shel90

Classroom discussions are noisy arent they?


Really, if this is a joke to everyone, I really wish u can meet the numerous of kids who came to our program at ages 6, 7, 8, 9 or older not knowing much about anything and cant even make several comprehensible sentences in either languages and they dont have any conginitive disabilities cuz once they learned ASL, their language development took off but are delayed in developing literacy skills..wasting years of education.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

faire_jour

We all believe that happens. But there are kids who can succeed, they should be allowed to as well.

I think that oralist would hold up my daughter as a child who "could" have succeeded with spoken language if she had been given more chance to develop it. She is stuck at 18 month (speech) development for 3 years because she doesn't have the proper services and exposure because she is in an all signing enviroment.

shel90

My brother was in an oral only environment for the first 5 years of his life but wasnt able to develop oral skills and ended up with language delays in which he had to work hard for the rest of his childhood to overcome just like hundreds of other deaf people had to do.. is that ok so some deaf children can succeed with the oral only approach? I think that is a shame that people put speech first over literacy and language development.

U said that your daughter's literacy, academics and language level is on par for her age and u are upset that she hasnt developed speech skills yet?

In my eyes, education, language and literacy skills come first no matter what. If people want to put speech skills first, then best of luck to them.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

faire_jour

I think it is a shame that you assume that people who value speech value nothing else.

shel90

Never said nothing else...I said speech FIRST ...pls reread what I said. If I said speech and nothing else, then u have a valid point but I never said such thing. Pls do not twist my words...

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

I believe what I believe in based on the numerous of children and adults who have suffered from the oral only philosophy and my views will never change.

I have discussed this over and over again so if anyone wants to know why I believe the way I do, go into the archives in Deaf Education. I feel like a broken record now and I dont want to bore anyone else more about this topic. Thank you.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Daredevel7

It's not a joke to me, I personally have seen this language delay also. You place a LOT of importance in timely language development. As for me? I only care about the RESULTS. If they come out of school confident in making a life for themselves, GREAT.

shel90

Maybe it is cuz I am a teacher and I work with children on a daily basis.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Daredevel7

That's good. Do you see how most of them end up?

shel90

Just started teaching 6 years ago and mostly have worked with young kids. I have one student reading 2 grade levels above her age appropriate level and she can use both languages without a problem at 10 years old. People tell me that by putting a child in a classroom using ASL that this would be impossible but I see the opposite.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Daredevel7

Yea. "People" suck. They also told my mom I could never make it past 4th grade in a mainstream school.

Gotta love how people make assumptions about you without even knowing you. (especially when they say it's "IMPOSSIBLE". wtf?!)

flip

Just want to make it clear, that I am not talking about any majority.

I am talking about examples on why the effect of parents doing what they belive is best not allways is sufficent. What we need is parents that do what is right, not what they or some "experts" belive. I am not jealous on the choices parents of deaf children have to do, and I know many try more than many deaf people realize, while they follow their own heart at the same time.

Research at university level and personal stories from long time users is pointing in a direction. Federal standards, like Jiro suggested, is the way to go. It wont work overnight, but will be part of a long path, where deaf education are given space to mature, becoming something more than waste dumps in state deaf schools and mainstream programs providing social deserts.

Hear Again

i agree all deaf children (with or without ci's) should learn asl. i'm not disputing that. all i'm saying is that deaf children should also be given the opportunity to learn orally.

shel90

Can hear everything being said like hearing kids?

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

[QUOTE=flip;1218717]Just want to make it clear, that I am not talking about any majority.

I am talking about examples on why the effect of parents doing what they belive is best not allways is sufficent. What we need is parents that do what is right, not what they or some "experts" belive. I am not jealous on the choices parents of deaf children have to do, and I know many try more than many deaf people realize, while they follow their own heart at the same time.

Research at university level and personal stories from long time users is pointing in a direction. Federal standards, like Jiro suggested, is the way to go. It wont work overnight, but will be part of a long path, where deaf education are given space to mature, becoming something more than waste dumps in state deaf schools and mainstream programs providing social deserts.[/QUOTE]

That is what I would love to see...tired of seing my program as the "last resort" if all else fails...it shouldnt have be that way.


Ohhh for the others, two of my friends who went to Deaf schools all of their lives are able to carry on conversations on the phone using spoken English despite being in an predominately ASL environment..

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

And that is what I am supporting too...I have never once said no deaf child should be denied the opportunity to learn orally but I am against oralism as the only way to go for many deaf children and then later on, when it hasnt worked for them, resort to ASL. That is just not right, IMO.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Hear Again

i wholeheartedly agree.

shel90

So, all this time, we each thought we were supporting something we werent? LOL!

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jillio

It doesn't have anything to do with confidence. Parallel use of language keeps the two languages separate and complete in their use. What is confusing about sim-com is that it combines the two and what results in a less that adequate model of English, and a less than adequate model of ASL. It is not a correct model of any language.

But,hey, you don't have to take my word for it. Ask the linguists and the cognitive psychologists, as well as the developmental psychologists.

Possible, but not likely.

shel90

It was from my linguistics classes that I learned about these kinds of issues in Deaf education regarding language...it was an eye opener.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Hear Again

i guess so!

Daredevel7

You're talking about sim-com which is a by product of TC, not necessarily a policy standard for TC. I agree with what you said above about sim-com having a poor model/standard, but when people started doing programs of TC, I don't think that they had this in mind. TC is a noble idea, however the consequences for some of the people who came out of TC programs were less than ideal due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm saying that this could very well happen to some people in BiBi programs. Shel said it started in the 90s, that's new to me because it takes at least a decade to develop and get a significant number of people into those programs, and then another decade to see the studies of long term effects of being in a BiBi program.

Anyway, I'm not against BiBi at all of course and we do need a Deaf Education standard and so far I see that BiBi seems to be the best.

jillio

Yes, exactly.

jillio

I personally have never observed a TC program that didn't employ sim-com. The whole philosophy of TC is to offer everything available at all times.

But BiBi programs in other countries are much older and should be serving as our model.

shel90

Look at the BiBi Deaf education programs in Sweden..very successful. We are using them as a model.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

Ooops! Jillio, we posted the same thing at the same time...

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jillio

Again!

Have you ever observed a TC program that did not use Sim-Com?

shel90

I have observed several...trying to remember..the one that I worked at as an aide, the teacher believed in oralism but she had several deaf students who couldnt lip read so she would speak but sign a little..it was weird but all 13 kids couldnt understand her and kept asking me what did she say so I would sign with voice off for those who had no oral skills and use my oral skills for those who didnt know sign language at all. It was nuts.

The other programs...I couldnt really hear if the teachers were using their voices but they would sign using SEE and it was all jumbled..not constistent..I had to work hard not to fall asleep and many of the kids were fidgeting and frustrated. I'll bet that they were bored out of their minds..poor kids.

In one program, one teacher believed in the BiBi approach and even though the program called itself TC, she applied the BiBi model in the classroom and I kept asking her what is BiBi? I had no clue what she was talking about...looking back...I am like "duh!!!" .

At least kids who have ASL terps in mainstreamed settings are getting the appropriate model of languages IF the terp is certified and fluent in ASL which in several cases, arent. I have seen terps who are people who have taken maybe two or so ASL classes become educational terps which just as bad.

Then, there are kids like me who sit in a classroom missing out 90% of what is being said becuase the experts assumed because they speak so well, that they could hear as well...very misleading.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jillio

This is too true!

And thanks for answering. The programs I have observed were never any sign without voice, and often no sign at all except for a word or two in the sentence.

shel90

That was what I meant with that teacher whom I worked for in that TC program in Phx. She kept telling me that she couldnt believe that the kids do "this thing" with their hands with an ugly look on her face. Also she would tell the kids who didnt have oral skills to look at me and if they wanted to be like me, stop fooling around. I was shocked cuz I had just graduated with my BA from Special Ed and was thinking of pursuing my Master's in Deaf ed so I wanted to work in a Deaf ed program before enrolling ...I almost didnt pursue it cuz of her and that program...I was appalled by how it was run. Thanks to my deaf brother who told me that not all deaf ed programs were that poorly run. He was right...whew!

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous