District files appeal against deaf student - Page 8

jazzy · 07-04-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Hi all,
I wanted to give you briefly my background. As I mention before I have 2deaf oral children and I am an oral teacher of deaf. What I didn't mention is that I did not get my college degrees until after I had my children. I needed to make sense of why I was given 2 deaf children. I wanted to help other parents who were going to go through what we went through. I went to college when my son was in kindergarten I arranged my schedule around theirs. My total focus in college was on deafness. All of my projects were always focus on deafness both oral and signing. I have a master's in special education. I have received my teacher training at John Tracy Clinic.
I really love John Tracy Clini's philosphy not because they are oral but because of required parent involvement. I have not seen a program that demads so much parent involvement as John Tracy Clinic. I have seen both gooor oral programs and sign programs out here but never have seen one with such huge parent requirement.
When my children were first diagnosis, I had no idea what to do. I begin to hear things like my kids wouldn't read above a 3 or 4th grade level. This was just not acceptable to me. I felt powerless and as I began my parent classes at John Tracy I learn about the laws that affect deafness and more importantly I learned that I would make the biggest difference in my children's lives and for that I will always have a special place in my heart for John Tracy.
AGAIN I will always be greatful to John Tracy not because of the oral but because of the education they gave me as a parent and teacher.

John Tracy has also changed from where they started. I saw it alot of it when my children where there. If a child was not progressing orally, they would tell the parents and give them a chance to look for other programs and if the parents wasn't ready change they did tell parents they had certain amount of time but their child needed to be in another program and they couldn't stay at John Tracy.

Time has change, I guess. John Tracy had lied to my parents about me so I never really trusted them. I would never forgave them for damaged me in first place. I am glad ur kids are doing great but they should never be shame of being who they are.

jackiesolorzano · 07-04-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Time has change, I guess. John Tracy had lied to my parents about me so I never really trusted them. I would never forgave them for damaged me in first place. I am glad ur kids are doing great but they should never be shame of being who they are.

I am not sure who old you are but I have heard some horror stories from the beginning days at John Tracy. I just will always be greatful for the education they gave me.
My kids are proud of who they are. I always make sure that they know how proud my husband and I are of.
They know who they are, first teenagers, then deaf teenagers, and then deaf oral teenagers

jazzy · 07-04-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I am not sure who old you are but I have heard some horror stories from the beginning days at John Tracy. I just will always be greatful for the education they gave me.
My kids are proud of who they are. I always make sure that they know how proud my husband and I are of.
They know who they are, first teenagers, then deaf teenagers, and then deaf oral teenagers

Wow u had heard horror stories from them. I am older than u I guess if u have teenagers. I never went school there except I went there to have my hearing test which it was free. They told my parents that I was deaf and mentally retarded. Of coursse I was not mentally retarded, need time to heal from major illness. U have to understand something, when John Tracy told my parents what were best for me back then that oral was must, sign language was bad. So they believed them and send me to oral program for few years. During two years time with this oral teacher, she abused me and I could not tell my parents about her because I could not communicate with my parents, only silence. I had problem with attention which I could not sit still and watch her lips for long time so I looked away from her then she came to me and shook my head and hurt me. Finally my parents fought school and changed it to TC which it was best thing ever happen to me. I learned right away after TC. Years later I met this oral teacher again , my fear was so bad and I shut myself down and not say one voice to her at all. U know what she told me after I refused to use my voice with her " What a shame on you for not being taling" That was when I decided I would never be a teacher for the deaf and blind. It was my first goal to be a school teacher now after her words to me. I would never do that to any deaf child ever so I decided to leave college and never return. I read you are a teacher and hope u are very good with those children. This is way off subject from CART to this. Oops. It was good reading. Good luck with your kids.

jackiesolorzano · 07-04-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Wow u had heard horror stories from them. I am older than u I guess if u have teenagers. I never went school there except I went there to have my hearing test which it was free. They told my parents that I was deaf and mentally retarded. Of coursse I was not mentally retarded, need time to heal from major illness. U have to understand something, when John Tracy told my parents what were best for me back then that oral was must, sign language was bad. So they believed them and send me to oral program for few years. During two years time with this oral teacher, she abused me and I could not tell my parents about her because I could not communicate with my parents, only silence. I had problem with attention which I could not sit still and watch her lips for long time so I looked away from her then she came to me and shook my head and hurt me. Finally my parents fought school and changed it to TC which it was best thing ever happen to me. I learned right away after TC. Years later I met this oral teacher again , my fear was so bad and I shut myself down and not say one voice to her at all. U know what she told me after I refused to use my voice with her " What a shame on you for not being taling" That was when I decided I would never be a teacher for the deaf and blind. It was my first goal to be a school teacher now after her words to me. I would never do that to any deaf child ever so I decided to leave college and never return. I read you are a teacher and hope u are very good with those children. This is way off subject from CART to this. Oops. It was good reading. Good luck with your kids.

As a parent I would say you should be a teacher so that what happen to you will not happent again.
Since I have seen successful oral and signing kids, it really doesn't matter to me, what road a family takes as long as it is an inform decision.
The reason I want my children to be oral is so that they more opportunites. I knew they can learn everything through but I also knew if they had all the knowledge and were oral, they would have better opportunities.
I have met some bad teachers and some teachers that need to retire.
I think I am different
I love working with young children and their families.
It is just a fun age.
You need to go back to school and show that teacher that you can do it and ask CART

**shel90** · 07-04-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I would love to see that study. Honestly I have not seen any profoundly deaf children that were toddlers that had both oral and signing at the same and the child had good oral skills. I have met many people like yourself that have oral skills and were very fluent in sign language but because like you they were raised orally and then learn sign language as teenagers or adults. I would love to read the study. The other problem I see with TC programs out here by us and I have observe many programs is that they say they use oral language and sign language together at the same time but I have not seen a program like that yet. Generally what happens is that there a lot more signing done by the teachers, aides, and student then oral language. It is not a balance program, I have also seen classes that say they are TC but there is no oral language in the program

I will find it. I just am so against in putting any deaf children at risk for being delayed in language and since u stated that around kindergarten is when u know whether to switch to signing or not. I think that is way tooo long cuz that's 5 years of being language deprived for the children. Nope..I wont be open minded about that issue at all. I can be open minded about the oral approach working for some deaf children and putting them in oral only education but during their formative years for language development, nope. Nothing personal...I am thinking of the childrens' needs ..not about u, not about me, not about Deaf or Hearing culture...it is about providing full access to language for all deaf/hoh children to ensure that they will be ready to learn reading and writing at 5 years old instead of having them learn a new language at 5 years old and putting teaching reading and writing on hold until they become fluent in sign language.

**shel90** · 07-04-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Wow u had heard horror stories from them. I am older than u I guess if u have teenagers. I never went school there except I went there to have my hearing test which it was free. They told my parents that I was deaf and mentally retarded. Of coursse I was not mentally retarded, need time to heal from major illness. U have to understand something, when John Tracy told my parents what were best for me back then that oral was must, sign language was bad. So they believed them and send me to oral program for few years. During two years time with this oral teacher, she abused me and I could not tell my parents about her because I could not communicate with my parents, only silence. I had problem with attention which I could not sit still and watch her lips for long time so I looked away from her then she came to me and shook my head and hurt me. Finally my parents fought school and changed it to TC which it was best thing ever happen to me. I learned right away after TC. Years later I met this oral teacher again , my fear was so bad and I shut myself down and not say one voice to her at all. U know what she told me after I refused to use my voice with her " What a shame on you for not being taling" That was when I decided I would never be a teacher for the deaf and blind. It was my first goal to be a school teacher now after her words to me. I would never do that to any deaf child ever so I decided to leave college and never return. I read you are a teacher and hope u are very good with those children. This is way off subject from CART to this. Oops. It was good reading. Good luck with your kids.

John Tracy is against sign language or is has that changed now? The oral program that I was placed in when I was a toddler was against sign language and they told my parents that by teaching me sign language will be a detriment to my academic progress so that scared my parents shitless. I think that's f*(#cked up of them to do that.

That teacher who said that to u should be condemned! After a year at Gallaudet, I went back to AZ to visit my family and I contacted my old deaf ed teacher for lunch. We went out for lunch and I was telling her about how much I love Gallaudet and how wonderful it was that everyone signs and I dont miss out on anything. U know what she said? She said that she can tell that signing is making my speech skills deteriorate...right there, I felt sick to my stomach. Instead of being happy for me that I finally found happiness in my life after a lifetime of being frustrated, angry, jealous, and miserable of not being able to hear, she has to criticize my speech skills. Since then, I havent and I refuse to contact her. I thought she was cool but that was a big turn off for me. Been 6 years..she tried contacting me later on but I was going thru an anger stage about being denying sign language all my life. Boy, I had a blowout with my mom during that anger stage. It wasnt easy going thru that realizing how much I missed out all my life when it didnt have to be that way.

I am sorry Jazzy that u had a horrible experience there and I am sorry that what that teacher said turned u off about becoming a teacher for deaf ed.

deafdyke · 07-04-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Is it possible because she is in an oral environment, and has not been exposed at all to deaf culture, that she has developed a sort of self destructive oralist attitude toward herself? After all, if she has been given the message that oral is superior to sign, then she would rebel against sign for fear that it would place her in that inferior category. Please reread some of shel's posts on the consequences of an oral environment and the message that it provides.

Excellent point! Yes, oralists may not be as extreme as they used to be, but still..........the unspoken attitude is that things like Sign are very stigmatized as being "speshal needs" .............A lot of the teens and kids pick up on that. All teens idoloize the American suburban middle class whitebread existance. I mean god, who would want to be "different?"
Unfortunatly, I don't think you will be able to get CART, since your daughter is doing so well even without it. Ever hear of the Rowley case? That was a case where the student was doing really well However, her parents thought she could do much better with a 'terp. They sued the school district, but lost the case. The judge in the case said that the law did not streach to provide complete and total equality for dhh kids.
Jackie, the attitude is that mainstreaming is better then self contained classes or special schools. BUT most dhh kids ARE mainstreamed. Wouldn't acheivement levels have risen?
But I have to say that I think mainstreaming is overrated, especially since the gross majority of teachers, including sped teachers have NO CLUE whatsoever about teaching kids like us. We are lumped into the "Ummmm who's President Bush? type of dumbasses who are LEGION in sped!

And Jackie, I do know that a lot of parents chose oral so that their kids won't have to depend on a 'terp or depend on writing notes. That's a noble goal........but how many oral kids get signed off of speech therapy b/c they absolutly positively don't need it any more? How many oral kids have mastered speech on the level of a native hearing person? Did you know its fairly common for oral kids to be able to articualte, but still make syntax errors like "How many spiders have legs?" for "how many legs do spiders have?" Is their vocabulary and verbal IQ at the same level of a hearing person? Oral kids don't nessarily have higher acheivement levels then Sign kids.........it just seems that way b/c a lot of oral families tend to be VERY VERY hyperinvolved. (the type who basicly do therapy 24/7)
I think it rocks that you're so openminded. But I do think that more pro oralists need to realize that they should equipt kids with a full toolbox, rather then just exclusively speech.
Isn't it better to have a FULL toolbox, where the kids can CHOOSE (without bias) which tools they want to use? Most oralists tend to be very audist. Some of them are openminded........."equipt the kid with choices..let the kid chose." I actually know of a few kids who were raised under a full toolbox philosophy and *gasp* CHOSE sign!
But why according to oralist philosophy should Sign be a last resort sort of thing?
The gross majority of dhh kids are strongly visual learners.........Why is it that oralists are so obessed with concentrating on ameiorating speech, speech and even more speech? Maybe more dhh kids could really do great things if they didn't have to expend so much energy on speech!

deafdyke · 07-04-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Is it possible because she is in an oral environment, and has not been exposed at all to deaf culture, that she has developed a sort of self destructive oralist attitude toward herself? After all, if she has been given the message that oral is superior to sign, then she would rebel against sign for fear that it would place her in that inferior category. Please reread some of shel's posts on the consequences of an oral environment and the message that it provides.

Excellent point! Yes, oralists may not be as extreme as they used to be, but still..........the unspoken attitude is that things like Sign are very stigmatized as being "speshal needs" .............A lot of the teens and kids pick up on that. All teens idoloize the American suburban middle class whitebread existance. I mean god, who would want to be "different?"
Unfortunatly, I don't think you will be able to get CART, since your daughter is doing so well even without it. Ever hear of the Rowley case? That was a case where the student was doing really well However, her parents thought she could do much better with a 'terp. They sued the school district, but lost the case. The judge in the case said that the law did not streach to provide complete and total equality for dhh kids.
Jackie, the attitude is that mainstreaming is better then self contained classes or special schools. BUT most dhh kids ARE mainstreamed. Wouldn't acheivement levels have risen?
But I have to say that I think mainstreaming is overrated, especially since the gross majority of teachers, including sped teachers have NO CLUE whatsoever about teaching kids like us. We are lumped into the "Ummmm who's President Bush? type of dumbasses who are LEGION in sped!

And Jackie, I do know that a lot of parents chose oral so that their kids won't have to depend on a 'terp or depend on writing notes. That's a noble goal........but how many oral kids get signed off of speech therapy b/c they absolutly positively don't need it any more? How many oral kids have mastered speech on the level of a native hearing person? Did you know its fairly common for oral kids to be able to articualte, but still make syntax errors like "How many spiders have legs?" for "how many legs do spiders have?" Is their vocabulary and verbal IQ at the same level of a hearing person? Oral kids don't nessarily have higher acheivement levels then Sign kids.........it just seems that way b/c a lot of oral families tend to be VERY VERY hyperinvolved. (the type who basicly do therapy 24/7)
I think it rocks that you're so openminded. But I do think that more pro oralists need to realize that they should equipt kids with a full toolbox, rather then just exclusively speech.
Isn't it better to have a FULL toolbox, where the kids can CHOOSE (without bias) which tools they want to use? Most oralists tend to be very audist. Some of them are openminded........."equipt the kid with choices..let the kid chose." I actually know of a few kids who were raised under a full toolbox philosophy and *gasp* CHOSE sign!
But why according to oralist philosophy should Sign be a last resort sort of thing?
The gross majority of dhh kids are strongly visual learners.........Why is it that oralists are so obessed with concentrating on ameiorating speech, speech and even more speech? Maybe more dhh kids could really do great things if they didn't have to expend so much energy on speech!

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

As this case drags on and on via the appeals process; adults bickering, etc is time taken away from that child's development.

Excellent point, tousi!

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I have a couple of questions for you first what state are you in. Second, of the deaf children you have seen that have a profound hearing loss and have been educated in a bi-bi approach, how many of these people have good oral skills where they can go out in the hearing community and be able to communicate with hearing people without having to write notes. How many of these people can have jobs in the hearing world without having an interpeter with them.

# 1: Ohio

# 2: Numerous

# 3 The majority.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Again you are judging the road that we have taken. I can accept that you have taken the signing road with your child, it was your choice, why can't you accept it that this is the road we have taken and we are happy with our decisions. I completely understand that oral is not right for everyone and that some parents kept their children too long on the oral path when they should change. She has accept who she is. She is young deaf teenager that was raised orally. She knows that if she wants to drop her voice she can do it at anytime with our blessing if that is what she wants. A couple of her deaf friends that go to high school with other deaf have told me that they wish they could talk like Samantha. It is a personal and we need to respect other peoples choices.

Wow, here comes the defensiveness of the oral philosophy again. I am not judging you and in no way did my post imply that I was. I was expressing the viewpoint that I did not see sign as forcing a child to change their identity, but simply to accept their identity. Where do you see this as judgemental. And you may be happy with your decisions, but your contradictory statements continue to demonstrate that your children are perhaps not as successful on all levels as you would like to believe they are.

You say that your daughter can drop her voice at any time with your support? And how would she do that and still be able to communicate with her family? You have placed her in a position of not being able to communicate with you except on your terms--oral. That, in effect, leaves her with no choice at all.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I would be totally fine if the school would provided an interpeter and CART. CART being my first choice. Because first sign language is not my daughter's first language and second it would be a huge benefit to have a transcript of every word being said in class.

Amnd the very reasons you have just cited is the reason that your daughter is having problems with her services.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Jillio,
I want to explain partly why my daughter does not want me to sign with her. I am first generation American. My dad was from Europe and my mom is from Mexico. Spanish and Hungarian was my first language. I actually like to call myself a Hungry Mexican. My husband was born and raised in Central America. He came to his country as a teenager.
When we found out the kids were deaf, the doctors told us that we shouldn't speak two language around them. So we stop speaking Spanish. I would not allow anyone to speak Spanish in my home. It was kind of wierd because it was strange to hear English coming out of my mom's mouth. She had a good command of English but growing up she always spoke to me in Spanish and I answered in English. When I was young it was not acceptable to speak Spanish unlike it is today where in my area everyone speaks Spanish. not really in my city but in our county we have many spanish speaking communities
ABout 5 years once my kids had a solid foundation in spoken English we begin to speak Spanish in our home. But with my husband I only English unless we are upset or what to say something that I did not want my children to understand. So my daughter says that's what she wants, she at times doesn't want me to know what she is telling her friends. My command of sign language when her friend are signing is that I understand about 70%. I think at times when she is telling them secrets she doesn't want me to know. She says well you speak Spanish to dad when you don't want me to understand.

The other thing I want to mention is that we are very lucky where we live. My daughter can immerse herself in the oral world or in the Deaf culture if she wants.

Because of my background and culture I do not want them to move away to college so this is why we live where we live. Me wanting them to stay has nothing to do with their deafnes but everything to so with my background and culture. I would rather move away to small city where house prices are not so expsensive. Our cost of living in southern California is awful.
But in our city we are about 10 minutes away from MTSAC which is a community collge has a great program for kids that are deaf. They have best program around for interpeters to become interpeters. Plus the person in charge of the kids with disabilities is deaf herself. That is if she wants to start at a community college.
If she wants to go directly to a 4 year college we have Cal State Nortridge about 35 minutes away from our home, which has an amazing deaf studies program.
If she wants a strictly hearing college we have about 15 colleges within 30 minutes of our home.
I have told my children over and over they do not have an option of going to college. They will go. Their options are where they will go and what they will study.

Reread your post, please. I understand that perhaps you come from a different cultural background, and I have a strong understanding of the effect that has on behaviors that may be considered different fromthe majority. I also see that you are very controlling with your children from what you have stated. You give them options with the one hand, and then go about limiting the way in which they can achieve. You tell them they have no choice-they will go to college. Then rather than saying, but you may attend the college of your choice, you say, but no farther than an hour from home because I still want to be able to contol your life and your decisions.
Obviously, believing in the oral philosophy is very natural for you, because it, as well, is about taking away the deaf individual's autonomy.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I wonder if Shel had accomphish all she had just using oral language would you also admire as much.
I also think Shel it is great everything Shel has been able to do but I would go a next further say it would great if had done it all in just by using her oral skills or just be using ASL or using a combination of both.

Obviously, you haven't been reading the posts. Shel was raised oral. She choose to become bilingual after reaching college age, and discovering that the oral approach had left her lacking in many respects.

And yes, I would admire her just as much, as what I admire is not her ability to speak or her abiltiy to sign, but her teaching philosophy and her concern for deaf children. She is a wonderful caring person, an excellennt teacher, and a free thinking, open minded individual. Her communication method has nothing to do with that. Her ability to speak, and her ability to sign, are of no consequence tothe person she is and the success she has achieved. You should stop equating communication choice with value of the person.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

You are right my daughter has had some difficulty but most students at some point in their educational career have had some sort of trouble. That is where I get involved and make sure to work out these areas. Just because you are having problems doesn't mean you should abandon our goals.
I really think that having CART will take care of most of these problems but if it doesn't then I am not open to find other ways to solution my daughter areas of difficult. Are you open finding solutions or you so set that your way is the right and only way? I am not like I am open to things.

It is too late for the use of CART to take care of linguistic delay. CART is very useful, but only if a student meets all of the criteria for being able to utilize it. Don't get me wrong--I recommend CART for a couple of deaf students who are postlingually deafened and have a great command and ability to use spoken and written English. I recommend it as a backup for a student with a CI that is still very sign based, but also have an interpreter in class so that the transcript makes since becasue he has gotten concept from the lecture via interpretation. I also recommend its use for students with CP, and/or dyslexia. And yes, finding solution happens to be my profession. However, the person seeking solutions has to be open minded enough and willing toadmit that what is currently being done isn't working, or those solutions go to waste.

Silentwolfdog · 07-05-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I will find it. I just am so against in putting any deaf children at risk for being delayed in language and since u stated that around kindergarten is when u know whether to switch to signing or not. I think that is way tooo long cuz that's 5 years of being language deprived for the children. Nope..I wont be open minded about that issue at all. I can be open minded about the oral approach working for some deaf children and putting them in oral only education but during their formative years for language development, nope. Nothing personal...I am thinking of the childrens' needs ..not about u, not about me, not about Deaf or Hearing culture...it is about providing full access to language for all deaf/hoh children to ensure that they will be ready to learn reading and writing at 5 years old instead of having them learn a new language at 5 years old and putting teaching reading and writing on hold until they become fluent in sign language.

I got to agree with you there. That's way too late. That's why even if students came to my deaf school while they are 5 years old and learn and used sign language all those years at deaf school. They are still behind on reading and writing, even though they are at deaf school from the beginning. It's those 5 years that made a difference.

I guess it's like oral method is a risky gamble.

I have not heard from her, about what happened to kids who failed oral at that program you used. Where are they? What happened to them? Are they behind on language because of those missed years?

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I am sure there lots of kids that were orally that were not successful but again I think it goes back to the parents and they approach things and are they fully informed of all the different ways, which in my case I know I was can't speak for other parents

What has that got to do with Bi-Bi education?

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

From what I have read of what you say you are bias towards signing. Let's be honest how many profoundly deaf kids that have gone through a bi bi approach have oral skills that most people would understand.
Where as my children most anybody they come in contact will understand them. Academically my son is above grade level. He is in the 9th grade reading at a 10th grade level and half of his classes are honors level. He is fully mainstreamed with no interpeter or notetaker. He rarely studies for a test and always gets b's and sbove on his test. My daughter also fully mainstreamed with an adult notetaker received a and b's on her report card. Yes lot of work on her part and yes she missed information but is so smart that she makes it up. In California we have an high school exit exam the kids take in the 10th grade which she just finished and passed this test on the 1st time. So there are gaps but that is where my job as a mom is to come in and fill the gaps.

The fact that your son is fully mainstreamed without support services, and that you also claim that he is profoundly deaf scares the hell out of me! And you are an educator?????

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I know I have met people that have had such bad experience and I really think I have learn from their experiences

Obviously not.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I go out of my way to always talk to parents about implants. I have found too many parents thinking it is a miracle when it is not. An implant can be a very valuable tool. I always refer to implants as being part of the puzzle and every part has to be there to fit if not then it is of no use. Being an oral teacher of deaf implant centers have called to ask me what I thought about certain students of mine if they should get implant and on several occasions I have told no, one because parents only spoke Spanish and were not willing to learn English there was no use in that case. In another case my student was 6 years old and had no oral skills so I told parents and my prnicpal and the implant center that this child needed a signing program right away. The child came to me at the age of 6 and I knew he was not going to make it orall and should have been placed in a TC class a long time ago

WTF! Why wouldn't an implant be helpful to a Spanish speaking family? If that is the language they speak, then hearing it would be as helpful as hearing English, wouldn't it? The CI isn't about spoken English. It is about oral/auditory language made accessable. There are many,many oral/auditory languages. English is the only one. And just because the parents spoke Spanish you recommended a TC program and labeled the child an oral failure? What are you thinking? Where is it that you teach? Are you certified? Do you have a degree?

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:25 PM

{Mod Edit: Quote/Post was previously removed--~RR}

Wasn't flaunting at all, my dear, merely pointing out that even those of us who shouldn't, make mistakes in spelling and grammar.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I would love to see that study. Honestly I have not seen any profoundly deaf children that were toddlers that had both oral and signing at the same and the child had good oral skills. I have met many people like yourself that have oral skills and were very fluent in sign language but because like you they were raised orally and then learn sign language as teenagers or adults. I would love to read the study. The other problem I see with TC programs out here by us and I have observe many programs is that they say they use oral language and sign language together at the same time but I have not seen a program like that yet. Generally what happens is that there a lot more signing done by the teachers, aides, and student then oral language. It is not a balance program, I have also seen classes that say they are TC but there is no oral language in the program

I've got one! Only he isn't a toddler anymore. And the reason there are problems with simcom is because ASL has a different syntax than English, and therefore, you nearly need to be a magician to sign ASL and speak Enlgish at the same time. The MCE systems do not facilitate understanding in the same way that ASL does, and are merely another method to make English visable. If one is trying to teach English, one cannot do it in this way. That is where the B-Bi method comes in, and it is a great improvement over the current TC methodology.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Wow u had heard horror stories from them. I am older than u I guess if u have teenagers. I never went school there except I went there to have my hearing test which it was free. They told my parents that I was deaf and mentally retarded. Of coursse I was not mentally retarded, need time to heal from major illness. U have to understand something, when John Tracy told my parents what were best for me back then that oral was must, sign language was bad. So they believed them and send me to oral program for few years. During two years time with this oral teacher, she abused me and I could not tell my parents about her because I could not communicate with my parents, only silence. I had problem with attention which I could not sit still and watch her lips for long time so I looked away from her then she came to me and shook my head and hurt me. Finally my parents fought school and changed it to TC which it was best thing ever happen to me. I learned right away after TC. Years later I met this oral teacher again , my fear was so bad and I shut myself down and not say one voice to her at all. U know what she told me after I refused to use my voice with her " What a shame on you for not being taling" That was when I decided I would never be a teacher for the deaf and blind. It was my first goal to be a school teacher now after her words to me. I would never do that to any deaf child ever so I decided to leave college and never return. I read you are a teacher and hope u are very good with those children. This is way off subject from CART to this. Oops. It was good reading. Good luck with your kids.

The Tracy Clinic is notoriously oralist in their philosophy, just like A.G. Bell. And they actually recoomend practices that increse the linguistic deprivation of deaf kids, and promote the viewpoint that sign language is inferior to spoken.

rick48 · 07-05-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The fact that your son is fully mainstreamed without support services, and that you also claim that he is profoundly deaf scares the hell out of me! And you are an educator?????

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

rick48 · 07-05-2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Wasn't flaunting at all, my dear, merely pointing out that even those of us who shouldn't, make mistakes in spelling and grammar.

Good, because there is nothing to flaunt. Having a degree is by no means any indicator of intelligence and certainly, as you prove, does not indicate an open mind or tolerence of differing viewpoints.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

I see. You would prefer that they go without services and therefore, are inadequately educated. Shame on you!

jillio · 07-05-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Good, because there is nothing to flaunt. Having a degree is by no means any indicator of intelligence and certainly, as you prove, does not indicate an open mind or tolerence of differing viewpoints.

And those that are threatened by it usually have not earned anything comparable.

**shel90** · 07-05-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

And you allegedly service deaf children with cis, that scares me a hell of a lot more!

She serves deaf ADULTS not children...big difference. Pls read carefully next time. I serve deaf children.

**shel90** · 07-05-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Good, because there is nothing to flaunt. Having a degree is by no means any indicator of intelligence and certainly, as you prove, does not indicate an open mind or tolerence of differing viewpoints.

She is not open minded about allowing some deaf kids falling thru the cracks academically and socio-emotionally just because they were unable to pick up on oral language or were left out a lot/missing out a lot in the education system. That's a good reason to be closed minded cuz it is about them not about u or us.

jillio · 07-05-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

She is not open minded about allowing some deaf kids falling thru the cracks academically and socio-emotionally just because they were unable to pick up on oral language or were left out a lot/missing out a lot in the education system. That's a good reason to be closed minded cuz it is about them not about u or us.

Yes, shel. More than being closed minded, because that involves refusing to even investigate other alternatives, I have investigated the other alternatives, seen the consequences first hand in more than one or two children, and have based my view on the most convincing evidence. Beign convinced that one method is superior to the others educationally is not closed minded, it is being open minded enough to to what works based on empirical eveidence. You approach it the same way.

07-05-2007, 01:25 PM	#231 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	{Mod Edit: Quote/Post was previously removed--~RR} Wasn't flaunting at all, my dear, merely pointing out that even those of us who shouldn't, make mistakes in spelling and grammar. Last edited by Roadrunner; 08-29-2007 at 10:41 PM.

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