Originally Posted by shel90

Hey Jackie...I went back over the whole thread and I couldnt find anything that I said criticizing u and your decisions. In fact, I found many of my posts applauding u so I have no idea what u are talking about that I made u feel bad? It looked like we were having a good dialogue and some disagreements here and there but nowhere did I say that u were a bad parent and bad teacher so I am What was that I said was so bad that turned u off? Some things u said I felt offended by but I let it go and continued the discussion or debate with u. I thought we were having a good rapport going on..I must have missed something.

When u expressed your feelings, I thought I better read back to find where I said insulting things to u but I found none.

Originally Posted by shel90

Dont u think it is ironic that many hearing parents of hearing babies take sign classes so their babies can express themselves at a younger age? My 20 month son is hearing (maybe slightly HOH) and he hasnt spoken 1 word yet but signs approximately around 30 words. He signs all the time to his hearing grandparents and they are frustrated because it seems that he prefers to use sign to express himself and they dont know any signs. They keep complaining that they want him to start talking but it seems like he is not interested in talking.

Originally Posted by deafdyke

If she's doing so well then how come she NEEDS CART? I mean it just seems overkill for a high acheiving dhh kid to have CART........

The law states that children with special needs should have equal access to the curriulum. Yes, my daughter is smart and we work at home really hard but she does not have equal access. In our area 8 other high school students are using CART, if it is already is being used why should my daughter not be able to use it. One of the requirements in order to use CART is for that student to be reading close to grade level. So if she wasn't doing well in school, the school district would tell us NO because she doesn't have the reading abilities to fully use CART

She should just depend on notetakers.

A notetaker cannot come close to what CART can do. A CART provider types at least 220 words per minute, a notetaker no matter how good cannot do this. The other thing CART does is provide her with that information at the moment, which would help her be part of classroom discussions. Notes are not given until after class.
Or maybe even use a 'terp. A LOT of orally trained kids have to use 'terps in the classroom. It just seems like this is a typical "AG Bell" style parent who is whining and complaining b/c there's really nothing comparable to 'terps for oral kids. Well you know........it just goes to prove our point. Oral skills do not equalize 100% dhh kids, but yet organizations like AG Bell make hearing parents like you think it does!
Oh and Jackie, you meant to say that your kid has MINIMAL accomondations. Basicly 508 style accomondations, rather then remedial "resource room" style accomondations.


Yes, we all know about the papers that claim that Sign impedes oral skills. However, have you ever heard of a thing called bias?

I agree with you 100% that is the point I was trying to make that you can find research articles on whatever point you want to make. You can find many research articles on how oral is best and also on how Bi-Bi is best or whatever approach you think is best. My point if you want to find a research article supporting your point you will find it.

I bet the authors of those papers were names like Moog, Fletcher and all those other pro oral only researchers. They have a personal bias against Sign. They were taught to see it as a "crutch"
No matter that an orally skilled kid may have the vocab of a kindergartener and syntax of someone who speaks English as a second language........the kid with oral skills is ALWAYS more supioeor to the kid who may be bilingal.

I personallly do not think that oral is superior. What I think oral can do for my children is give them more opportunities

God, imagine if Sign was promoted as dhh kids being able to grow up BILINGAL?!?! So ironic that a lot of the parents who buy into oral only would absolutly jump at the chance for their kids to grow up bilingal in English and Spanish or English and another language?
Ever notice that a lot of the pro oral folks are often the same ones who are "English Only" types?
I know that I am not like that. I was raised with 3 languages in our home. My father knew about 6 languages before he passed away


We're not bashing you. Maybe you just feel that way b/c you're now thinking "Oh well maybe there is something to the bi-bi or "full toolbox" approach. It's great that you're not an extreme oralist. FAB. MANY of us here think that oral skills should be pushed *gasp* They are useful. We reconize that there are some kids who have done really really well orally. But we're just asking and hypothesizing that maybe a better approach would be a FULL TOOLBOX approach!

Originally Posted by jillio

And those that are threatened by it usually have not earned anything comparable.

Originally Posted by jillio

I see. You would prefer that they go without services and therefore, are inadequately educated. Shame on you!

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I have read about the Bi-Bi, it is not available here in California. I am very happy with the choices I have made so far.

Originally Posted by rick48

Great and it appears that you are a concerned, caring and loving parent and your children are blessed to have you.

Please stay around, you have a lot to offer and don't let one or two people try to run you off this forum.
Rick

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

I have decided to stick around. Thank you

Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog

English is one of hardest language to be perfect at, anyway.

Originally Posted by shel90

Jackie,

In my professional life, I dont speak out my opinions to nor I criticize the parents for their decisions like I do here because it is not my place to do so. I do tell them the benefits of the BiBi approach and up to them to take it or not. If they decide not to, then I just wish them luck but in my head I am really praying that their children do ok. My heart is for the deaf children. Here, on AllDeaf, I can express my feelings on the risk of an oral-only approach for deaf children duiring the critical years of language development because this is a public forum and everyone has the right to express their opinions or beliefs. This is a place where I can freely express whatever I desire with the effort of not personally insulting anyone. I do admit that a few times, I have insulted some people but if someone tells me and shows me where I insulted them then I will apologize. I am sorry if my comments or whatever made u feel terrible but I dont feel that I purposely went out of my way to insult you. I felt that I was disagreeing to your beliefs on which educational approaches to use.

This is how I feel about that particular approach for young deaf children. If the child feels more comfortable in an oral only environment when they are older as long as they are performing at their academci level and can gain access to all information to everything, then by all means go for it just like with your children. Like u said about us not being able to change your views, you cant change mine.

I dont believe in the oral-only apporoach due to several reasons..one being that I prefer not to use it on young deaf children who are developing language because we dont know how much they are picking up or how much they are not picking up. You say technology is changing and that deaf children are able to "hear" better than before. If that's the case, then why does my school still get numrous of kids with digital HAs and CIs being referred to our school after falling behind in oral education due to not understanding everything being said around them? Last year, we got around 10 kids ranging from PrK to 8th grade referred to us..in ONE school year! U probably would say it is due to lack of parental involvemnt but ironically, some of those kids' parents are very involved with their education. They admitted that they thought the oral-only approach was the way to go. Do I criticize them for their earlier decisions? No, but I do criticize the specialists who told them that the oral-only approach was the only way to ensure their success. Oooops..look at what happened to them. I have seen the changes in self-esteem and movtivation levels in some of those children when they discovered that, with signing, they have access to all information. Yes, I am talking about children who have been implanted since they were babies. It makes me wonder if they had signing along with oral language from the beginning, would they be performing on their academic age level istead of 2 or more years behind? I see the difference between those kids and the kids who had been in our program since infants. The latter group is doing better. Yes, some of them do have oral sills along with signing skills.

Along with recent research on the BiBi approach, my deaf ed training especially in linguistics and language acquisition, my own personal experiences, and personal observation of the students I have worked with in the past 7 years in different educational settings are the reasons and justification for my beliefs against the oral-only approach. In having that view, my concerns for the children, and wanting them to have the best of both (yes, oral language included), I feel that I am in the right place. If you and others feel that by my believing in the way I do, I am someone that all parents of deaf chidlren should avoid or shouldnt be exposed to, then that's your feeling and I wont hold it against you. I would never say something like that about you to any parents of deaf children despite our differing views because that would be immature of me. I would tell the parents to meet you and get your point of view and up to them if they want to follow your philosophy. All I know is that I feel and strongly believe that the oral-only approach is too risky now. U feel that by introducing signs to young deaf children while they are developing language is too risky on their speech skills, while I, on the other hand, feel that by not introducting signs to them is too risky on their language and social/emotional development. It all comes down to what's important to each of us hence the disagreement happening here. Maybe later it will be less but as of now, I am still seeing too many children struggling with literacy skills due to missing out years of language development and I do not like it. If that makes me an awful person, then it makes many others awful too cuz so many other professionals in this field share the same view as I do and they are both deaf and hearing people. Some are fully active in Deaf culture while others are not. I feel this debate has nothing to do with Deaf culture and I dont know why u and others think that way.

I cant believe that u are using Jillo and I as the respresentatives of the Deaf culture as a whole. It would be like taking a few Spanish speakking people who do not believe in the same things as I do as representative for the whole Spanish speaking community and saying that I refuse to be involved in it all all due to them. That would be generalizing. In fact, my ex hubby was born in Mexico and my daughter is Mexican who is fluent in ASL, English and Spanish. By being trilingual, she has more opportunities. The same thing goes with two of my deaf friends..one from Puerto Rico and the other who is Mexican born in AZ. They are fluent in all 3 languages and I think that is awesome! That's another advantage of the BiBi approach..the deaf children become blingual or even more when they master all the languages.

Regarding to you comment about me moving to another state simply because the deaf community there didnt accept me at first is a very wrong assumption. At that time, I had a house, my ex had a good job, and the majority of my family resided in AZ so I would never move out of state for that reason. That would be stupid and cowardly of me. I moved cuz I wanted to go to grad school at Gally since I felt I had a lot to learn about ASL and the Deaf culture before I could become a teacher for the Deaf. Heck, even there I faced discrimination from some members of the deaf community due to not being strong ASL, but instead of running away, I stuck it out. Life is not perfect and shit happens. However, it was the best decision of my life but I dont go around telling deaf/hoh people they need to go to Gally. The deaf community in AZ didnt accept me right away cuz I looked down on them growing up so it was partly my fault. Now, they fully accept me and the past is forgotten. I know that not everyone is gonna accept everyone in any culture or community and that's a fact of life. Up to people if they want to stand up for themselves and find those who can accept them or not.

If u feel in your heart that you are doing the right thing, that is your perogative. There will be some who wont agree with your views just as there will be some who wont agree with mine. That's life.

I never called u an extreme oralist even thought I did think that at first until later throughout the debates that I learned I was wrong about you. The only thing I disagree with u on is when to introduce sign language to children and oral-only for all young deaf children. I dont know why something like that makes people call me a deaf militant or whatever (referring to previous threads on other debates). If I was, i would have said ABSULOTELY NOT to any oral language exposure of any kind to all deaf/hoh children. I am not that stupid.

People who have strong beliefs and stick by them tend to have enemies and I know that there are some AD members here that dont like me but this is not a popularity contest for me. This is about the education of deaf children and the elimination of poor literacy of deaf children. I dont care if u and others think badly of me. It would be nice if we all can agree to disagree but it seems not to be working cuz for some reason, people start taking each other's comments too personal.

Originally Posted by Tousi

Well, Jackie, you sure said a mouthful; I was half expecting you to come back, anyway. I don't know if you noticed my one caveat which was my expression that I was impressed with what you have done as a mother. I think you lucked out in choosing the oral only approach while, scuttling, intentionally or not, the tandem approach of ASL and for that I am happy for you and your child. But that's just the view from the emotional side.

Some of us have been trying to look at this from an educational strategy point of view and it's been difficult for me and some others. Since you are a trained educator, I hold you to a higher standard. This is the Internet and it behooves us to put our best face forward. The nice thing about this box (computer) is that we can talk about subjects whenever we want to and get all of the benefits of the immediacy that this brings. But it should not be an excuse to write without thinking about grammar, structure and spelling because we want the widest, most diverse audience possible to understand what we are saying. Obviously, I am not talking about the rare misspelling, punctuation mark, etc.

From a professional, I want and rightfully expect the care and attention given to the subject. Absent this, you would not be getting my business; in this case, my child. I would not get your business but Shel who was also criticized for the same thing would. Good thing, you are not my employer. I can honestly say that I have never had problems finding a job. There has been several times that I have been offered a job when I wasn't looking. Just this year alone, I had 2 offers without looking.

Just as the first thing you should do when going to a restaurant is to check out it's restroom. If it is dirty, what am I to think what the kitchen must be like?

Like I said in the above post, my comment was not personal
I am not sure how you expect me to not take it personally if you single out my grammar mistakes not anyone elses. I have seen many different grammar mistakes on this site but you only mention mine. and I refuse to cower to your "shame, shame, shame game", something the deaf in this country are way past fed up putting up with. So, when we are talking about educational strategies about children NOT yours, grow some thick skin cuz the heat comes with the kitchen.

Originally Posted by BearBeauty

I have to say, personally, I don't care about grammer.. I don't expect anybody here to have perfect grammer or know everything about it. I know that there are educators, and other people who work hard at their job, and I can understand needing a break after teaching all day. that sometimes you "throw out the grammer books". Guys, remember.. this is a forum, not a meeting of Grammical Perfectionist Annoynomus. I know i prolly spelled that wrong, but everyone gets my point. So can't we just agree that we are not required to be perfect on a forum, for crepes sake?

I can understand holding a teacher to a higher standard, but remember.. Teachers, like the rest of us, are only HUMAN! they are allowed their mistakes, it's how we all learn and grow.

Originally Posted by shel90

Whoa about the grammar issue and people taking sides!!!! Jackie, why would u do an experiment like that to see if anyone takes your side by making grammar errors on purpose? The reason those people defended me cuz I have been a member here on AD for a while and some members have gotten to know me. If I was new, I am sure nobody would defend me.

In fact when I first joined, I brought up a business and many people attacked me..not one person defended me. Those who have attacked me, we have made our peace with each other and moved on.

I really dont know what to say about this issue..really, it is not a big deal to me. If someone wants to criticize me, I will make a witty remark back.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Shel, I just wanted to prove a point that since most people see me as an oralist here they have a different opinion of what is acceptable for people like me.
The other thing that I really thing is wrong is that Tousi waited until she/he thought I had left the site. Another thing it looks like we both have the same level of education and the same years of experience so why Tousi have higher expectations for me.

Originally Posted by Tousi

Well, Jackie, you sure said a mouthful; I was half expecting you to come back, anyway. I don't know if you noticed my one caveat which was my expression that I was impressed with what you have done as a mother. I think you lucked out in choosing the oral only approach while, scuttling, intentionally or not, the tandem approach of ASL and for that I am happy for you and your child. But that's just the view from the emotional side.

Some of us have been trying to look at this from an educational strategy point of view and it's been difficult for me and some others. Since you are a trained educator, I hold you to a higher standard. This is the Internet and it behooves us to put our best face forward. The nice thing about this box (computer) is that we can talk about subjects whenever we want to and get all of the benefits of the immediacy that this brings. But it should not be an excuse to write without thinking about grammar, structure and spelling because we want the widest, most diverse audience possible to understand what we are saying. Obviously, I am not talking about the rare misspelling, punctuation mark, etc. From a professional, I want and rightfully expect the care and attention given to the subject. Absent this, you would not be getting my business; in this case, my child.

Just as the first thing you should do when going to a restaurant is to check out it's restroom. If it is dirty, what am I to think what the kitchen must be like?

Like I said in the above post, my comment was not personal and I refuse to cower to your "shame, shame, shame game", something the deaf in this country are way past fed up putting up with. So, when we are talking about educational strategies about children NOT yours, grow some thick skin cuz the heat comes with the kitchen.

Originally Posted by Aleser

Okay, I'll start out by saying that I like and highly respect shel, without question.

That said, how you speak here is -always- going to be a reflection upon your ability. Your posts, and the views contained in them, are at risk for not sounding "smart enough" if you use informal or netspeak. That might not be fun, but that's just how things are. People gain an impression of you 2 lines into your postings and sometimes that impression can falsely stick for a very long time.

I find it best if you DO try and use the same writing you would use if you were doing it to turn in a paper. Many people here (and everywhere!) will judge you as harsh as or moreso than most of your old professors.

I get it being frustrating. English is my third language, and for a long time while I was still learning, I just wanted to yell at people cos they'd make comments like not understanding you even if you're being perfectly logical, or even go as far as treating you like you're retarded just because you don't know their language yet.

Originally Posted by Tousi

Shel, you said: "Curious...do u and other AD members think teachers should have perfect English grammar at all times? That's a lot to live up to and I would be about making any grammatical mistakes here cuz I am a teacher. LOL!!!! "
__________________

Lol, Shel, okay, let me answer your question by way of an example: Since we believe that the apparent best way to educate the vast majority of deaf children is through the Bi Bi method, the teacher would need to be PROFICIENT in BOTH ASL and English, right? And this is where I am at a standstill because I do not think that there are enough teachers (both deaf and hearing) in this country who are proficient at both languages to fill all of the classrooms for the deaf & hoh students in this country.

As for you, I would venture to guess (notice "venture", lol) that you possess enough to join those ranks. Anyway, ya see what I'm getting at, tho?

And, finally, lest a contract be taken out on my life, I will say (and I mean it) that Jackie's heart is in the right place.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Tousi, SHAME SHAME on you. When I first started reading these postings, there was someone who was being very critical about Shel, her writing abilities, and her being a teacher. I have copied some of comments people made. I really agreed with Shel and what everybody else said. This is a forum. I know that I have different writing styles depending on what I am writing. It is the same thing when I am speaking to somebody the language I use and the way I speak is diffferent depending on who I am speaking to
These are the different comments made, I just cut and pasted them

I hope you're not a teacher, shel. Spelling like that scares me and makes me wonder if there is hope for the future

This is a forum, not a formal research paper or official memo.

Dude, lay off the nacho sauce. That remark was totally uncalled for. I don't know what bug crawled up your ass but seriously I think you owe someone an apology. There are plenty of people who have both spelling and sentence structure skills that will often far excede what they display on the net when posting on forums or instaint messengers. It's not like she's writing a term paper. Not all teachers are anal and inist that their grammar and spelling be impeccable wherever they're writing/typing or whatever with they may be doing.

I am not anal about my English when I am just typing away on this site. I dont want to cuz I write so many reports, memos and blah blah so I do a lot of proofreading. Here, I am just relaxed and enjoying typing away. If this guy wants tExcuse me, You are DEADLY wrong...

I know that Shel is teacher, also she's good teacher.

I can't believe that you are SOOO CRAZIER.o be the spelling cop, so be it..who really cares! LOL!

Hey Bum Perky, I think you are a real being an asshole.
In contrast, I would have been thrilled to have shel teaching my deaf son! She is an educator who truly cares about and advocates for the needs of her students, as well as for deaf students everywhere. I am a hearing Ph.D. candidate, and my spelling is quite often less than perfect when I post to these forums. And when I am talking to friends, my grammar is quite often less than perfect. And yes, you are being anal, as well as overly critical. Unfortunately, when you take that attitude, you miss the important value in the message becasue you are too busy looking for letters that are out of place. Get a grip!

Second when I was reading these comments I decided to do my own little experiment, I thought, I wondered if someone wrote sort of like Shel but wasn't on their side like me if they would also come to my defense like they did with Shel. You proved me right. Since I am not on your side it is OK to blash me for my writing skills.
This was really uncalled for. It was really mean. Maybe that is just the type of person you are.

Another thing you are coward, you waited until you thought I was not going to come back to say these things. Does that make you feel good about yourself

One last point to you Tousi, You are 100% right my English skills on this forum were awful. What we have been talking about on this forum I am very passionate about. We are talking children like my children, children like my students, this is the world that I live 24 hours a day. My brain works very fast and fingers try to keep up but it usually is a losing battle. But I thought the point was to get my message across but I knew someone will critize me. Just want to prove a point and I did.

Shel mention that maybe because English was my second language that could be the answer. This isn't the case. Although English was sort of my second language. My father spoke to me in Hungarian most of the time and my mom only spoke to me in Spanish when my dad was not around but when he was working, which was a lot my mom spoke to me in English. Although English was not my parents' first language, they were fluent in English.

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Educator to educator Shel, yes I think 3 years old could be to late but it really depends. Say a 3 year is not going to be able to be oral and the parents are ready to accept and change programs and really embrace a TC or signing program then no I do not think it is too late. If you think about it just a couple of years ago before newborn screening many children would not get diagnosis until 2 or 3 years old. Newborn screening are giving us some more time.
I know quite a few teenagers that were not diagnosis until 2 or 3 years old and took the TC approach and parents really embraced that approach. Everyone learned sign language in the home. These teenagers were able to catch language wise are doing very well in school.
It can be done but is hardier.

Originally Posted by jillio

:bsflag: Get a grip. Tousi hit the nail on the head. Some people here cannot seem to understand discussing a point from an objective, intelligent point of view and emotional ranting. Get some therapy people!

Originally Posted by rick48

Oh no, I want them to get all the services they need to succeed, it is you I have the issue with.

Originally Posted by rick48

Tousi,

Jackie is correct, if you had something to say to her or about her then you should have said it to her before she stated she was leaving the forum and not engage in an attack on her once you thought she left the forum.

What you did has nothing to do with being deaf, but everything to do with a lapse of common courtesy and respect. So please do not mention being deaf to try to excuse what you did. If you want to turn up the heat, at least have the guts to do it while the person is still in the kitchen.
Rick

Originally Posted by shel90

I try to write without mistakes but there are times when I am lazy, tired, or just typing way too fast resulting in errors with my writing. However, when it comes to typing reports or papers in which my grammar or the use of terminology is critical, I become more careful and proofread my papers several times to make sure there are no errors. Now, I am starting to read many of my posts before submitting them cuz I went back and looked at my old posts and realized how careless I became with my writing. It is recommended that everyone should write to the best of their abilities when making posts on any forums so others can understand the message. I noticed when I am not careful, others misunderstood my message resulting in the other person feeling offended or taking what I meant in a total opposite way.

By the way, I struggle to use fancy words in my writing like Jillo and others cuz I missed out on so much spoken English growing up and I never learned how hearing people used or played around with English. My English was acquired thru reading 99% of the time while hearing acquire English 99% of the time. However, I also think there is no need to use fancy words here because I would probably end up not making sense..LOL!

Originally Posted by jackiesolorzano

Shel, I just wanted to prove a point that since most people see me as an oralist here they have a different opinion of what is acceptable for people like me.
The other thing that I really thing is wrong is that Tousi waited until she/he thought I had left the site. Another thing it looks like we both have the same level of education and the same years of experience so why Tousi have higher expectations for me.

Originally Posted by rick48

Tousi,

Jackie is correct, if you had something to say to her or about her then you should have said it to her before she stated she was leaving the forum and not engage in an attack on her once you thought she left the forum.

What you did has nothing to do with being deaf, but everything to do with a lapse of common courtesy and respect. So please do not mention being deaf to try to excuse what you did. If you want to turn up the heat, at least have the guts to do it while the person is still in the kitchen.
Rick

Originally Posted by shel90

Matter of fact, I am a teacher so there is no hope for the future just cuz I got near perfect scores on my reading and writing Praxis tests for teaching certifications. Your attitude really stinks if u are gonna insult people like that.