shel90

I feel the excuses are probably used by the medical community and others to make sure the parents implant their children or not send them to programs that use ASL and they are..

The parents will never achieve fluency in ASL

The child will never develop spoken English

The programs don't allow spoken English to aid the CIs

ASL grammar is too different from English

The child will never communicate with the majority of the population

And many more

BUT

Many of use have proven these myths wrong.

That is why I think the real issue here is...

Make the deaf child as hearing as they can and ignore their deafness.

Iam seeing one excuse after another here why not to use ASL. It is really sad because ASL has really enchanced many of our lives and we cherish it with a passion.

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GrendelQ

The only people I see making excuses are those who are saying that their parents didn't become fluent, but that OK with them.

I think that's sad. Yes, you did fine even though your parents couldn't discuss complex issues with you, even though you worked around communication barriers, even though your school became your primary source of learning. But I'm also seeing so many of you complaining that people didn't or don't learn ASL. If it's no big deal, then why do you care if the people around you don't use your primary language?

But I think it's a very big deal. I think it's absolutely necessary that I am fluent in my child's language. That I can communicate at a far higher level than she in these early years, stretching her abilities, building her vocabulary at home. She'll learn some basic facts and socialization in prek, but I don't think that she'll learn to communicate, to read, to write, or how to learn in general, or discuss her feelings, her impressions, her hopes and fears with others the way she will with me. If we wake up together and she wants to relate her dreams, I want the language to walk through them, to assuage fears and build on great ideas. I want to be able to communicate literature to her, without dumbing it down to the basic vocabulary I get in ASL 1, 2 3... . Because I don't have PFH for a teacher, I recognize that my level of ASL is rudimentary, primitive, if it were English, I'd be considered very ignorant. A parent should teach a child so much, schools are no substitute for that until specialization: until college.

You are the guardians of the language, apparently, and you continuously tell us parents that we need to be paying attention to you, to your guidance, so stop providing excuses for the people around you who didn't learn ASL and start providing the means for families of deaf children to learn the language.

sallylou

GrendelQ, I've learned a lot of ASL in 8 months. I'm doing really well at the ASL socials. I'm going deaf so I'm really motivated. It's a matter of priorities and discipline. It's probably easier to learn with a child because you can learn as the child learns. I just immersed myself. Some of my deaf friends still laugh at how clueless I was when I showed up. lol

HHIssues,don't make it a "us" versus "them" debate. It's fine if you don't identify with the deaf community, but don't put the deaf community down on this forum.

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GrendelQ

Yes it is. If you take it upon yourself to tell us we SHOULD be fluent, then you ought to walk the talk and explain just how that's supposed to happen.

The challenge here is that if you actually looked into it, I think you'd find that it's not quite as accessible a route as you seem to think. And if I were evangelizing a language as you are, I'd be lobbying for making that language accessible, rather than making empty declaration that the language is out there in the ether, just waiting to jump in our heads.

My daughter is in a bi-bi learning environment and we're committed to a bilingual education. But I've got to say that those evangelizing an auditory - verbal approach actually provide a roadmap and the tools and resources with which to make for a successful outcome, and proof of success. Bilingual education is backed up only by a bunch of passionate people without any data, plans, or any power to make certain there's a means by which my daughter can continue this route throughout the years. I'm not feeling very confident about the approach I'm taking or about recommending it to others if I can't even get one of you to point to what seems like a simple first step: developing fluency in a common family language.

GrendelQ

SallyLou, thank you! What you've given as an example is exactly what I'm looking for: real and specific steps that could be added to a toolkit for parents who want to learn. I'd love to read: "I attended 4 classes at X community college over 2 years and achieved conversational ability, it took me X years to be truly fluent, with the help of XXX.

shel90

I am happy to teach someone ASL only if they show the same respect to it as they do with spoken English. If not, I won't waste my time.
I have mentored some hearing families with deaf children before and I am mentoring one right now. My son's deaf friend. Her parents are so motivated to learn and because of that and their daughter being in a bibi program, she is scoring 2 grade levels above her age appropriate level in concepts.

My brother and I did lag behind due to not our parents not being able to fully communicate with us but my behavior and modeling, they showed us morals. As we got older and were able to write, communication got better.

Yes, I wished they learned ASL and I am sure both of us would probably have had higher congnitive skills if they had especially me because I did not have full access to my environment both at home and at school.

My brother did at school so at least that counts for something.

I would rather pick having full access at school than having no access to both at home and at school. Having full access to both would have be sooooo freaking awesome but too late for us.

That's why I want for these deaf children. Give them BOTH..not just ASL only, not just oralism only.

Again..why complicate everything? *scratching my head*

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deafgal001

yes, it is very passionate. It never was about test scores . Nor should Spanish, French, etc. be about test scores either when one is debating if their child should learn it or not.

GrendelQ

Wirelessly posted

Shel, your friend's story is wonderful--can you pick their brains a bit to find out how they went about learning ASL and getting to where they are? I'm seeing so many discouraging stories of ASL users here whose families can't or won't sign I'm seriously losing faith that it's possible except in rare cases.

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sallylou

QrendelQ, I'm fortunate to live in an urban area near a church deaf center. Not everyone is so lucky. Practicing online helps when no one is readily available in real life.

Some of the state deaf schools offer a kind of ASL boot-camp for parents in the summer. I'm sure that there are other immersion ASL programs. Again, people must be fortunate enough to be in a position to take time off and travel if this option isn't available locally. Family support systems are very important.

If there are no resources available where I lived, I would consider moving. We did move once to get a more appropriate school for my child (not hearing-related) and that worked out well. I would like to relocate to a better place in the future. For now, I'm stuck where I am until the kids get older.

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GrendelQ

Wirelessly posted

Not about test scores. Just tell me what steps you took to become fluent. And how your family became fluent.

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deafgal001

the usual, motivation. This apply to my deaf oral sister and her hearing CODA.

GrendelQ

Wirelessly posted

No, really deafgal : did you learn solely through YouTube, if so, what types of videos? Did you take courses? How many, where? Learn in the home from parents? When did you start and how long until you were truly fluent?

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deafgal001

They won't sign because they make excuses, they are just not interested. But sometimes I enable them not to learn it when I use my voice. I still think if public school just often at least 15 minutes of ASL classes starting Kindergarten to 12th, then it will be easier to learn again if they are rusty later.

It doesn't help when people criticize ASL and deaf community either.

deafgal001

I am not fluent... I'm learning. My sister is fluent because she have deaf friends and she took ASL from her local community classes (not college, just classes at the recreation centers and such)

I'm taking WestwoodASL (plus, I like it because he doesn't use his voice... I'll be lost if people start using their voice to teach -- I'm deaf, that's why) because my local community college is charging about $100 per credit, and one semster of ASL is 3 (or 4?) credits and I don't have that kind of money. I use youtube and video like Keith Wann on Vimeo, or ASLRocks.net (of course, they will talk about stuffs you don't like). to practice with. I even use DCMP.org

shel90

I started learning ASL at 25 years old by accident. I didn't think I needed it. When I became fluent in it, I realized how restricted I was from my environment. We just don't want that for deaf children. I still see children with CIs who struggle with having access using only oralism. Yes, many have good speech skills but the receptive part was always an issue. With ASL, it won't ever be an issue.

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shel90

I learned it through classes and then years later from immersion..same thing with the hearing families whom I know.

My hearing hubby didn't know any ASL when we first met in 2002...he became fluent by socializing despite being in an hearing environment all day 5 days a week. He is now fluent. Ask those ADers who have met him in real life. He didn't learn thru any classes, vidoes, nor books. Nothing.

All of us had one common factor....motivation and a desire to learn.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

posts from hell

I am telling you... at least 80% of the students are very easy to communicate with after ASL 2 at University of Colorado. That is only 6 months. Throw some socials, and serious passion in then you're set.

I've seen people become REALLY FLUENT, and I take that seriously... in three months.

So, It can be done. From the time the child is identified as a deaf child... They will pick up the language fast, the parents tend to be a bit slower. But the upside: They will learn it for the long duration, so will the parents.

If it takes you four years to be as fluent as you want to be... Usually the child is discovered as deaf at the age of 1... That means the child will be 5. You think you will be discussing complex issues? I mean... Menstrual cycles dont come till the kid's 12..

Just saying you do have the time. I don't accept that kind of BS excuse.

My mom is not exactly fluent in ASL... But I can discuss really deep shit with my mom. She signs in english code because thats what she learned almost 30 years ago and used for 18 while I lived with her. It's ingrained. I can sign ASL to her, and she will understand perfectly fine.

posts from hell

Are you SURE you don't want me to go ahead and try a few minutes to find you a mentor?

posts from hell

My mom also told me... When we went to the summer camp at the deaf school there was a 12 year old girl that was oral only...(I was 7 at the time) She said that the girl was very isolated at first, but in the two weeks we were there... The girl blossomed overnight literally and was signing with joy.

That girl eventually went to the school. And is one of the bigger leaders in the deaf community these days.

GrendelQ

Seriously, the only excuses I'm seeing here are from ASL users who don't mind that the people they love didn't become fluent in their primary language. Looks like everyone else is either fluent or is working hard to become so. I can't imagine being the parent to a child whose primary language is ASL, and not being as fluent or moreso than that child. I was teaching her, but now I believe my 4 YO is more at ease with it than I am. I may know a few more words, but she can truly converse in ASL, while I stumble and freeze when signing with a native signer.

And yet, fluency in ASL requires just 3 months, 2 basic classes and a bunch of YT/socializing.

So, why the disconnect, why is there a perception that mastery of ASL is such an easy achievement and yet so many of us on this board whose loved ones (or many of us ourselves) aren't fluent in ASL?

Why are Shel, her husband, Faire Jour, and SallyLou fluent in ASL and why aren't Deafgal or I or your mother or Frisky Feline's or Sequoias folks fluent in ASL already?

With other languages, I found that spending time in the country with native speakers without the opportunity to fall back on my native language was key to making the transition from only being able to read/write the language vs becoming conversational, comfortable. I think that's what my daughter experiences at school. I think that being deaf provides something of an immersive environment, in that you don't then have the familiar language to fall back into. I'm wondering if there's a way to achieve that as a hearing adult, without immersion (quitting the job, leaving home with backpack and a passport ).

faire_jour

I agree with you! It is COMPLETELY unacceptable for a parent too not use the language their child uses. I think that concern, of not having a shared language, is one of the things that attracts people to spoken language. Not laziness, but wanting to truly be able to converse, explain, and teach their child.

I'm passably fluent. I passed my state interpreting test. BUT, I do not feel like I know enough. How did we learn? I enrolled full time in an interpreting program when my daughter went into preschool. I spent two full years taking classes (and 4 basic classes BEFORE entering the interpreting program). We also FULLY lived in the Deaf community. We attend a Deaf church every Sunday and there are no voice interpreters, so, sink or swim! We also spent every available minute with Deaf people and at events. We had play dates and parties with the Deaf of Deaf kids from her school.

So, I think it is completely unacceptable for a parent of an ASL user to NOT use ASL. BUT, if the child isn't using ASL, the parent may not need to currently be fluent.

posts from hell

I already told you exactly why my mom isnt fluent in ASL. If she started off with ASL she would be fluent a long time ago.

GrendelQ

Not sure I follow, I think that's exactly the scenario I'm interested in: those who started with English and yet were able to become fluent in ASL in a few months. Or not. Why would having a background in SEE be anything but a leg up in developing ASL? You've got the vocabulary, it's just a matter of learning the grammar, right?

GrendelQ

Wow FJ! Thanks. I had gotten the impression you'd made that sort of intensive commitment to the language from your blog. That's what I'd aspire to achieve -- but what a serious time commitment and change of venue/life! [and no, I'm not making an excuse! I'm just being realistic about what this will involve] What you've done is just amazing, exemplary! (Lucky little girl you have!)

The sink or swim element seems key to turning the corner into fluency. The basic courses I've taken just haven't gotten either my husband nor me anywhere near where we ought to be at this stage of Li's development and I don't want to abdicate the role every parent should have in a child's learning to her school just because my daughter is deaf. We've inadvertently shifted towards utilizing spoken language at home now that she's passing our abilities to communicate at an appropriate level in ASL, and I see a serious danger in both dumbing down our language to what we know n ASL as well as in compartmentalizing her languages into school vs. home. So I'm looking for some best practices in dispensing with the dabbling, getting beyond the basic levels and moving into truly knowing the language. I'm finding that even some of our Deaf ASL instructors' vocabulary is limited and want Li to have exposure to the full language, not ASL-lite.

posts from hell

not really.. you still have the habit of saying things the old ways. SEE is completely different than ASL, you still would have to throw most of it out to be honest.

The ones I have seen become completely fluent lived with deaf people 24/7. Not for the normal working person.

I have taught a drunk guy sign language throughout a year.. and he is pretty good at it right now.. And that was only Tuesdays. He's one of the slower learners of sign language. (another example)

It's just that I have seen wayy too much cases where people can gain so much signing skills in short time and its being doubted.... and it being twisted into an issue where "fluency" comes in place...

Well... I guess all I can say.. I can discuss organic chemistry and advanced math with my mother... That is pretty complicated and she would be able to help me out.. She is not fluent in ASL, however she is fluent with her own language that she has with me. There's always the "home sign language" where everyone in the family understands on the same level.

If you don't want to use ASL just because youre not comfortable with being fluent in it... well..
The way I see it:
1.) There's just wayyy too many people that I've witnessed with my own eyes that develops great ASL skills in short time. "Short time" here is 2 years or less.
2.) If you're denying the child ASL... It pains my heart because of the "in between worlds syndrome" which does nothing but hurt deaf people that we've seen OFTENTIMES in this forum, and especially this thread.

these two reasons is why I am passionate about this topic of discussion.

Just think: If ASL was an official language of the country (like kenya) all students will be able to learn it in the USA.. Then in the future there will be no need of CI, Interpreters, and best of all, LESS oppression and more understanding.

This kind of BS is happening because of the ideology in america which is you have to hear and speak to succeed. There's WAYYYY too ****ing many stupid people who think deaf people cant do shit. Hence the 70% unemployment rate in the deaf/oraldeaf world.

I'm done here. no need to repeat myself over and over and over and over..

posts from hell

Inadvertently shifted? Since she exceeded you guys in one language it's time to stop? Hmmm...

Inadvertently shifting... hmm I gotta use that sometimes when I'm feeling lazy..

posts from hell

oh fkin nevermind.. i'll stop.. i just can't continue posting in here..

deafgal001

Why use me? I just started learning. Just like how SallyLou started somewhere. There is a deaf club/meet I can go to as well, but I choose not to go (long story). There is a deaf church I can go to instead if I can just force myself to go to it (I hated the fact that it is in the afternoon for 3 hours instead of having it in the morning so that's why I struggle to go).

You are not going to gain fluency if you don't have the passion and love for ASL. Deaf people go to deaf nation, deaf camp, etc. They meet new deaf friends. They really get themselves out there. Do hearing parents go to and do these things? It seem to me they tend to avoid these things.

shel90

I really believe about the idealogy about America. One must hear to be successful.

__________________
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shel90

I wish I can inadvertently shift to ASL when it comes to my family because spoken English is just too much work and not natural for me.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous