shel90

Gee...didnt at the begining of the thread, before Jackie came in here, we were all debating about how her daughter should be able to recieve the CART and how the public schools are terrible about providing the max services for deaf/hh students? Now, Rick and Jackie are saying that if Jackie had gotten an ASL terp, everyone would come to her support. What is that about? This is becoming a little childish here.

We were having a nice discussion about legal systems, educational policies and stuff but what is this crap about who is supporting who because this person is oral or ASL? Grow up people!

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jillio

Then why the lawsuit and media attention?

jillio

Once again, it has turned into an "us" against "them" situation. Why do some people insist on becoming emotional and interpreting everything as a personal attack on them as parents?

jillio

So, he didn't charge for his other case, either? How is it that you can start a counter suit at the federal level when the school system has not gone to the federal level? Suits and countersuits are heard in the same court. And only in the civil courts. Are yu saying that you have filed a civil suit against the school system? For what?

jillio

Make a doantion to St. Rita's and email me confirmation.

rockdrummer

I commend you for your efforts and wish you the best moving forward. The technology that I refer to is called VR or Voice recognition. I'ts been around for a while but as you can imagine it's tough to perfect with all of the differences in how folks speak. In my opinion, the downside to strictly keyboard input is that you must have a body there transcribing. The advantage to VR is that all you need is a computer. Until the VR technology is more accurate perhaps keyboard is the only other way. Hey, at least someone is doing something about it.

rockdrummer

ok... now I gotta know... What? Did Rick loose a bet to you Jillio? Don't leave me hangin!!

jillio

YEP, earlier inthis thread. We were discussing whether deaf voices were recognizable, and pek1 challenged me sayign that I could not pick his out. rick jumped ont he bandwagon, certain that pek was right. After a phone call with pek, I outlined the distinctive qualities that I heard in his voice, and he admitted that I had nailed it. So, with pek admitting that I coulod hear the deaf qualities, rick lost out on a bet that he jumped into.

rockdrummer

So now Rick is gonna donate a couple mil to St. Rita's.. THATS AWSOME!! It does go to show you he's a stand up guy. Good for you Rick! And good for you too Jillio!

jillio

LOL......more like 20 bucks. And yep, he did own up to his bet. Admirable quality.

jag

Do you really think that keeping a full time LPN/RN on staff with pay and benefits is any cheaper then getting appropriate accomodations or a deaf/hoh child or ANY handicapped child? Case law shows that the support CAN be won.

But it's not easy and many parents back down and aren't going to go the distance. I myself finally got disgusted enough and went found a different path for my child, it's what the school wanted from the start(let me clarify this statement, the school didn't want to have to deal with my mentally disabled daughter from the start), I have no illusions about that. Those that do dig and and fight usually get what they want when they district finds out they won't back down. Sure some need to go the distance, as in this case. But you should all be hopeing that this is settled in favor of the deaf/hoh CI user as it will give parents following the case law to support their requests from the start. Without people willing to do the hard work, no progress will be made.

jag

ACtually it wasn't really a truely unbiased thing tho. You knew bfore you called him that he was deaf so were really on the out look to hear what you wanted to hear. To be truely a fair assessment I would think that the call should have been announous and such. In other words it would have been more interesting to see if you had the same results if he had had a friend answer the phone in his name. Whatever.

I do think that the reference all the time to 'deaf' voices is rather silly. Even hearing people have different qualities to their voice. I sound like me.

shel90

Nope..not cheaper..probably more expensive. However, due to the child's fragile health and risk of serious injury or even death WILL make the school provide whatever needs to ensure that doesnt happen cuz the schools dont want to be held liable.

However, a deaf child who has CIs who is performing on his/her grade level or better is more likely viewed differently and not as a liability.

Hope that makes sense?

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rick48

Why did you choose to name only Jackie and myself? Why not your pal, Jillio, who incidentally is the only one arguing with Jackie and everyone else. Why not name her?

rick48

I do not know why you do, so maybe you can you tell us why you do, Jillio?

rick48

LOL, if I write a check for a couple of million to St. rita's tell them not to drop it for there is no telling how high that check will bounce!

deafdyke

Well AG Bell promotes listening and talking and mainstreaming as things that give dhh kids complete and total equality in the hearing world, instead of simply as another useful tool in the toolbox. There are some members who are pro full toolbox, but overall it does seem like AG Bell is VERY audist about how oral speech and listening skills alledgely give you access to the hearing world. Their attitude as an organization is that things like Sign and other tools are a "crutch"/barrier to acheiveing in the hearing world. They push about how wonderful and glorious it is that your child doesn't need "special needs" things..........If you don't believe me look at the languange used in ads in Volta Voices. I know that on the lists I'm on (and yes I know that ancdedote isn't the plural of data) that the oral folks will be all "yeah! Enroll wittle Smashlie into oral programs, and mainstream her! She'll be a part of the hearing world. She doesn't "need" sign. The age of Sign is "over"......and then in their next breath they start complaining "Oh we don't have anything equalivant to a 'terp! Oh we're so not totally a part of the hearing world. I've never felt like I belonged totally in the hearing world! I have few friends, I have no social life! I wish I'd learned Sign early on .....boo hoo hoo"
I totally think that ALL kids should have equal access to the curriculm. BUT, your daughter IS doing wicked well. It is NOT a matter of methodology.......it's basicly b/c your daughter is doing very well already. It would be different if she was a C student.....but she's already doing VERY well. THAT'S why we're saying that C=Print as an accomondation is overkill........it just seems like you're one of those parents who want their kids to get an edge so they can get into Harvard or something.
Oh, and jag, I wasn't talking about costs. The nursing is VITAL for a medically fragile student. Without the nursing, the student could DIE. Whereas here, it's simply "oh wittle Smashlie isn't doing wicked wicked well!" They are ALREADY doing VERY well with a notetaker. Almost ANYONE I know who's dhh would have been pleased as punch to do as well as your daughter's doing with simply a notetaker. Quit complaining...............I have hypotonia (like cerebal palsy, which in turn affects my fine motor skills) and I'm LD but I didn't get a notetaker til I was in my sophmore year of high school (and trust me.....the school acted like it had given me the gold standard)

jackiesolorzano

I never said it was a counter suit. We are suing but I never said why. I am not an attorney so I do not know why we filed at federal level, I just know that we did. I let our attorney make the decision on where and why since he is the expert.

jackiesolorzano

When we received the verdict, I kept thinking how this is going to help other deaf students in our SELPA. This is not only going to help my daughter but her friends and my son.

jackiesolorzano

If I remember correctly one of the main reasons I joined was because someone said that my daughter should learn more sign language so the school could give her an interpeter. I thought but why should my daughter change who she is to make it easier on the school.
It is not me who made it a us vs. them, it is everybody else.

jackiesolorzano

You seem to be very resentful of something and I am not sure of what it is. I am really sorry that you have had such a hard time in school. I really do not know much about AG Bell. I have read the Volta review. I actually went to them for help when we started on this whole CART thing but they were no use to us. You mention over and over again about C-Print. We are not fighting for C-Print, we are fighting for real time captioning.
The law states that my daughter has the right to equal access to the curriulum. A notetaker is not equal access. My daughter does well in school because she is dedicated and a hard worker. She also has a mother that is a teacher and pre-teaches and post teaches what she learns in school. I think most of you would agree that a lot d/hh students have limited background information on subjects. In order for this to not happen with my children we have found different ways of helping them in this area. Our family trips were central around what the coming year themes were at school. So when they study about the government went to our state captiol. We it was mission time we went to the missions, they were assigned. When they learned about the great valley in California we took a trip to the great valley. This is why my daughter and son do overall well in school. It is not the schools that have given them an edge it their home life.
The other thing is in order for CART to be of help to a student they have to be able to read well if not it is not very helpful. So if my daughter was doing poorly in school and was not reading close to grade level, the school district would say it would not benefit her.

jillio

Of course you sound like you, and every other deaf person sounds like them. But there are some diction issues, resonance issues, and tonal quality issues that are peculiar to a deaf/hh person's voice. And to have a friend answer in his name would have been dishonest. If you will go back and read my reply, I did not simply say pek had a "deaf voce". I conceeded that his diction was excellent, but there were two consonant with which he had problems, as well as the rounded resonance. And no, I did not go in with preconceived ideas. Trust me, pek had one of the clearest voices I've heard, and he obviously worked very hard to achieve it. But there were still tell tale signs, and I simply noticed them and pointed them out to him, as he most likely doesn't hear them himself. And this was a challenge between pek and myself. Rick already made the mistake of jumping into it and lost his bet, based not on my assessment, but on pek's admission.

jillio

But, as has already been pointed out, your daughter learning sign language would not provide a benefit tot he school, but to her.

jillio

You confuse equal access--they consider that they have provided equal access by allowing her into a mainstream situation in the same classes that her hearing peers are in. The issue is one of reasonable accomodations, and as long as a student is doing eell, it is considered that reasonable accommodations have been given.

shel90

Talking about the quote how everyone would be supportive of Jackie if she was fighting for an ASL terp instead of CART and I pointed out that it was brought up by both of u and how at the beginning, everyone was saying that her daughter should get a CART and siding with her daughter not the school district. Then I read that comment and it was like..huh? Where did that come from?

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rockdrummer

What's wrong with CART? Is'nt the objective to ensure the student is able to get the lesson? Why does it matter what means that is accomplished with as long as the end result is met and the student is happy.

shel90

You are so right no doubt in mind that if I was fighting for interpeter, I am sure everyone would have come to my rescue good thing we do not need to be rescued.

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

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--- Anonymous

jackiesolorzano

This was a comment that I was referring to that kinda ticked me off cuz many of us, yes including me, took her and her daughter's side at the beginning of the thread with the CART issue. Many of us said that her daughter would benefit from it and how it would help her. Then, this comment was made which was why I made my comment about making it us vs. them cuz I didnt appreciate it since many of us supported jackie's fight at the beginning of this thread.

See my post #32 and the other posts made by other AD members before that supporting Jackie and her daughter's fight to get a CART.

Shel,
I have said this before it is not I who have made this issue a us vs. them. Remember when Pek made the comment about your grammar. I hate bringing this up again because I know you have both resolved your issues regarding this. Do you remember how many people came to your rescue. Do you remember how Tousi came down on my grammar issue once he/she thought I left the site. That right there is a clear sign about us vs. them not started by me. Below are comments made by people on this site regarding our due process case. Why should my daughter change who she is so she could make use of an interpeter. There is logical solution. If other high school in our area use CART why can my daughter not receive this accommodation.

Aleser made this comment, Personally, I'm on the schools side. She doesn't have any problem understanding her -teachers- according to the article, just students and side conversations.. some districts hardly have money for text books, but tax money should go to spending 30 thousand dollars a year to make sure she can take part in class jokes? No. If the problem was understanding academic content, I would be okay with her requesting such a service.
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Deafdyke made this comment, Well Nesmuth, if oral deaf and hoh folks learned Sign, then they could take advantage of 'terps.
That is why I am so hardcore about even "oral sucesses" learning sign........that way they could take advantage of 'terps and not have to sue in court for things like notetakers etc.

I wish people won't make it a us vs. them issue. I wish we could work together to ensure both signing and oral deaf kids receive the accommadations that they need to ensure equal access.

Shel, you are right you were in support of CART for my daughter and other deaf kids.

It really doesn't matter what other people think of me and my choices, I will continue our fight to get CART for my daughter and other deaf kids in our area.
Tomorrow morning, I will be a guest on a local radio station to talk about our battles. In the afternoon, I will be speaking at a commission of disabilities meeting. In case you care I can assure that I will not be talking about oral vs. signing education. My sole purpose is to talk about equal access and how this can be reach through CART.

jackiesolorzano

I do not confuse equal access. Equal access means that my daughter would have the same access as all the other students to all the information presented in class. Now since it is hard for her to hear everything especially when more then 1 person speaks at a time she does not have equal access, she cannot hear as the other students can.

I know you do not agree with me and this really is fine with. I have spoke to several TC teachers and many interpeters. There is not a sign for every spoken word. An interpeter cannot sign everything being said in a class especially when there is a class discussion where students are debating. If you want to agree with me or not, it doesn't matter because I know it is true. You are not deaf yourself, so your point doesn't matter to me. I have spoke to many deaf adults that only sign and their choice would be to have an interpeter and CART at the same time because they do miss out information when they just have an interpeter. My information is directly from deaf adults and interpeters in the school system.

jillio

There is nothing wrong with CART. We use it at the university where I work. It is an excellent service. Shel or I neither one have said that there is anything wrong with CART. Re: providing access to the lessons. The only thing that was pointed out here is that as jackie reports that her daughter is maintaining an excellent gpa--above average--then the school system is going to say that they have provided access as evidenced by her grades. The point shel and I were making is that these issues need to be addressed way before high school, and the fallacy that school systems rely on to avoid providing services. And the school system's main concern is not the student's happiness. It's how to best comply with the ADA using the least amount of funding.