply challenging in the hopes that research cannot be provided, or in an attempt to simply prove one wrong, instead of engaging in a give and take of ideas, it is not likely that the request will be responded to with favor.

I know I have, on many occasions, emailed entire research documents to members of this board that have indicated that they were truly interested in gaining more information regarding a topic.

faire_jour · 10-15-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Ahh...but research sources are provided. What is not provided is a quick link.

What provided is "I provided that before, look it up" or "I'm not here to do your research", or "I get paid X dollars an hour to research, are you going to pay that?"

darkdog · 10-15-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

How about, "I am really interested in learning more about that. Can you point me in the direction of more research on that topic."

I'll keep that in mind, but that's a whole different situation. I'm not talking about asking for more sources. I'm talking about a situation in which I'm trying to locate a specific piece of information within a specific document because someone else claims it's there but I still can't find it after an exhaustive search. Could you show me how to word the question of where inside the document the information is located in such a way that it does not come off as a challenge and any fair-minded person would cooperate?

ASLGAL · 10-15-2009, 01:00 PM

I have been busy and not able to visit AD for a while, apparently missed a lot.
From what I gather from the conversation, I am glad I missed out

Truths I have learned here at AD:
No matter how clear you think you are there will be someone who misinterprets your meaning, whether innocently or purposely,
Once your meaning is lost there is almost no way to explain it that will be understood or accepted,
and the big one...
In order to maintain friendships there are certain threads one must not enter if they are a strong minded person

Jolie, if rules change or modify will you let everyone know so no one is taken by surprise?

It would be unfair if a person faced banning because of something that had been common place and acceptable before.

Jiro · 10-15-2009, 01:15 PM

ASLGAL - welcome back! I've been wondering where you were!

ASLGAL · 10-15-2009, 01:23 PM

Thanks JIRO.
I did not get into trouble

promise

My grandfather (90) very ill and not bouncing back this time
Youngest Daughter just had her first, I am a Nana again

Finishing up ASL APPS, the limit at the local college before I need to decide the direction for my retirement career

and of course, work work work
TMI, sorry!!

jillio · 10-15-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

No, you need to figure that out for yourself. They wouldn't want to "give you a fish".

This is a perfect example of the type of attitude that leads to refusals.

jillio · 10-15-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

What provided is "I provided that before, look it up" or "I'm not here to do your research", or "I get paid X dollars an hour to research, are you going to pay that?"

Again, another example of the attitude that results in refusals.

And if the resource has been provided prior, it is redundant to provide it again. When I am asked to provide complete citations, post multiple page research articles, and redundantly provide information previously provided, it is a use of my time. Therefore, if anyone wants me to go to the length of doing everything for them, rather than giving them the information required to accomplish it themselves, it is reasonable to let them know that I get paid for that type of service.

jillio · 10-15-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

I'll keep that in mind, but that's a whole different situation. I'm not talking about asking for more sources. I'm talking about a situation in which I'm trying to locate a specific piece of information within a specific document because someone else claims it's there but I still can't find it after an exhaustive search. Could you show me how to word the question of where inside the document the information is located in such a way that it does not come off as a challenge and any fair-minded person would cooperate?

Use the previous example as a guide. It is a matter of not being challenging or accusatory when asking, that's all. Perhaps, "I'd like to be able to see where you are coming from, but am having trouble locating the information you are using."

This is not addressed to you, but is an "in general" suggestion. If you are guilty of routinely ignoring questions that have been asked of you, then chances are great that no one will feel the need to respond when you ask one.

jillio · 10-15-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

ASLGAL - welcome back! I've been wondering where you were!

Yep! Welcome back, gal! Long time no see.

10-15-2009, 12:14 AM	#98 (permalink)
saywhatkid Thinking outside the box Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Trapped in a box Posts: 1,916	Funny how the topic about fighting becomes a fight. __________________ "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." — Jimi Hendrix

10-15-2009, 12:21 AM	#100 (permalink)
deafskeptic Empress Skeptia Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,528	at what cjb and saywhat kid said. __________________ Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007. Activated on May 9th.

10-15-2009, 01:00 PM	#114 (permalink)
ASLGAL Here's Your Sign ;-D Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 708	I have been busy and not able to visit AD for a while, apparently missed a lot. From what I gather from the conversation, I am glad I missed out Truths I have learned here at AD: No matter how clear you think you are there will be someone who misinterprets your meaning, whether innocently or purposely, Once your meaning is lost there is almost no way to explain it that will be understood or accepted, and the big one... In order to maintain friendships there are certain threads one must not enter if they are a strong minded person Jolie, if rules change or modify will you let everyone know so no one is taken by surprise? It would be unfair if a person faced banning because of something that had been common place and acceptable before. __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ~ Edmund Burke~ "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" ~ Socrates ~

10-15-2009, 01:15 PM	#115 (permalink)
Jiro YOU DOMESTIC DISSENT! Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Sopranos State Posts: 22,961	ASLGAL - welcome back! I've been wondering where you were! __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

10-15-2009, 01:23 PM	#116 (permalink)
ASLGAL Here's Your Sign ;-D Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 708	Thanks JIRO. I did not get into trouble promise My grandfather (90) very ill and not bouncing back this time Youngest Daughter just had her first, I am a Nana again Finishing up ASL APPS, the limit at the local college before I need to decide the direction for my retirement career and of course, work work work TMI, sorry!! __________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ~ Edmund Burke~ "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" ~ Socrates ~

Today
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10-14-2009, 11:30 PM	#95 (permalink)
CJB deafblind writer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: U.S. Posts: 1,425	Sounds like there are two camps even on this thread. The "do your own research" camp and the "provide the research" camp.

10-14-2009, 11:35 PM	#96 (permalink)
wildzerica06 -Erica- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: california Posts: 4,340 Blog Entries: 2	interesting topic... but i think people should get along don't reply if to a topic if it makes them upset... 2nd of all I hope those issues can be resolved sooner or later besides i hadn't been around for a while so figures so I have alot to catch up but nah I'm here then poof gone..

10-14-2009, 11:48 PM	#97 (permalink)
SerendipityG3A Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 77	Well, this camper is rolling out his big fluffy sleeping bag and calling it a night. I'll catch up later if there's anything more.

10-15-2009, 01:01 AM	#101 (permalink)
SerendipityG3A Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 77	I thought it was a pretty civil discussion Okay, I'm asleep! Really!

10-15-2009, 10:38 AM	#103 (permalink)
rockdrummer Weapon of mass percussion Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago area Posts: 4,090	There are threads that have been locked and its a shame because they hold valueable infromation and discussion.

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