shel90

I wasnt referring to teachers who have certification or degrees in deaf ed...talking about the regular ed or special ed teachers who have NO training in deaf ed. Too many times teachers with degrees in special ed claim to know what's best for deaf children and too often they have no clue..ha!

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jackiesolorzano

Shel, I guess that is where we will just disagree. And that is OK. I know oralism has worked well for my children but I know it is because of what we do at home. Knowing who I am I know, I know that if we would have choosen signing, my kids would probable be at the same level that they are now because we would have embraced signing and done everything we could to see our children succeed. The one advantage that I see with oral language it just gives my children more opportunties. I know though that oralism is not for everyone. And I can see your point. I am so happy that my children are able to read and write at their grade level or very close to it. Just because I think my kids are very successful with oral language, I know they are deaf and miss information.

jackiesolorzano

Yeah you are right.

pek1

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jillio

BINGO!

jillio

The opportunity clause is one that I hear parents who have chosen the oral method us over and over to justify their choices. Exactly what opportunities are you speaking of?

I just don't understand this. If you know they are deaf and miss information, why is it not important to provide communication that will allow them to get that information?

jillio

Why in the world is she teaching d/hh students if she isn't even aware of the services available?

jillio

No one says you should set her up to fail. But, just as your attorney has pointed out, don't you see where your attitude has contributed to the situation you are currently experiencing? You have made it easy for the school system to deny services.

jackiesolorzano

The main point I mean by this is that they will have more job opportunties if they are able to be oral

jackiesolorzano

She has been teaching over 20 or 30 years. She was trained to work with kids that sign but that is not what she is doing. She only works with kids that are mainstream in their local schools. She has told me that she focuses on her hard of hearing students because the only deaf students she has on her caseload are my children and a friend of my daughter.

shel90

The view on deaf people in general must be different in California than here on the East coast cuz many deaf people who dont have excellent oral skills have good jobs here. In fact, many of them work at IBM in NYC as computer engineers and I know a feew of them dont have any speech skills...I guess California's view is so outdated.

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jillio

Signing students use CART, too.

jillio

I guess. My son has had a job since he was 16 and continues to work while he is in college--only part time, but still employed. And of my deaf students, one (the one who provided me with the poem from another thread) works in Human Resources at the VA, one works for the Dept. of Transportation, another works for a computer services company, etc.etc. But all are gainfully employed AND attending college.

jackiesolorzano

I really don't know about how outdated California is but I was under the impression that unless a company has over a certain amount of employees then they do not have to provide an interpeter.

jillio

And.....?

jackiesolorzano

I know that. That is why I am very excited that once we have everything settle with my daughter, other parents of just signing kids will be able to use CART.
What I meant by this teacher is that she recieved her training some 20 or 30 years ago. For the past 15 years she has just been working with hard of hearing kids and has not stay on top of all the changes in education.

jackiesolorzano

So if a company does not have to provide an interpeter it makes it hardier for a signing kid to get a job whereas if my daughter wanted to work for a small company she would be able to because she does not need an interpeter to communicate with her co-workers and boss.

shel90

I grew up orally and still need a terp to communicate with hearing people for important information relating to my children, or jobs cuz I want to ensure that I wont misunderstand them or miss out on anything. Also, I noticed many hearing people who dont have experience working with deaf people dont have a lot of patience to work harder to listen to my speech since I dont speak clearly at some times. I always tell them to let me know if they dont understand me pls let me know and they still dont do it...just nod their heads and their behavior becomes rigid like they are in a hurry for me to finish talking. How is that providing me opportunities in the hearing world if they react to me like that despite my good oral skills. Nope they are not perfect but I was told by many people that I speak well so if that's the case then why that kind of attitude?

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jillio

She isn't required to do in-service?

And believe it or not, it is easier to get CART for signers than for oral students for the reasons I have cited previously.

jillio

They don't ahve to provide other accommodations, either. Think they would be willing to provide CART for staff meetings? The environment in a staff meeting is very similar to the classroom environment.

deafdyke

That's only b/c you bought the theories and arguements of pro oral folks.
(that talking and listening= freedom/ more oppertunties)
Being orally skilled is good. I mean god, its just like being able to speak English if you're a Hispanic immigrant. But being oral ONLY really doesn't confer any extra advantages. Oh, and Jackie, there are a lot of oral kids who have significent issues with reading. It's not just Signing kids.
Oh, and Jackie, there are TONS of accomondations that oral people need. I know that the most common reason cited for going oral only is so they don't have to depend on a 'terp. BUT what about all the other accomondations that oral only people need, like FM devices, ORAL 'terps (ever hear of those?), and others that aren't coming to mind right now. Why don't they promote dependancy like a 'terp does?

EXCELLENT point!
NOT EVERYONE speaks totally clearly. My best friend grew up oral. Her speech skills are just HORRIBLE. Like very few people can undy her. As a result she grew up pretty much isolated and alone and just now started her first real relationship. I still get "what? what?" a lot...........Oral skills are awesome, but oral only is just so flawed. Oral is built on the assumption that a dhh kid will be able to speak clearly. But what if they don't? What if they end up having the spoken language skills of a four year old, when they are supposed to be learning how to read?

jackiesolorzano

Maybe in your area it is easier to get CART but in ours it is not. From what I have been told it is quite easy to get CART in college. It is at the high school level that it is not easy. Out of 8 high schools that are currently using CART only one high school uses it from their signing students. The funding for that program came from RIT. The other 7 high school use CART for their oral deaf/HH students.

From my understanding there isn't a lot of in-services, I think my friend told me that they have to attend 4 a year and they have never had one on CART.

rick48

What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate. She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive. She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle. Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

jillio

You're a certified teacher of the deaf. Don't you have to attend in-service? And, yeah, there's grant money out there to fund the programs. What the hell do the other high schools do for their signing students. If they have CART available for the oral students, why not for the signing students. Unless of course, they are oral programs.

jillio

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

rick48

What opportunities?: employment, education, family relationships, social to name just a few.

I know that the concept that there are many well adjusted and happy kids who just happen to be oral is too difficult for you to understand but that is the price you pay for always thinking that you are right and that there is only one way to raise a deaf child. Perhaps if you were not so intolerant and close-minded in your views, your comprehension would increase.

Also, as is patently evident from other issues regarding the oral deaf community: you just don't get it. Parents, such as myself and others on this board, do not need to "justify" our choices to anyone and certainly not to you. When we relate real life examples of what are children are doing or have accomplished, it is not to "justify" our choices to you. Talk about being egocentric! Do you really think we need or seek your approval and/or understanding of the choices we made for our children? When we relate our stories and experiences about our children it is to help others who may be considering various options for either themselves or for their children and to combat the misinformation that still exists.

rick48

I do not read too much into that, especially as it is necessary to do so if they want to argue against an award of attorney's fees.

No, I am not Jackie's attorney, just a supportive parent who cares about the education of children.

Truth? You can't handle the truth -JN Truth is that you cannot stand to give credit to anyone who does not agree with you. Jackie stood up to you and now you take every opportunity to belittle her. You are so transparent.

You just do not get it and never will.

jillio

I would certianly hope you don't need my approval, because you aren't going to get it. And the biggest misconception out there is that oral children suceed more, and have more opportunity than signing children. Or that oral children are better educated and more integrated into the hearing world. Or that oral children will have more opportunity and better relationships. In short, everything you preach. You are the one that brought your children to this board. Boo, hoo, you didn't get the response you were looking for.

jillio

I'm not the one who fails to get it. Despite evidence against the strictly oral appoach, you hang onto an outdated philosophy that is responsible for the undereducation and isolation of deaf children for the last 200 years. How much longer is it going to take to get the message across?

BTW...have you made that donation to St. Rita yet, or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth on that one too?

deafdyke

Rick, those are all very subjective and not really solid. You're insistitating that Sign kids are unemployed/on disabilty, poorly educated etc.
But I know many Sign folks who are employed (and not just as baggers or at Burger King or Wal-Mart) and I know many signers who are Harvard level educated. It's just that a lot of hearing parents tend to fall for the theory that oral only is a tool that totally equalizes dhh kids.
You know if oral only DID equalize dhh people, then they wouldn't need accomondations like CART, special ed, notetaking, etc etc.