Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I do not confuse equal access. Equal access means that my daughter would have the same access as all the other students to all the information presented in class. Now since it is hard for her to hear everything especially when more then 1 person speaks at a time she does not have equal access, she cannot hear as the other students can.
And is this situation just now occuring, or hasn't it been an ongoing problem for the entire time she has been in school?

I know you do not agree with me and this really is fine with.
Never said I disagreed with you--that is the interpretation you arrived at when you got defensive over the sign issue.
I have spoke to several TC teachers and many interpeters. There is not a sign for every spoken word.
No there is not a sign for every spoken word, nor is there an English transalation for every signed concept. Nor an English translation for every Spanish word, or French word. That is why ASL is a separate language from English. However, there is a sign for every concept represented by the English word. Having taken 2 ASL classes, I would think you would have been taught that. And the issue is not word, but concept.


An interpeter cannot sign everything being said in a class especially when there is a class discussion where students are debating.
Then you haven't run across very good interpreters. An interpreter is supposed to sign all the the spoken content in a classroom, and the ambient noise, as well.
If you want to agree with me or not, it doesn't matter because I know it is true. You are not deaf yourself, so your point doesn't matter to me.
And neither are you.

I have spoke to many deaf adults that only sign and their choice would be to have an interpeter and CART at the same time because they do miss out information when they just have an interpeter.

Don't have a problem with that. I reccommend such myself, as the signing student will get concept from the interpreted classroom material in order that the CART transcript makes more sense. And school districts are usually more willing to provide CART and notetaking services along with an interpreter when they understand that the student is using their vision during class, and therefore are unable to use their vision to also take note. The problem here is that you say your daughter functions orally in class, and therefore, is free to use her vision for notetaking and for watching what is going on with the other students. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying that's the way the school district sees it. And frankly, I'll say that I would say this to all parents who have placed a child in an oral placement, and then wants to complain that they aren't getting equal access. The whole point behind the oral philosophy is that speaking and hearing are the way for the deaf to become independent and to provide more opportunities. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect, as your case so clearly demonstrates. And it is not you as a person that I disagree with. It is the oral only philosophy and the harm it creates for deaf children. My problem with you is that you want to complain that your daughter is not receiving equal access, and at the same time, refuse to see how insisting that she be oral, and in an oral placement educationally, has contributed to the problems she is now experiencing.
My information is directly from deaf adults and interpeters in the school system.

Originally Posted by rick48

Why did you choose to name only Jackie and myself? Why not your pal, Jillio, who incidentally is the only one arguing with Jackie and everyone else. Why not name her?

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

Shel,
I have said this before it is not I who have made this issue a us vs. them. Remember when Pek made the comment about your grammar. I hate bringing this up again because I know you have both resolved your issues regarding this. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue. Do you remember how Tousi came down on my grammar issue once he/she thought I left the site. That right there is a clear sign about us vs. them not started by me. Below are comments made by people on this site regarding our due process case. Why should my daughter change who she is so she could make use of an interpeter. There is logical solution. If other high school in our area use CART why can my daughter not receive this accommodation.

Aleser made this comment, Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.
__________________
Deafdyke made this comment, Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

I wish people won't make it a us vs. them issue. I wish we could work together to ensure both signing and oral deaf kids receive the accommadations that they need to ensure equal access.

Shel, you are right you were in support of CART for my daughter and other deaf kids.

It really doesn't matter what other people think of me and my choices, I will continue our fight to get CART for my daughter and other deaf kids in our area.
Tomorrow morning, I will be a guest on a local radio station to talk about our battles. In the afternoon, I will be speaking at a commission of disabilities meeting. In case you care I can assure that I will not be talking about oral vs. signing education. My sole purpose is to talk about equal access and how this can be reach through CART.

Originally Posted by shel90

Gee...didnt at the begining of the thread, before Jackie came in here, we were all debating about how her daughter should be able to recieve the CART and how the public schools are terrible about providing the max services for deaf/hh students? Now, Rick and Jackie are saying that if Jackie had gotten an ASL terp, everyone would come to her support. What is that about? This is becoming a little childish here.

We were having a nice discussion about legal systems, educational policies and stuff but what is this crap about who is supporting who because this person is oral or ASL? Grow up people!

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

Shel,
I have said this before it is not I who have made this issue a us vs. them. Remember when Pek made the comment about your grammar. I hate bringing this up again because I know you have both resolved your issues regarding this. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue. Do you remember how Tousi came down on my grammar issue once he/she thought I left the site. That right there is a clear sign about us vs. them not started by me. Below are comments made by people on this site regarding our due process case. Why should my daughter change who she is so she could make use of an interpeter. There is logical solution. If other high school in our area use CART why can my daughter not receive this accommodation.

Aleser made this comment, Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.
__________________
Deafdyke made this comment, Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

I wish people won't make it a us vs. them issue. I wish we could work together to ensure both signing and oral deaf kids receive the accommadations that they need to ensure equal access.

Shel, you are right you were in support of CART for my daughter and other deaf kids.

It really doesn't matter what other people think of me and my choices, I will continue our fight to get CART for my daughter and other deaf kids in our area.
Tomorrow morning, I will be a guest on a local radio station to talk about our battles. In the afternoon, I will be speaking at a commission of disabilities meeting. In case you care I can assure that I will not be talking about oral vs. signing education. My sole purpose is to talk about equal access and how this can be reach through CART.

Originally Posted by jillio

There is nothing wrong with CART. We use it at the university where I work. It is an excellent service. Shel or I neither one have said that there is anything wrong with CART. Re: providing access to the lessons. The only thing that was pointed out here is that as jackie reports that her daughter is maintaining an excellent gpa--above average--then the school system is going to say that they have provided access as evidenced by her grades. The point shel and I were making is that these issues need to be addressed way before high school, and the fallacy that school systems rely on to avoid providing services. And the school system's main concern is not the student's happiness. It's how to best comply with the ADA using the least amount of funding.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.

Originally Posted by jillio

Of course I am serious. It happens all the time to justify not providing additional services.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Sounds like a law suit to me... oh... wait a minute... what thread am I in again.

Originally Posted by jillio

It is all about legal interpretation. If the deaf child is performing at an academic level that allows her to achieve an above average gpa, then she obviously has access to the curriculum. Otherwise, she would be failing.

Originally Posted by jillio

And an above average gpa means that she is achieving at a standard that surpasses many of thehearing students in the same school. Didn't say it was right, but only that it happens all the time, and it is a direct result of the language ambiguities in the ADA. And who was the ADA written by--legal experts. You don'tthink those ambiguities are in there on purpose?

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That doesn't mean that it's the school that provided access. Seems to me they can either prove they provided access or that can't allthough I'm quite sure it's more complicated than that. Shouldn't be but I'm sure it is.
Geeze and I thought I was cynical.

Originally Posted by shel90

It happened to me at my school growing up...that's why I said it is nothing new as usual with the public schools doing stuff like this. Doesnt make it right and it needs to be changed.

Originally Posted by jillio

Absolutely it needs to be changed, and that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, all we can do is advocate, and manipulate the system to get what is needed. Sometimes, that requires a change in parental attitude, because even though these orally based parents don't want to see it, it is the attitude that oralism provides greater access that hurts them in these cases.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

so are you saying you believe this is a result of an oralist agenda in the educational system? Do you believe that the shcool system is not providing these services because they don't think it's needed in an oral environment? Please advise

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

maybe that happens in pockets. I don't get the impression from my sons IEP or what is actually happening at his school that there is an oralist agenda. In fact he spends only about an hour a week on speech. That doesn't seem to be representitave of an oralist agenda to me.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

maybe that happens in pockets. I don't get the impression from my sons IEP or what is actually happening at his school that there is an oralist agenda. In fact he spends only about an hour a week on speech. That doesn't seem to be representitave of an oralist agenda to me.

Originally Posted by shel90

I dont think a majority of teachers who work in the public schools are being oralists on purpose..they just dont have the background training on deaf education so they make a lot of misassumptions about how to meet deaf children's needs in the mainstreamed programs. Most of them make the assumptions that because a deaf children can speak or do well in classes they are getting equal access to information as their hearing counterparts.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.

Originally Posted by jillio

Of course I am serious. It happens all the time to justify not providing additional services.

Originally Posted by shel90

It happened to me at my school growing up...that's why I said it is nothing new as usual with the public schools doing stuff like this. Doesnt make it right and it needs to be changed.

Originally Posted by jillio

And, that's how they prove it--through gpa and academic achievement. Yeah, try working with the system for awhile and you become a cynical as I am. But when I try to point out to parents where their attitudes are contributing to decisions being made regarding services provided, I'm the bad guy. You can't beat the system, as the old saying goes, you have to learn to manipulate it to your advantage--or more accurately, to the advantage of deaf students.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Shel you are so right. It doesn't make it right. And I am going to do everything in my power to change it. I went to commission on disabilities meeting today. This commission is going to draft a letter and take it personally to the school district. I do not know if it will make a difference but it will put pressure on the school district.

Originally Posted by jillio

Absolutely it needs to be changed, and that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, all we can do is advocate, and manipulate the system to get what is needed. Sometimes, that requires a change in parental attitude, because even though these orally based parents don't want to see it, it is the attitude that oralism provides greater access that hurts them in these cases.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

so are you saying you believe this is a result of an oralist agenda in the educational system? Do you believe that the shcool system is not providing these services because they don't think it's needed in an oral environment? Please advise

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Jillo if I ever lead you to believe that I think oralism provides greater access I am sorry about that. I am not really sure if oralism provides greater access, it would really depend on the situation. I think at times it can, but the reason we choose the oral path was because we thought it would give them more opportunties.
I think Shel mention once how things need to change so that kids that just sign had these same opportunties. I agree but I cannot change that. What I can do these help my children in the world that we do live in.

Originally Posted by shel90

I dont think a majority of teachers who work in the public schools are being oralists on purpose..they just dont have the background training on deaf education so they make a lot of misassumptions about how to meet deaf children's needs in the mainstreamed programs. Most of them make the assumptions that because a deaf children can speak or do well in classes they are getting equal access to information as their hearing counterparts.

Originally Posted by shel90

would be nice if it made a difference nationally..