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Unread 01-18-2009, 01:57 PM   #661 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Jiro;1220452]that is a huge hindsight you have there. Don't you know that a quite significant portion of schools' fund are from alumni donations? Don't you know that most of scholarships are from donations as specified by alumni or donors? Beside - how do private school students bring in more money? Tuition price is same for every single student unless you're talking about some rich fathers donating million dollars for new facility.
[QUOTE]

EXACTLY. Who is more likely to make a donation? An alumni with an already rich family or an alumni who has a poor family? In my private school, the richer parents donate to the school ALL THE TIME. I know because you can see the minimum amount they have donated, based on their membership status. Schools obviously accept the smarter, education based kids but also need the richer (and HOPEFULLY smart) kids to offset the costs.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:02 PM   #662 (permalink)
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The arguement will be moot when you show how to successful teach a child to use residual hearing in a voice off enviroment. If you don't use it, or expose a child to it, they will never learn, just like anything else.
Ever hear of ambient noise? It occurs in a voice off environment, too.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:04 PM   #663 (permalink)
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There are limits to everything.
Yep, including the depth of mommy and daddy's pocketbook. Particularly in these uncertain times.

But tuition costs are tuition costs. The school really doesn't give a fig who pays them...just that they get paid.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:05 PM   #664 (permalink)
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yes - just because you and i turned out to be ok (deafies attending hearing schools) don't mean it's same happy endings for MAJORITY. That's the point. It's not even a 50-50 chance for us. We just happened to be very very very lucky by a small stroke of luck and that's not even comforting thing to know. BiBi Program at deaf schools can give the majority a lot better than 50-50 chance.

Equal Opportunity, remember? Deafies will get same opportunity as Hearies. There ain't no equal opportunity for deafies at hearing school with oral approach. It's a constant struggle.
Yes I understand. However, it seems like it's assumed that because BiBi program seem to work for most deaf people, therefore BiBi program must bring out the BEST in all of them. Evidently, a few people here believe that I'd do better in a BiBi program, and maybe Im lying to myself, but I personally think I wouldn't. Would you? Do you think you'd be at a better place if you were in a BiBi program?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:05 PM   #665 (permalink)
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EXACTLY. Who is more likely to make a donation? An alumni with an already rich family or an alumni who has a poor family? In my private school, the richer parents donate to the school ALL THE TIME. I know because you can see the minimum amount they have donated, based on their membership status. Schools obviously accept the smarter, education based kids but also need the richer (and HOPEFULLY smart) kids to offset the costs.
Corruption runs rampant these days. Organized mob crime, white collared crimes, pink collared crimes.
And you know what's funny, how much money they earned outside of graduation is entirely up to how much luck they either got or how much effort they put into the world.
Joe and John both graduated of a BS in EE (electrical engineering), Joe got lucky and became a head of Edison International. John didn't get as lucky and now works as a small time electrician for a local 500 employee company. Joe makes 200K/year. John does 50k/year.

Joe can afford to donate to UCSD, where they graduated as part of the alumni foundation. Due to his massive donations, his son, Joe Jr can now attend because of his father.

This brings me back to why I think money is an illogical factor of measuring worth between two people.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:08 PM   #666 (permalink)
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Ever hear of ambient noise? It occurs in a voice off environment, too.
Hearing enviromental sounds is not the same as learning to understand speech. They are two totally different skills.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:10 PM   #667 (permalink)
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Hearing enviromental sounds is not the same as learning to understand speech. They are two totally different skills.
Then speak to her at home. Train her residual hearing in therapy. The purpose of the classroom is to educate, not train residual hearing.

And listening to and identifying environmental sounds most certainly does train the residual hearing. It trains one to use residual hearing to identify important sounds in the environment. You make it sound like a BiBi classroom is dead silent just because it is voice off.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:11 PM   #668 (permalink)
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Then speak to her at home. Train her residual hearing in therapy. The purpose of the classroom is to educate, not train residual hearing.
Shel said she was supportive of the school helping to develop oral skills so I was asking her how.

I see that you are not supportive of that.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:15 PM   #669 (permalink)
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Then speak to her at home. Train her residual hearing in therapy. The purpose of the classroom is to educate, not train residual hearing.

And listening to and identifying environmental sounds most certainly does train the residual hearing. It trains one to use residual hearing to identify important sounds in the environment. You make it sound like a BiBi classroom is dead silent just because it is voice off.
Identifing enviromental sounds is the very lowest level of auditory discrimination. Once a child is able to do that (in my daughter's case it was before she was 18 months old) how do you develop and encourage the next levels?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:18 PM   #670 (permalink)
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Shel said she was supportive of the school helping to develop oral skills so I was asking her how.

I see that you are not supportive of that.
Then you are seeing something that is not there. Helping a child to develop oral skills is an adjunct service. It is not the classroom teacher's responsibility. The classroom teacher's responsibility is to teach the curriculum to all the students in the class.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:20 PM   #671 (permalink)
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Identifing enviromental sounds is the very lowest level of auditory discrimination. Once a child is able to do that (in my daughter's case it was before she was 18 months old) how do you develop and encourage the next levels?
Through therapy. Through exercises. Through hard work. That is why people with CI need follow up therapy. However, teaching a child to use a CI is not part of the school curriculum.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:22 PM   #672 (permalink)
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Through therapy. Through exercises. Through hard work. That is why people with CI need follow up therapy. However, teaching a child to use a CI is not part of the school curriculum.
If it's on their IEP it is.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:23 PM   #673 (permalink)
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If it's on their IEP it is.
No, it isn't. It is an adjucnt service. Quite different from a curriculum. That's why schools have SLPs and kids are taken out of class for those services. No where, any where, will you see "AVT services" written into a state curriculum.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:25 PM   #674 (permalink)
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No, it isn't. It is an adjucnt service. Quite different from a curriculum.
It can be written as a goal on the IEP, seperate from the "Other services" section. If the child is in an oral enviroment it is part of the curriculum.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:27 PM   #675 (permalink)
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It can be written as a goal on the IEP, seperate from the "Other services" section. If the child is in an oral enviroment it is part of the curriculum.
No, it isn't. It is still an adjunct service. If it were part of the curriculum, it would be taught to all children as part of the regular classroom material. Curriculum is the 3 R's. Math is a part of the curriculum. Science is a part of the curriculum. Reading is a part of the curriculum. Speech and language services are adjunct. Having it written into an IEP for one child does not make it a part of the curriculum.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:27 PM   #676 (permalink)
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No, it isn't. It is an adjucnt service. Quite different from a curriculum. That's why schools have SLPs and kids are taken out of class for those services. No where, any where, will you see "AVT services" written into a state curriculum.
i'm so confused by this thread. *sigh* is avt provided by schools or not?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:28 PM   #677 (permalink)
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i'm so confused by this thread. *sigh* is avt provided by schools or not?
It can be, as an adjunct service. But if it were part of the curriculum, all children would have to have an AVT class. It would not need to be written into an IEP. And, since most deaf schools follow the public school curriculum, all hearing kids would have to have it too, if it were part of the curriculum.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:30 PM   #678 (permalink)
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No, it isn't. It is still an adjunct service. If it were part of the curriculum, it would be taught to all children as part of the regular classroom material. Curriculum is the 3 R's. Math is a part of the curriculum. Science is a part of the curriculum. Reading is a part of the curriculum. Speech and language services are adjunct. Having it written into an IEP for one child does not make it a part of the curriculum.
So if my child has a specific goal to "Increase average length of utterence from 3.2 signs to 5", where is that to be taught?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:31 PM   #679 (permalink)
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So if my child has a specific goal to "Increase average length of utterence from 3.2 signs to 5", where is that to be taught?
In an adjunct service, if it is taught directly. But, that is a goal. Goals are achieved by the natural progression a child is expected to make when they are provided with adjunct services. Likewise, it is a goal for her, not for the entire classroom of students, nor an entire school system of students.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:36 PM   #680 (permalink)
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In an adjunct service, if it is taught directly. But, that is a goal. Goals are achieved by the natural progression a child is expected to make when they are provided with adjunct services. Likewise, it is a goal for her, not for the entire classroom of students, nor an entire school system of students.
It isn't supposed to be directly taught, that is ridiculous. What about "Katrina will learn her number from 1-20, both by route and 1:1"? Is that a service? No, it is part of adapting the curriculum to meet individual needs within the classroom.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 02:50 PM   #681 (permalink)
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It isn't supposed to be directly taught, that is ridiculous. What about "Katrina will learn her number from 1-20, both by route and 1:1"? Is that a service? No, it is part of adapting the curriculum to meet individual needs within the classroom.
Yes, it is part of the math curriculum, and the math curriculum is a direct teaching service. All children are taught math skills as part of the state mandated curriculum. All children are not taught speech as part of a state mandated curriculum. AVT is not an adaptation to the curriculum. It is an adjunct service. It is not even a teaching methodology.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:01 PM   #682 (permalink)
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Iam not a speech teacher...my certification shows that I am certified to teach deaf students math, LA, social studies, and science. Not certified in speech training here.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:09 PM   #683 (permalink)
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Iam not a speech teacher...my certification shows that I am certified to teach deaf students math, LA, social studies, and science. Not certified in speech training here.
Exactly. You are certified to teach the curriculum.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:11 PM   #684 (permalink)
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It can be, as an adjunct service. But if it were part of the curriculum, all children would have to have an AVT class. It would not need to be written into an IEP. And, since most deaf schools follow the public school curriculum, all hearing kids would have to have it too, if it were part of the curriculum.
for the explanation, jillio.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:12 PM   #685 (permalink)
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for the explanation, jillio.
You're welcome.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:14 PM   #686 (permalink)
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Exactly. You are certified to teach the curriculum.
And what about Oral Teachers of the Deaf who are also certified Auditory-Verbal Therapists?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:16 PM   #687 (permalink)
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And what about Oral Teachers of the Deaf who are also certified Auditory-Verbal Therapists?
Just because they have a certification does not make it part of the curriculum. What does the "T" in AVT stand for, faire jour?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:18 PM   #688 (permalink)
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Just because they have a certification does not make it part of the curriculum. What does the "T" in AVT stand for, faire jour?
Have you observed a lot of AV classrooms? Have you sat in on those children's IEP meetings? How are you an expert in this area?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:24 PM   #689 (permalink)
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Have you observed a lot of AV classrooms? Have you sat in on those children's IEP meetings? How are you an expert in this area?
I don't understand why you keep arguing so vociferously with these people who have many years of experience and much education in the field.

Do you think they are going to change their philosophy?
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Unread 01-18-2009, 03:29 PM   #690 (permalink)
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I don't understand why you keep arguing so vociferously with these people who have many years of experience and much education in the field.

Do you think they are going to change their philosophy?
Because they actually believe they are the one true authority on the subject, and they have a lot of people here convinced of it too.

Tell me, off hand, what are the "many years of authority" and "experience" that Jillio has in the oral education of CI users?
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