District files appeal against deaf student - Page 20

**shel90** · 07-20-2007, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Rick, those are all very subjective and not really solid. You're insistitating that Sign kids are unemployed/on disabilty, poorly educated etc.
But I know many Sign folks who are employed (and not just as baggers or at Burger King or Wal-Mart) and I know many signers who are Harvard level educated. It's just that a lot of hearing parents tend to fall for the theory that oral only is a tool that totally equalizes dhh kids.
You know if oral only DID equalize dhh people, then they wouldn't need accomondations like CART, special ed, notetaking, etc etc.

Bingo! I feel more successful both professionally and personally with ASL in my life than just being oral-only. Most important of all is feeling good about myself and having more confidence as opposed to the extremely self-consicous person I was before I learned signing and was always worried about missing out on anything or misunderstanding people. With ASL a big part of my life now, those fear have been quelched..

jag · 07-20-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Nope..not cheaper..probably more expensive. However, due to the child's fragile health and risk of serious injury or even death WILL make the school provide whatever needs to ensure that doesnt happen cuz the schools dont want to be held liable.

However, a deaf child who has CIs who is performing on his/her grade level or better is more likely viewed differently and not as a liability.

Hope that makes sense?

Actually I'm aware.

My point is that unless the parents of children are willing to go through due process and take the refusals to court then the schools will continue to 'win'.
The parents in the case I mentioned DID take the school district through due process and then throug the courts, in this case the family IS working to get the supports their child needs. And they aren't backing down. One must always thank those who are willing to plow ahead and work their rears off to get things their children need, rather then give up when they're told it isn't needed.

jackiesolorzano · 07-20-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You're a certified teacher of the deaf. Don't you have to attend in-service? And, yeah, there's grant money out there to fund the programs. What the hell do the other high schools do for their signing students. If they have CART available for the oral students, why not for the signing students. Unless of course, they are oral programs.

Yes, I have to attend several in-services a year. Most of them are not directly related to the population of students that I work with. I find on my own different workshops and conferences that are directly related to my field. I am very lucky that my school district supports me in my quest to gain greater knowledge in my field. Last year my SD paid the conference fee for me to attend a week long training in Canada. I paid for airfare and hotel. I am currently being mentor by a cert AVT, my school gives me the time I need to observe her. I am also on a committee that just deals with cochlear implants students and providing trainings to other teachers that have cochlear implant students. These things I seek out my district does not make me attend them but they do support me and pay for most of the fees. I have friends who also attend these conferences but they have to pay for all these fees themselves.
In my area, what schools do for their signing high schools students is provide them an interpeter. They will not provide CART but I am hoping once our case is settle these students will be able to also get CART. There is a high school in Orange County that was able to provide CART and an interpeter through a grant from RIT but that grant is over. That school is now providing an interpeter and I think it is C-print. But it is very rare for a school to do both.
They do provide CART for all Oral students. In most school districts they have to fight for it. The only school district they do not need to fight for it is Los Angeles USD. There the only thing they need is for the student to be fully mainstream and to be able to read close to grade level.

jag · 07-20-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

The main point I mean by this is that they will have more job opportunties if they are able to be oral

Not to mention that when standing in a hall waiting for co workers to get done discussing something a person will actually have a fairly decent idea of what the h-LL they're talking about if they are 'oral'. vs the person who relies on ASL and stands there not knowing what the heck anyone is talking about. One doesn't 'need' to have college level english skills to follow verbal conversations, just need to be able ot hear. And being hoh with CI would put you in that level. Having been in the hoh with HA level while not fun (stress of having to follow conversation and missing some of it) at least it's eaiser to find out from someone nearby what's going on.

I watched a deaf co worker stand around at the team meetings not knowing what's going on or knowing what everyone's laughing about....I thought I had it bad, but to me that was worse, and less you think that people ignored him, no they didn't he did develope a raport with his co workers, but the truth is not being able to hear did seem to impact his life in daily assignment meetings where there was no terp and communication had to wait til the lead could write his assignment down. He was provided a terp at quarterly meetings and inservices.

jackiesolorzano · 07-20-2007, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by rick48
What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited.
What are you, her attorney?

It is mean spirited. You said that because I help my children so much that I am making the case hardier. I need to what is best for my children even if it makes the case hardier.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate.
And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint.

Jillo why do you have to be so mean. I never said that all parents should follow the oral path. But I do think all parents should be involved in their child's education and not just accept what the schools tell them.

She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive.
As have many parents. What makes her so special?
She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle.

Exactly

Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered.

Jillo you take things out of context. YEs, my daughter has had some difficulty but she has raise above these and her education has not suffered because we make up at home what is lacking at school. Like I mention before her GPA is 3.5 or 3.6

Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

Thank God there aren't more parents
But there are lots more parents like me. Maybe you just don't want to admit it but there.

who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

The school system is very worried. I know that because of the people that I know that work for this district and district close by. It looks we are even going to get more press. We have an interview said up for next week.

jackiesolorzano · 07-20-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

What opportunities?: employment, education, family relationships, social to name just a few.

I know that the concept that there are many well adjusted and happy kids who just happen to be oral is too difficult for you to understand but that is the price you pay for always thinking that you are right and that there is only one way to raise a deaf child.

Such a great point. Jillo you think there is only one way to raise a child. You are just so wrong and closed mind. If we can accept that there are more then one way to raise a deaf child why can't you.

Perhaps if you were not so intolerant and close-minded in your views, your comprehension would increase.

Also, as is patently evident from other issues regarding the oral deaf community: you just don't get it. Parents, such as myself and others on this board, do not need to "justify" our choices to anyone and certainly not to you.

Great point. I could care less Jillo what you think because I know how closed minded you are. Think goodness there are many other members of the Deaf culture are not like you.

When we relate real life examples of what are children are doing or have accomplished, it is not to "justify" our choices to you.

So right, Jillo you have mention over and over again how I must be insecure with my decisions. I can assure you that I am not insecure at all. I made inform decision that work out wonderfully for my children. I know that the decisions I made are not for everyone. I also know that I could care less what you think. I also know that they are amazing caring open minded people in the Deaf culture. And these type of people I will always make sure my children have a connection with.

Talk about being egocentric! Do you really think we need or seek your approval and/or understanding of the choices we made for our children? When we relate our stories and experiences about our children it is to help others who may be considering various options for either themselves or for their children and to combat the misinformation that still exists.

Ric you are so right in your points

jackiesolorzano · 07-20-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jag

Not to mention that when standing in a hall waiting for co workers to get done discussing something a person will actually have a fairly decent idea of what the h-LL they're talking about if they are 'oral'. vs the person who relies on ASL and stands there not knowing what the heck anyone is talking about. One doesn't 'need' to have college level english skills to follow verbal conversations, just need to be able ot hear. And being hoh with CI would put you in that level. Having been in the hoh with HA level while not fun (stress of having to follow conversation and missing some of it) at least it's eaiser to find out from someone nearby what's going on.

I watched a deaf co worker stand around at the team meetings not knowing what's going on or knowing what everyone's laughing about....I thought I had it bad, but to me that was worse, and less you think that people ignored him, no they didn't he did develope a raport with his co workers, but the truth is not being able to hear did seem to impact his life in daily assignment meetings where there was no terp and communication had to wait til the lead could write his assignment down. He was provided a terp at quarterly meetings and inservices.

I was just talking to new teacher next door to me. The class next to me is a TC class. I feel so happy to have this teacher next door, really nice lady, smart and from the Deaf culture but has an open mind to different approaches. She has some oral skills and with my limited signing we are able to communicate very well. She was telling me that our prinicpal took her to meet the school prinicpal. She said she had no idea what they were talking about because neither knew sign language. She said she felt very frustrated. I was thinking that this wouldn't happen to my daughter because she can hear not everything but she can hear.

jackiesolorzano · 07-20-2007, 03:58 PM

Shel,
I am not sure if you mention on this thread or another. You mention how you have good oral skills but it still is hard for you to understand people and at times it is hard for people to understand you. What I want to tell you and I do not mean to offend you is that you cannot compare your oral skills to my children's oral skills. Both of my children are able to talk and listen on the phone. We are able to talk about anything and it deosn't matter if it is a cell phone or landline. On Wednesday I was on a radio show after the show my son called me on my cell phone and he was telling me what I said on the show. Am I wrong to assume you cannot understand what is being said on a radio and you cannot talk on the phone. My children can understand me if I am in bathroom with the door closed. My son really doesn't have any lipreading skills. My daughter is a much better lip reader. But they are both very depended on the hearing they have. So saying that you have diffculty with your oral skills with hearing people does not mean that my children will.

jillio · 07-20-2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Yes, I have to attend several in-services a year. Most of them are not directly related to the population of students that I work with. I find on my own different workshops and conferences that are directly related to my field. I am very lucky that my school district supports me in my quest to gain greater knowledge in my field. Last year my SD paid the conference fee for me to attend a week long training in Canada. I paid for airfare and hotel. I am currently being mentor by a cert AVT, my school gives me the time I need to observe her. I am also on a committee that just deals with cochlear implants students and providing trainings to other teachers that have cochlear implant students. These things I seek out my district does not make me attend them but they do support me and pay for most of the fees. I have friends who also attend these conferences but they have to pay for all these fees themselves.
In my area, what schools do for their signing high schools students is provide them an interpeter. They will not provide CART but I am hoping once our case is settle these students will be able to also get CART. There is a high school in Orange County that was able to provide CART and an interpeter through a grant from RIT but that grant is over. That school is now providing an interpeter and I think it is C-print. But it is very rare for a school to do both.
They do provide CART for all Oral students. In most school districts they have to fight for it. The only school district they do not need to fight for it is Los Angeles USD. There the only thing they need is for the student to be fully mainstream and to be able to read close to grade level.

CART for oral students and not for signing studens is blatant discrimination. Why should an oral student be entitled to an accommodation that provides visual materials to oral deaf students and not to signing deaf students?

jillio · 07-20-2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Originally Posted by rick48
What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited.
What are you, her attorney?

It is mean spirited. You said that because I help my children so much that I am making the case hardier. I need to what is best for my children even if it makes the case hardier.

And you said your attorney told you the same thing.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate.
And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint.

Jillo why do you have to be so mean. I never said that all parents should follow the oral path. But I do think all parents should be involved in their child's education and not just accept what the schools tell them.

Are you or are you not oriented toward the oralist phiposophy? I would suggest you spend your summer reading a history of dea feducation, and then you will discover exactly what oppression and exclusionthe oralist philosophy has created for deaf children throughout the United States.
She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive.

As have many parents. What makes her so special?

She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle.

Exactly

Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered.

Jillo you take things out of context. YEs, my daughter has had some difficulty but she has raise above these and her education has not suffered because we make up at home what is lacking at school. Like I mention before her GPA is 3.5 or 3.6

Did you ar did you not saythat she was missing things and difficulty grasping course content?Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

Thank God there aren't more parents
But there are lots more parents like me. Maybe you just don't want to admit it but there.

Unfortunately, there are far too many parents out there who follow the oral philsophy on mistaken assumptions. And that is exactly wahy the literacy rates and the educatioanl acievement of deaf students continues to lag behind that of their hearing peers.

who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

The school system is very worried. I know that because of the people that I know that work for this district and district close by. It looks we are even going to get more press. We have an interview said up for next week.

If they were terribly worried about the bad press, they wouldn't pursue the appeal. Enjpoying all the press, aren't you? I think perhaps you are more concerned about the press than the school system is. I'd be very careful about what I say to the press if I were you. If you contradict yourself as much as you have onthis board, the school system can use it in their appeal to destroy your credibility.

jillio · 07-20-2007, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Shel,
I am not sure if you mention on this thread or another. You mention how you have good oral skills but it still is hard for you to understand people and at times it is hard for people to understand you. What I want to tell you and I do not mean to offend you is that you cannot compare your oral skills to my children's oral skills. Both of my children are able to talk and listen on the phone. We are able to talk about anything and it deosn't matter if it is a cell phone or landline. On Wednesday I was on a radio show after the show my son called me on my cell phone and he was telling me what I said on the show. Am I wrong to assume you cannot understand what is being said on a radio and you cannot talk on the phone. My children can understand me if I am in bathroom with the door closed. My son really doesn't have any lipreading skills. My daughter is a much better lip reader. But they are both very depended on the hearing they have. So saying that you have diffculty with your oral skills with hearing people does not mean that my children will.

If they can both hear that well, how is it that they are missing out on so much inthe classroom?

**shel90** · 07-20-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Shel,
I am not sure if you mention on this thread or another. You mention how you have good oral skills but it still is hard for you to understand people and at times it is hard for people to understand you. What I want to tell you and I do not mean to offend you is that you cannot compare your oral skills to my children's oral skills. Both of my children are able to talk and listen on the phone. We are able to talk about anything and it deosn't matter if it is a cell phone or landline. On Wednesday I was on a radio show after the show my son called me on my cell phone and he was telling me what I said on the show. Am I wrong to assume you cannot understand what is being said on a radio and you cannot talk on the phone. My children can understand me if I am in bathroom with the door closed. My son really doesn't have any lipreading skills. My daughter is a much better lip reader. But they are both very depended on the hearing they have. So saying that you have diffculty with your oral skills with hearing people does not mean that my children will.

Maybe or maybe not but u admitted that they missed out a lot what was being said in the classroom. My argument is about full access to education and for all deaf children not just your children only. Many deaf children with CIs have worse oral skills than I do so if they can hear so well, then why are they several years delayed? When I argue about deaf ed, I am referring for the large percentage that suffer not just about your children only. Why should I argue about your children if they are doing fine?

deafdyke · 07-21-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

If they can both hear that well, how is it that they are missing out on so much inthe classroom?

and Jackie, shel may not be functionally hoh but so what? I am hoh. I prolly function at the same level as your kids. Even for kids who are functionally hoh, oral only isn' the best thing in the world. Hey, I'm an aural learner, and and an oral sucess. It still didn't quite equalize me.
Oh, and we're not bashing you b/c you're oral. we simply think that it's overkill to get CART for a child who is on or very close to grade level. If you wanted to get CART b/c she wasn't doing too well at school, it would be different.
A LOT of parents I know would be damn impressed if their kids were doing that well.
One reason why a full toolbox approach is a good idear, is simple.
ASL captializes on a nautral strengh of dhh kids, that is visual processing. Why are pro-oral people ignoring that? Maybe if we pushed Sign, then the kids wouldn't have to work so hard to keep up, and they could concetrate on producing actual content. Like I have hypotonia (low muscle tone which inhibits my fine motor) I can write, but I can type even faster and better. Before I learned how to type, I was concentrating so much on production that I didn't have time for producing content. Maybe if the full toolbox apparoach was pushed more, we'd have more high acheiving deafies!
Oh and jag........just b/c a person has oral skills it doesn't mean that they will be able to interact in crowd sittuions. There's a significent number of kids who have great

ne on one oral skills, but who need Sign in other instances.

oakbluffs · 07-21-2007, 07:22 AM

Mods,

Will you please close this threads? We've had it with their bickering.

thank you

rick48 · 07-21-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Originally Posted by rick48
What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited.
What are you, her attorney?

It is mean spirited. You said that because I help my children so much that I am making the case hardier. I need to what is best for my children even if it makes the case hardier.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate.
And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint.

Jillo why do you have to be so mean. I never said that all parents should follow the oral path. But I do think all parents should be involved in their child's education and not just accept what the schools tell them.

She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive.
As have many parents. What makes her so special?
She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle.

Exactly

Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered.

Jillo you take things out of context. YEs, my daughter has had some difficulty but she has raise above these and her education has not suffered because we make up at home what is lacking at school. Like I mention before her GPA is 3.5 or 3.6

Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

Thank God there aren't more parents
But there are lots more parents like me. Maybe you just don't want to admit it but there.

who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

The school system is very worried. I know that because of the people that I know that work for this district and district close by. It looks we are even going to get more press. We have an interview said up for next week.

Jackie,

First, how did it go when you appeared before the Commission the other day?

Second, pay no attention to Jillio she just a troll. I was going to comment further but her reply to you in 592 just shows how desperate she is.

Third, you made very good points about the difference between what people without cis and those with cis can hear. It has been said many times that you just cannot compare one's experiences growing up in the pre-ci era with those of the ci kids of today. My daughter is profoundly deaf, a clssic "left corner audigram" even with the most powerful HAs she heard virtually nothing but with her ci it goes so far beyond just one to one conversation but being able to talk on the phone, when she is either in a different room or even floor in our house, down the street and so on. But these are only a few examples and they are not being cited merely to show just what they hear but as examples of how being able to hear allows them to participate in the fabric of everyday life. For her and for many other thousands of other cis kids, the cochlear implant has removed or lessened obstacles in their lives, barriers between them and the over 99% of the rest of their world that does not use a manual language and generally made their lives easier.

As you know the first wave of ci kids are just starting to hit college. It will be exciting over the next 10-15 years as they graduate and begin to take their place within both the mainstream and the deaf community.

Finally, you keep doing what your doing and if the use of the media helps your daughter in her case, then by all means use the press to her advantage. I guess the press is really just another "tool" in your toolbox approach to winning your case!

Rick

Nesmuth · 07-21-2007, 08:59 AM

We did it!

We developed a linux based CART system in 9 days after receiving the grant! We beat dozens of other organizations who received grants from the same department for the same thing.

See the pics at The Orange Deafie Blog

It's party time!

Richard

**shel90** · 07-21-2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

We did it!

We developed a linux based CART system in 9 days after receiving the grant! We beat dozens of other organizations who received grants from the same department for the same thing.

See the pics at The Orange Deafie Blog

It's party time!

Richard

Congrats!

**shel90** · 07-21-2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Jackie,

First, how did it go when you appeared before the Commission the other day?

Second, pay no attention to Jillio she just a troll. I was going to comment further but her reply to you in 592 just shows how desperate she is.

Third, you made very good points about the difference between what people without cis and those with cis can hear. It has been said many times that you just cannot compare one's experiences growing up in the pre-ci era with those of the ci kids of today. My daughter is profoundly deaf, a clssic "left corner audigram" even with the most powerful HAs she heard virtually nothing but with her ci it goes so far beyond just one to one conversation but being able to talk on the phone, when she is either in a different room or even floor in our house, down the street and so on. But these are only a few examples and they are not being cited merely to show just what they hear but as examples of how being able to hear allows them to participate in the fabric of everyday life. For her and for many other thousands of other cis kids, the cochlear implant has removed or lessened obstacles in their lives, barriers between them and the over 99% of the rest of their world that does not use a manual language and generally made their lives easier.

As you know the first wave of ci kids are just starting to hit college. It will be exciting over the next 10-15 years as they graduate and begin to take their place within both the mainstream and the deaf community.

Finally, you keep doing what your doing and if the use of the media helps your daughter in her case, then by all means use the press to her advantage. I guess the press is really just another "tool" in your toolbox approach to winning your case!

Rick

I have no objections to that..just dont want any deaf children to fall thru the cracks and get left behind academically. Just would be nice to have the public's support and awareness of those who dont succeed with CIs or with the oral-only education. Would be really nice..

rick48 · 07-21-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I have no objections to that..just dont want any deaf children to fall thru the cracks and get left behind academically. Just would be nice to have the public's support and awareness of those who dont succeed with CIs or with the oral-only education. Would be really nice..

Honestly answer this question of the 5-6 kids you have previously identified at your school who "fell thru the cracks", what was the primary reason: that they have a ci, that they were in oral only programs or lack of parental involvment and/or support?

rick48 · 07-21-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

We did it!

We developed a linux based CART system in 9 days after receiving the grant! We beat dozens of other organizations who received grants from the same department for the same thing.

See the pics at The Orange Deafie Blog

It's party time!

Richard

Fantastic!

**shel90** · 07-21-2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Honestly answer this question of the 5-6 kids you have previously identified at your school who "fell thru the cracks", what was the primary reason: that they have a ci, that they were in oral programs or lack of parental involvment and/or support?

There are more than that fell through the cracks..I worked directly with 5 or 6 but overall..there are a lot more in many of the deaf schools/deaf programs througout in the US that I know of and according to my boss as of last week, more new students enrollement are popping up over the summer for the next school year..dont know if they have CIs or not. Will find out in Fall. I have connections to other deaf educators both at deaf schools and deaf programs in publics schools. They are seeing the same thing as I am seeing.

Speaking of those students with CIs that I worked with directly, all of them were in oral programs..some got taken out at a very young age and some got taken out as teenagers..the latter group is so much harder to do remedial work with because many of them have given up on themselves. I dont know what happened to make them fall so far behind. At least with the younger ones, their parents recognized that they arent thriving at the other programs but the older ones...why wait so long? That's what I dont understand at all.

We have a few children with Cis (maybe 2 or 3) that have started with our program and continued with us and they are doing just fine both auditory and visually.

I know of a few deaf families of deaf children who want to get their children implanted but with Jackie's comment about spoken English at home, it makes me wonder what will happen with them. Will be interesting how things unfold in the next 5 years.

I just dont want to see any more kids language delayed...time to change that but how? If CIs dont work for all deaf children, then what's the best thing we can do to ensure that all children dont get delayed...that's why I thought the BiBi approach would be great but I guess many parents prefer their kids not to use sign language for fear of it interfering with their children's oral language skills so I cant twist their arms..just try the best I can and u do the best u can too if u believe in the oral only approach.

I believe that all deaf children should get an opportunity to develop oral skills and I also believe that all deaf children should have full access to language too.

jillio · 07-21-2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I was just talking to new teacher next door to me. The class next to me is a TC class. I feel so happy to have this teacher next door, really nice lady, smart and from the Deaf culture but has an open mind to different approaches. She has some oral skills and with my limited signing we are able to communicate very well. She was telling me that our prinicpal took her to meet the school prinicpal. She said she had no idea what they were talking about because neither knew sign language. She said she felt very frustrated. I was thinking that this wouldn't happen to my daughter because she can hear not everything but she can hear.

Hmmm...our Deaf instructor is provided an interpreter for all adminsitrative meetings and consultations. And this makes no sense....she was able to communicate "very well" with you becasue she has "some oral skills", and you have "limited signing skills", but was unable to communicate with the principal because he had "no signing skills". Logical conclusion would be that she didn't communicate "well" with you either, but only limited communication. I wonder if her assessment of your communications with her would fall into the "very well" category?

jillio · 07-21-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

and Jackie, shel may not be functionally hoh but so what? I am hoh. I prolly function at the same level as your kids. Even for kids who are functionally hoh, oral only isn' the best thing in the world. Hey, I'm an aural learner, and and an oral sucess. It still didn't quite equalize me.
Oh, and we're not bashing you b/c you're oral. we simply think that it's overkill to get CART for a child who is on or very close to grade level. If you wanted to get CART b/c she wasn't doing too well at school, it would be different.
A LOT of parents I know would be damn impressed if their kids were doing that well.
One reason why a full toolbox approach is a good idear, is simple.
ASL captializes on a nautral strengh of dhh kids, that is visual processing. Why are pro-oral people ignoring that? Maybe if we pushed Sign, then the kids wouldn't have to work so hard to keep up, and they could concetrate on producing actual content. Like I have hypotonia (low muscle tone which inhibits my fine motor) I can write, but I can type even faster and better. Before I learned how to type, I was concentrating so much on production that I didn't have time for producing content. Maybe if the full toolbox apparoach was pushed more, we'd have more high acheiving deafies!
Oh and jag........just b/c a person has oral skills it doesn't mean that they will be able to interact in crowd sittuions. There's a significent number of kids who have great

ne on one oral skills, but who need Sign in other instances.

jillio · 07-21-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oakbluffs

Mods,

Will you please close this threads? We've had it with their bickering.

thank you

If it bothers you,then don't read the thread. Simple solution.

rick48 · 07-21-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If it bothers you,then don't read the thread. Simple solution.

Thanks for proving my point.

jillio · 07-21-2007, 10:43 AM

[QUOTE=rick48;808593]Jackie,

First, how did it go when you appeared before the Commission the other day?

Second, pay no attention to Jillio she just a troll. I was going to comment further but her reply to you in 592 just shows how desperate she is.

My reply was to Jackie, not to you. Therefore, your reply is not necessary. And your name calling is further evidence that you are simply unable to support your arguments with solid fact. Hence, you attempt to divert the issues with childish tactics. That is indication of TRUE desperation.

Third, you made very good points about the difference between what people without cis and those with cis can hear. It has been said many times that you just cannot compare one's experiences growing up in the pre-ci era with those of the ci kids of today. My daughter is profoundly deaf, a clssic "left corner audigram" even with the most powerful HAs she heard virtually nothing but with her ci it goes so far beyond just one to one conversation but being able to talk on the phone, when she is either in a different room or even floor in our house, down the street and so on. But these are only a few examples and they are not being cited merely to show just what they hear but as examples of how being able to hear allows them to participate in the fabric of everyday life. For her and for many other thousands of other cis kids, the cochlear implant has removed or lessened obstacles in their lives, barriers between them and the over 99% of the rest of their world that does not use a manual language and generally made their lives easier.

where exactly did you get the statistic that 99% of the world is oral? Pull it out of your buttt like most of your other statistics? AND, once agian, you read what you want to. No one has said that CI is not beneficial. What we have said, and will continue to say, is that it does not remove all barriers and does not allow a deaf child tofunction as a hearing child, but as an HH child. If it solved all the problems and removed all of the barriers, the issue of Jackie requesting CART for her own children would never have arisen. They wouldn't need it because they could function as hearing children. You defeat your own arguments.

As you know the first wave of ci kids are just starting to hit college. It will be exciting over the next 10-15 years as they graduate and begin to take their place within both the mainstream and the deaf community.

Finally, you keep doing what your doing and if the use of the media helps your daughter in her case, then by all means use the press to her advantage. I guess the press is really just another "tool" in your toolbox approach to winning your case!

Yeah, lets just throw these kids out there in front of the media and see if we can't make their differences even more obvious to everyone. I thought the CI wa supposed to provide integration so that the hearing loss wasn't an issue. This tactic falls back on the old "this child is different, not the same" argument. Yet you and jackie continually argue that your children are jsut like the hearing children intheir classrooms. Whcih is it? Does it change according to your purpose and whim?

jillio · 07-21-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Ric you are so right in your points

In response to your post #587:

This isn't about raising children, it's about educating deaf children. Closed minded ins the refusal to consider providing a deaf child with all the communication tools available, and to insist on oral only education based on fallacy. That is what you are doing, not I. There are many ways to raise a deaf child, or a hearing child, for that matter, but there ar not many ways to insure that they are educated and achieve educationally on the same level as their hearing peers. Your case proves that.

What do you know of Deaf Culture? You are an oralist, and your kids are oral. They don't particpate in Deaf Culture, nor do you, by your won admission. So how is it that you are making sure that your children have a connection to Deaf Culture?

And frankly, I could care less what you think of me, as well. Your beliefs in general only concern me when they have the possibility of having a negative impact on the education of deaf children--not your children, not my child, but deaf children as a group. And beliefs that you espouse in the name of providing opportunity are the variable that is singly most responsible for for the educational difficulties experienced by deaf children as a group. Therefore, I have a moral obligation as a parent of a Deaf child and the community to which he belongs, and a professional obligationa s a counselor and educator whose profession it is to try to help these kids overcome the harm that idea such as yours have caused for them, to point out your fallacy, your inconsistency, and your errors.

I find it quite telling that you never bothered to visit this board prior to the news article concerning your daughter was posted. It is quite obvious what your motivations are. Nor do you bother to enter into any of the other threads to chat with members of the Deaf community to become informed on how these issues impact their lives in all ways. You limit yourself to attempting to defend your position, and have no interst in actually understanding the issues from the Deaf/ deaf point of view. It is all about you and your daughter, and how well she is doing as an oral person. So, I will ask you agian, if she is as successful as you say, and has integrated into hearing society to the extent that you claim, what is all the hoopla about?

jillio · 07-21-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I have no objections to that..just dont want any deaf children to fall thru the cracks and get left behind academically. Just would be nice to have the public's support and awareness of those who dont succeed with CIs or with the oral-only education. Would be really nice..

Yeppers! And I am dealing with that first wave of CI kids hitting college that rick mentioned. They have the same difficulties educationally that anyother deaf child raised orally has. The exception is the deaf CI child raised bilingually with sign and speech. And that is exactly why it is necessaryto continue speaking out agianst an oral only educational philosophy.

jillio · 07-21-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Thanks for proving my point.

And that point would be......?

**shel90** · 07-21-2007, 11:27 AM

[QUOTE=jillio;808745]In response to your post #587:

This isn't about raising children, it's about educating deaf children. Closed minded ins the refusal to consider providing a deaf child with all the communication tools available, and to insist on oral only education based on fallacy. That is what you are doing, not I. There are many ways to raise a deaf child, or a hearing child, for that matter, but there ar not many ways to insure that they are educated and achieve educationally on the same level as their hearing peers. Your case proves that.

What do you know of Deaf Culture? You are an oralist, and your kids are oral. They don't particpate in Deaf Culture, nor do you, by your won admission. So how is it that you are making sure that your children have a connection to Deaf Culture?

And frankly, I could care less what you think of me, as well. Your beliefs in general only concern me when they have the possibility of having a negative impact on the education of deaf children--not your children, not my child, but deaf children as a group. And beliefs that you espouse in the name of providing opportunity are the variable that is singly most responsible for for the educational difficulties experienced by deaf children as a group. Therefore, I have a moral obligation as a parent of a Deaf child and the community to which he belongs, and a professional obligationa s a counselor and educator whose profession it is to try to help these kids overcome the harm that idea such as yours have caused for them, to point out your fallacy, your inconsistency, and your errors.

I find it quite telling that you never bothered to visit this board prior to the news article concerning your daughter was posted. It is quite obvious what your motivations are. Nor do you bother to enter into any of the other threads to chat with members of the Deaf community to become informed on how these issues impact their lives in all ways. You limit yourself to attempting to defend your position, and have no interst in actually understanding the issues from the Deaf/ deaf point of view. It is all about you and your daughter, and how well she is doing as an oral person. So, I will ask you agian, if she is as successful as you say, and has integrated into hearing society to the extent that you claim, what is all the hoopla about?[/QUOTE]

True..if the CIs make her hearing enough to communicate easily through different rooms, hear what people are saying on the radio and so on..then there would be no need for CART. Since, there is a need for a CART in her case, then that means deaf/hoh are still not getting full access to information in the educational setting therefore delaying them unless they are super achievers but we cant assume that all children will have that innate skill to fill in all the missing gaps. So, CIs dont give children all access to info without a visual aid do they? It is either they do or they dont. That's why I have my concerns and I feel the BiBi approach would help all of them since it provides both approaches. I guess there must be something wrong with using sign language in the educational setting.

07-21-2007, 11:27 AM	#600 (permalink)
shel90 Let It Snow!!!! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,303 Blog Entries: 3	[QUOTE=jillio;808745]In response to your post #587: This isn't about raising children, it's about educating deaf children. Closed minded ins the refusal to consider providing a deaf child with all the communication tools available, and to insist on oral only education based on fallacy. That is what you are doing, not I. There are many ways to raise a deaf child, or a hearing child, for that matter, but there ar not many ways to insure that they are educated and achieve educationally on the same level as their hearing peers. Your case proves that. What do you know of Deaf Culture? You are an oralist, and your kids are oral. They don't particpate in Deaf Culture, nor do you, by your won admission. So how is it that you are making sure that your children have a connection to Deaf Culture? And frankly, I could care less what you think of me, as well. Your beliefs in general only concern me when they have the possibility of having a negative impact on the education of deaf children--not your children, not my child, but deaf children as a group. And beliefs that you espouse in the name of providing opportunity are the variable that is singly most responsible for for the educational difficulties experienced by deaf children as a group. Therefore, I have a moral obligation as a parent of a Deaf child and the community to which he belongs, and a professional obligationa s a counselor and educator whose profession it is to try to help these kids overcome the harm that idea such as yours have caused for them, to point out your fallacy, your inconsistency, and your errors. I find it quite telling that you never bothered to visit this board prior to the news article concerning your daughter was posted. It is quite obvious what your motivations are. Nor do you bother to enter into any of the other threads to chat with members of the Deaf community to become informed on how these issues impact their lives in all ways. You limit yourself to attempting to defend your position, and have no interst in actually understanding the issues from the Deaf/ deaf point of view. It is all about you and your daughter, and how well she is doing as an oral person. So, I will ask you agian, if she is as successful as you say, and has integrated into hearing society to the extent that you claim, what is all the hoopla about?[/QUOTE] True..if the CIs make her hearing enough to communicate easily through different rooms, hear what people are saying on the radio and so on..then there would be no need for CART. Since, there is a need for a CART in her case, then that means deaf/hoh are still not getting full access to information in the educational setting therefore delaying them unless they are super achievers but we cant assume that all children will have that innate skill to fill in all the missing gaps. So, CIs dont give children all access to info without a visual aid do they? It is either they do or they dont. That's why I have my concerns and I feel the BiBi approach would help all of them since it provides both approaches. I guess there must be something wrong with using sign language in the educational setting. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

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07-20-2007, 03:32 PM	#575 (permalink)
jackiesolorzano Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,012	Originally Posted by rick48 What a terribly mean spirited thing to say. There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited. What are you, her attorney? It is mean spirited. You said that because I help my children so much that I am making the case hardier. I need to what is best for my children even if it makes the case hardier. Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate. And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint. Jillo why do you have to be so mean. I never said that all parents should follow the oral path. But I do think all parents should be involved in their child's education and not just accept what the schools tell them. She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive. As have many parents. What makes her so special? She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle. Exactly Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered. Jillo you take things out of context. YEs, my daughter has had some difficulty but she has raise above these and her education has not suffered because we make up at home what is lacking at school. Like I mention before her GPA is 3.5 or 3.6 Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right. Too bad that are not more parents like her. Thank God there aren't more parents But there are lots more parents like me. Maybe you just don't want to admit it but there. who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many. If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult. Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember? The school system is very worried. I know that because of the people that I know that work for this district and district close by. It looks we are even going to get more press. We have an interview said up for next week.

07-20-2007, 03:58 PM	#578 (permalink)
jackiesolorzano Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,012	Shel, I am not sure if you mention on this thread or another. You mention how you have good oral skills but it still is hard for you to understand people and at times it is hard for people to understand you. What I want to tell you and I do not mean to offend you is that you cannot compare your oral skills to my children's oral skills. Both of my children are able to talk and listen on the phone. We are able to talk about anything and it deosn't matter if it is a cell phone or landline. On Wednesday I was on a radio show after the show my son called me on my cell phone and he was telling me what I said on the show. Am I wrong to assume you cannot understand what is being said on a radio and you cannot talk on the phone. My children can understand me if I am in bathroom with the door closed. My son really doesn't have any lipreading skills. My daughter is a much better lip reader. But they are both very depended on the hearing they have. So saying that you have diffculty with your oral skills with hearing people does not mean that my children will.

07-21-2007, 07:22 AM	#584 (permalink)
oakbluffs Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oak Bluffs, MA Posts: 184	Mods, Will you please close this threads? We've had it with their bickering. thank you

07-21-2007, 08:59 AM	#586 (permalink)
Nesmuth Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Southland of California Posts: 3,199	We did it! We developed a linux based CART system in 9 days after receiving the grant! We beat dozens of other organizations who received grants from the same department for the same thing. See the pics at The Orange Deafie Blog It's party time! Richard

07-21-2007, 10:43 AM	#596 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	[QUOTE=rick48;808593]Jackie, First, how did it go when you appeared before the Commission the other day? Second, pay no attention to Jillio she just a troll. I was going to comment further but her reply to you in 592 just shows how desperate she is. My reply was to Jackie, not to you. Therefore, your reply is not necessary. And your name calling is further evidence that you are simply unable to support your arguments with solid fact. Hence, you attempt to divert the issues with childish tactics. That is indication of TRUE desperation. Third, you made very good points about the difference between what people without cis and those with cis can hear. It has been said many times that you just cannot compare one's experiences growing up in the pre-ci era with those of the ci kids of today. My daughter is profoundly deaf, a clssic "left corner audigram" even with the most powerful HAs she heard virtually nothing but with her ci it goes so far beyond just one to one conversation but being able to talk on the phone, when she is either in a different room or even floor in our house, down the street and so on. But these are only a few examples and they are not being cited merely to show just what they hear but as examples of how being able to hear allows them to participate in the fabric of everyday life. For her and for many other thousands of other cis kids, the cochlear implant has removed or lessened obstacles in their lives, barriers between them and the over 99% of the rest of their world that does not use a manual language and generally made their lives easier. where exactly did you get the statistic that 99% of the world is oral? Pull it out of your buttt like most of your other statistics? AND, once agian, you read what you want to. No one has said that CI is not beneficial. What we have said, and will continue to say, is that it does not remove all barriers and does not allow a deaf child tofunction as a hearing child, but as an HH child. If it solved all the problems and removed all of the barriers, the issue of Jackie requesting CART for her own children would never have arisen. They wouldn't need it because they could function as hearing children. You defeat your own arguments. As you know the first wave of ci kids are just starting to hit college. It will be exciting over the next 10-15 years as they graduate and begin to take their place within both the mainstream and the deaf community. Finally, you keep doing what your doing and if the use of the media helps your daughter in her case, then by all means use the press to her advantage. I guess the press is really just another "tool" in your toolbox approach to winning your case! Yeah, lets just throw these kids out there in front of the media and see if we can't make their differences even more obvious to everyone. I thought the CI wa supposed to provide integration so that the hearing loss wasn't an issue. This tactic falls back on the old "this child is different, not the same" argument. Yet you and jackie continually argue that your children are jsut like the hearing children intheir classrooms. Whcih is it? Does it change according to your purpose and whim?