Baby born deaf will get 'bionic ears' that could help him hear and talk - Page 12

jillio · 05-28-2011, 01:30 PM

Thank you.

We can now get back to a discussion that is not being derailed by someone not getting all of the information. Thank you

for making your choice.

kokonut · 05-28-2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

I never said 17-18 yr olds either. I threw out the 4th grade reading level so you can understand my beef with the mainstream, that is all.

And since you pretty much confirmed it in your previous post towards me I don't see any reason to try to hairsplit over the numbers.

We have a problem, low reading rates. No matter how you slice it, we have this issue.

Also, another fact, large % of the deaf population is in the mainstream.

That is what I was pointing out earlier.

And I extend you my sincere thank-you for agreeing with me in post 312.

I know you didn't say 17 to 18 year olds. I said that. I've seen it before many times when the 4th grade literacy meme comes up again and people use that to mean deaf adults which is factually incorrect. I put that out to make it clear to everybody.

Yes, a large number of deaf AND hoh population are in the mainstream or public schools. I've had several hoh friends in college with mild and some moderate hearing loss with hearing aids, and one profoundly deaf guy getting a PhD. Yes, I know. Not the same thing as public schools but there are kids with all kinds of hearing losses...not just the profoundly deaf ones.

posts from hell · 05-28-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

I know you didn't say 17 to 18 year olds. I said that. I've seen it before many times when the 4th grade literacy meme comes up again and people use that to mean deaf adults which is factually incorrect. I put that out to make it clear to everybody.

Yes, a large number of deaf AND hoh population are in the mainstream or public schools. I've had several hoh friends in college with mild and some moderate hearing loss with hearing aids, and one profoundly deaf guy getting a PhD. Yes, I know. Not the same thing as public schools but there are kids with all kinds of hearing losses...not just the profoundly deaf ones.

I have several friends with Ph.D.'s that are Deaf. That does not matter. Nor should hearing levels.

Point is, again, we have a problem in our education system. 90% of that is the mainstream.

Disagree?

**TXgolfer** · 05-28-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

We are talking about this thread ans people getting accused of attacking calums mom, aren't we? Why bring past issues into this thread? That just makes you just as guilty as of the stuff you are accusing us of. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Would you onsider post 19 a friendly weloming to a new member?

**Bottesini** · 05-28-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Would you onsider post 19 a friendly weloming to a new member?

That really is just a statement of fact. Before two or three it isn't possible.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

I know you didn't say 17 to 18 year olds. I said that. I've seen it before many times when the 4th grade literacy meme comes up again and people use that to mean deaf adults which is factually incorrect. I put that out to make it clear to everybody.

Yes, a large number of deaf AND hoh population are in the mainstream or public schools. I've had several hoh friends in college with mild and some moderate hearing loss with hearing aids, and one profoundly deaf guy getting a PhD. Yes, I know. Not the same thing as public schools but there are kids with all kinds of hearing losses...not just the profoundly deaf ones.

The scores pertain to deaf high school seniors. That could be anywhere from 16-21. Since there are no standardized scores for anyone after high school graduation, your assumption that even most deaf adults are reading at appropriate levels to their age is nothing more than that; an assumption. The 3 cases you cited do absolutely nothing to change the numbers. You are attempting to refute hard numbers with anecdote. It cannot be done.

The numbers are there. It is not just the profoundly deaf kids in the mainstream that are testing out at 4th grade reading levels. Those numbers include any child that has an identified hearing loss.

kokonut · 05-28-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

I have several friends with Ph.D.'s that are Deaf. That does not matter. Nor should hearing levels.

Point is, again, we have a problem in our education system. 90% of that is the mainstream.

Disagree?

There's a problem in both the Deaf and mainstream schooling system as I see it. The degree and to what extent are what's hard to estimate. Problem is still there. Some are good. Some not. Tell you why, I've friends with mild hearing losses who went to regular school and did fine. So are some of my friends who are profoundly deaf who grew up with SEE are doing great. Some went to mainstreamed school. Some went to deaf schools. Some are hoh. Some are Deaf. And these are mostly in my age group, too. But I know that isn't supposed to be a representative example which goes to show just how complex this education system is. The key is parental involvement and that's the common thing I saw with my friends about their parents. They were deeply involved with their educational upbringing.

AlleyCat · 05-28-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

That really is just a statement of fact. Before two or three it isn't possible.

Have to agree with that!

**deafskeptic** · 05-28-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The scores pertain to deaf high school seniors. That could be anywhere from 16-21. Since there are no standardized scores for anyone after high school graduation, your assumption that even most deaf adults are reading at appropriate levels to their age is nothing more than that; an assumption. The 3 cases you cited do absolutely nothing to change the numbers. You are attempting to refute hard numbers with anecdote. It cannot be done.

The numbers are there. It is not just the profoundly deaf kids in the mainstream that are testing out at 4th grade reading levels. Those numbers include any child that has an identified hearing loss.

Yep. I remember one classmate who could speak on the phone and who could converse with the hearing.. I was shocked at the quality of his writing even though I had been in the oral program with him from preschool to 3rd grade.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

There's a problem in both the Deaf and mainstream schooling system as I see it. The degree and to what extent are what's hard to estimate. Problem is still there. Some are good. Some not. Tell you why, I've friends with mild hearing losses who went to regular school and did fine. So are some of my friends who are profoundly deaf who grew up with SEE are doing great. Some went to mainstreamed school. Some went to deaf schools. Some are hoh. Some are Deaf. And these are these are mostly in my age group, too. But I know that isn't supposed to be a representative example which goes to show just how complex this education system is. The key is parental involvement and that's the common thing I saw with my friends about their parents. They were deeply involved with their educational upbringing.

Since 90% of the students are being educated in the mainstream, the effect that Deaf schools will have on the numbers is minimal. You cannot expect 10% of the students to raise the numbers for 90% of the students.

The point is, since we are seeing the rates we are seeing, why are so many children still being placed in mainstream programs that are not serving their needs?

jillio · 05-28-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Yep. I remember one classmate who could speak on the phone and who could converse with the hearing.. I was shocked at the quality of his writing even though I had been in the oral program with him from preschool to 3rd grade.

Exactly.

**deafskeptic** · 05-28-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Since 90% of the students are being educated in the mainstream, the effect that Deaf schools will have on the numbers is minimal. You cannot expect 10% of the students to raise the numbers for 90% of the students.

The point is, since we are seeing the rates we are seeing, why are so many children still being placed in mainstream programs that are not serving their needs?

That's the question of this century.

posts from hell · 05-28-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

There's a problem in both the Deaf and mainstream schooling system as I see it. The degree and to what extent are what's hard to estimate. Problem is still there. Some are good. Some not. Tell you why, I've friends with mild hearing losses who went to regular school and did fine. So are some of my friends who are profoundly deaf who grew up with SEE are doing great. Some went to mainstreamed school. Some went to deaf schools. Some are hoh. Some are Deaf. And these are these are mostly in my age group, too. But I know that isn't supposed to be a representative example which goes to show just how complex this education system is. The key is parental involvement and that's the common thing I saw with my friends about their parents. They were deeply involved with their educational upbringing.

There is a problem. Glad we agree on that.

Like I said, hearing/identity status shouldn't matter. As of now, the system in place is not working.

Four or five people don't change the picture. I consider myself just a tip of the needle point when you look at the system, so should you and your four or five friends.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

There is a problem. Glad we agree on that.

Like I said, hearing/identity status shouldn't matter. As of now, the system in place is not working.

Four or five people don't change the picture. I consider myself just a tip of the needle point when you look at the system, so should you and your four or five friends.

True, that. My concern is that, given the numbers, given the problems that are there, why are some deaf people still supporting such an environment for deaf students, and why are parents still choosing it? This is where it can get sticky. Every time a person with a hearing loss supports an audist attitude in a hearing parent, that parent hangs onto it for all it is worth, while rejecting the facts presented by others. It is natural for a parent to want their child to go to school in the mainstream with all the other kids...and they will take support given from pure emotion and ulterior motives as fact when it is not. I find this practice very dangerous for deaf kids. Are the parents to blame? Of course not. They are walking into a situation they know virtually nothing about. Are those dispensing innacurracies just to appear to be "on a hearing parent's side" to blame. Absolutely. They are intentionally misguiding with no concern for facts or the child's welfare. It is an unfortunate fact that hearing parents need to hear some things they don't necessarly want to hear if they are to prepare themselves to raise their deaf child in the best way they can. I had to hear them, and every parent has to hear them. Molly coddling out of ulterior motives does no one any good.

posts from hell · 05-28-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

True, that. My concern is that, given the numbers, given the problems that are there, why are some deaf people still supporting such an environment for deaf students, and why are parents still choosing it.

back to my original post.... why?

kokonut · 05-28-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

There is a problem. Glad we agree on that.

Like I said, hearing/identity status shouldn't matter. As of now, the system in place is not working.

Four or five people don't change the picture. I consider myself just a tip of the needle point when you look at the system, so should you and your four or five friends.

Not sure what you meant by "tip of the needle point" about the system. I see it that there is no one size shoe fits all here but parental involvement is the biggest key here imho.

posts from hell · 05-28-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Not sure what you meant by "tip of the needle point" about the system. I see it that there is no one size shoe fits all here but parental involvement is the biggest key here imho.

How big is a needle point? I am that big.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

back to my original post.... why?

Because hearing parents naturally have a hearing perspective, and with that goes audist belief systems that they have been raised to have. They know nothing about deafness, and all they want is to make their deaf child like their other kids, or the neighborhood kids, etc. The CI manufacturers, the audis (some of them), the CI surgeons, etc. all serve to reinforce for these parents that they can get what they want...technology plus mainstream. Parents believe it because they want to believe it. But, the focus is in the wrong place. We should not worry about making parents believe they can have what they want for their deaf child. We should be making them understand that the child's needs are more important than the parent's wants. When the child's needs are put first, the parent will automatically get what they want...a well educated, happy capable, deaf adult.

kokonut · 05-28-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

How big is a needle point? I am that big.

Maybe you meant tip of the iceberg?

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:40 PM

No, he meant needle. Or more specifically pin. In reference to how many camels can you fit on the head of a pin?

The tip of an iceberg would be used to reference a solution that could not begin to solve a problem.

**TXgolfer** · 05-28-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

That really is just a statement of fact. Before two or three it isn't possible.

Are there friendly and welcoming ways to state facts to new members?

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Are there friendly and welcoming ways to state facts to new members?

How would you have stated that fact objectively and impersonally?

kokonut · 05-28-2011, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Are there friendly and welcoming ways to state facts to new members?

Without a doubt.

**Bottesini** · 05-28-2011, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Are there friendly and welcoming ways to state facts to new members?

I really like to just get the facts. I don't relate well to people who are emotional.

So I think it is perfect.

**sallylou** · 05-28-2011, 02:45 PM

I'm disturbed by the fact that the mom arrived here by googling her kid's name. She came here looking for a fight and then played the victim. Very manipulative.

Personally, I won't even put my kids' names on Facebook. Some people want more attention.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I really like to just get the facts. I don't relate well to people who are emotional.

So I think it is perfect.

Thank you. The problem was not that I was stating facts improperly. The problem is that some want to attach emotional meaning that was not there in order to inflame and start arguments. Just silly boys playing silly games. Shame that they have to use a thread intended to help educated a hearing parent to do it.

kokonut · 05-28-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

I'm disturbed by the fact that the mom arrived here by googling her kid's name. She came here looking for a fight and then played the victim. Very manipulative.

Personally, I won't even put my kids' names on Facebook. Some people want more attention.

I'm more disturbed how people here treated her, and essentially ganged up on her. Now, she has a nice pretty picture of what Deaf culture looks like.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

I'm disturbed by the fact that the mom arrived here by googling her kid's name. She came here looking for a fight and then played the victim. Very manipulative.

Personally, I won't even put my kids' names on Facebook. Some people want more attention.

And there are the few that bought right into it because they saw an opportunity to play out a personal dislike.

jillio · 05-28-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

I'm more disturbed how people here treated her, and essentially ganged up on her. Now, she has a nice pretty picture of what Deaf culture looks like.

Kind of like you and TxGolfer are doing now? Or the way you did with your blatant trolling thread this morning?

She has no idea what Deaf culture looks like. Her son is a year old. She hasn't even ventured into it yet.

**TXgolfer** · 05-28-2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I really like to just get the facts. I don't relate well to people who are emotional.

So I think it is perfect.

I disagree.....but no biggie. I mean this wasn't a debate thread. :shrug:

05-28-2011, 02:45 PM	#355 (permalink)
sallylou Potterhead and Janeite Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 6,653	I'm disturbed by the fact that the mom arrived here by googling her kid's name. She came here looking for a fight and then played the victim. Very manipulative. Personally, I won't even put my kids' names on Facebook. Some people want more attention. shel90, Bebonang and Bottesini like this. __________________

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05-28-2011, 01:30 PM	#331 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Thank you. We can now get back to a discussion that is not being derailed by someone not getting all of the information. Thank you for making your choice.

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05-28-2011, 02:40 PM	#350 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	No, he meant needle. Or more specifically pin. In reference to how many camels can you fit on the head of a pin? The tip of an iceberg would be used to reference a solution that could not begin to solve a problem.