jillio

No, that isn't what rick48 meant. His words were an attempt to discredit and insult. If you will go back and read some of the discussions in other forums, you will perhaps have a better understanding of the dynamics at work here.

Deafness

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shel90

Jackie..u said this:

There no acceptable reason to be close mind. We can learn new things if our mind is closed. We can work with each other if our minds are closed. We can find solutions together if our mind is closed. Times are changing and we cannot stay the same that is not going to help anyone.

This is what I am referring to being closed minded about..see below

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.

How can one be open minded about this issue? Unless u and others think that is ok but for me I am not ok with taking risks to deaf/hoh children's language development like that so with that issue, I refuse to open my mind about cuz I dont see a justification for allowing deaf children to be language deprived if they are not able to pick up oral language and then being exposed to signing at an older age. That's what I meant about Jillo being close minded..just only with that issue alone. Like she said, that's where the BiBi approach comes in..it is using both instead of at being the extreme ends of the spectrum. Jillo and I are not saying ASL only for deaf ed...just use both. So, u want a middle ground, then that would be using both approaches to all deaf/hoh children from the very start.

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"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jillio

[QUOTE=shel90;800959]Jackie..u said this:

There no acceptable reason to be close mind. We can learn new things if our mind is closed. We can work with each other if our minds are closed. We can find solutions together if our mind is closed. Times are changing and we cannot stay the same that is not going to help anyone.

This is what I am referring to being closed minded about..see below

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio I respect your decisions with your children. And the middle of the road is Bi-Bi. By definition an oral approach is at the other end of the spectrum. And anytime you advise a parent of a deaf child to wait until they have become so language delayed at the age of 5 before introducing sign language you have crossed into the facet of the practice of oralism that is extemely harmful to deaf children. My problem is not with your children. You are the one that used your children as an example, and therefore, that has been the example that Ih ave responded to. My problem is anyone who advances the oral methodology as first choice, and sign or TC as something to be resorted to only if oralism fails. This is the practice that creates deficits in our deaf students. And if you choose to take that risk with your own children, then that is your choice and I assume that as a parent, you will deal with the consequences of your choice. However, to advise other parents to take this risk, and especially to advise based on erroneous information such as sign impeding oral skills, is something that I cannot have tolerance for. That does nothing but obscure the truth and prevent us from making the changes in our educational system that would actually benefit the deaf student based on nothing more than communication preference of the parent.[/

Yeah, if being closed minded means refusing to accept the less than adequate educational experience of deaf children, and accepting the discrimination and harm perpetrated on them then I am guilty. But I say that with pride, because I personally could not live with myself if I simply stood by and watched the injsutice contiue to happen simply becasue no one wants to buck the system and risk being labled militant or closed minded.

jackiesolorzano

You say you are open mind but I just read where you say you are closed mind. You also mention that I say contrary statements. I agree with you there because I get so I don't I don't the right words, I want to find a way to respect each other and come together but maybe I wishing for too much. I just want to find a way where we can disagree on philosphy and come together for the greater god of all deaf children and accept that we have taken different paths. And this is why sometime my mind thinks so much faster then my fingers.

shel90

Is your MS in deaf education or special education? I have a BA in special ed and it only mentioned deaf ed in one class for only ONE lecture in the 2 years while in the program and I have a MA degree in Deaf Ed and my graduate work is all 60+ credits in the education of the deaf/hoh only. I learned a lot from my grad work due to classes like language acquisition, English and ASL linguistics, audiology, and all the difference educational approaches of deaf children, the influence of ASL on language acquisition and literacy skills...before all those classes, I thought I knew a lot about deaf ed but I didnt.

Not to discredit u but deaf education is completely different from special ed. Just not sure if u are aware of that? Many people are not ..I wasnt aware of all these issues before taking those classes. They opened up my eyes about the issues to why deaf/hoh children have low levels of reading and writing. Growing up, I blamed the deaf schools for doing a lousy job with the kids but when I learned all these factors impacting their literacy levels, I realized that I was wrong.

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jackiesolorzano

I have and will always say they have too go to college but if for some reason they don't then depending on why it will be OK. I just want them to have it in their minds that they have to go. It is not matter of controlling it is a matter of getting them ready to be independent adults that do not have to depend on someone or something else to support themselves comfortable and doing something they love while make enough money.

jackiesolorzano

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly what I meant by the middle road is we should respect each other and the choices we make

jackiesolorzano

Let me make something clear when I asked to talk to newly diagnosis parents I do not tell them they should choose oral. I tell them about all the different approaches. I also tell them about the appraoches that are available in their area but that if there is approach that they want to use and is not available that they can fight for. If they want to be oral, I make sure they know how hard it is and the work involved. I also tell them that they should read about all the appraoches. I tell them that I have seen many successful oral kids and well as the kids educated in a TC envirnoment. I also tell if they want to speak a parent that raised their child in a TC program I could arrange through one of my daughter's friends. In my area that is the only 2 approaches we have. I do tell them about Bi-Bi but that there isn't a program close by that is just a fact. Me personally feelings if Bi-Bi is what I want then I would move to an area that had. We have moved in the past to areas that had better programs for our children.

jackiesolorzano

I have also found many research articles stating that sign language does impede oral language.
I think I said this once if you are looking you can almost always find an article to support what you think. I know I have found articles on both sides. Can you agree that?

shel90

What about the children who suffered being deprived of language because their parents put them in oral only programs and to find out years later, they didnt develop full language acquistion and then having to switch to sign? If I say that I respect all parents' decision in doing that, then that means I am going against my beliefs that lead me into the decision to be a teacher for the deaf/hoh? I wouldnt feel good about myself so that's why I speak up against that kind of practice. I work with bright students who are reading 3 grades below at their age appropriate levels and they are so frustrated about reading and writing cuz it doesnt make sense to them since they missed out on language development during their first 5 years. I guess u can say that I am not here for the parents but here for the children. If that makes me unwilling to compromise, then so be it. My heart is for the children and I hate seeing them struggle when it didnt have to be that way. Sometimes, I go home crying cuz their self-esteem is so low and they are already exhibiting a lot of anger and that hurts me to see them that way all simply because they were deprived of full access to language.

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--- Anonymous

jackiesolorzano

I have spoken to several deaf adults raised orally that have chosen to shut off their voice because of many different reasons including the ones you stated. It is there individual choice just has it is my children's choice when and if they are ready to make that choice. I am not going to take that decision from children and will not allow anyone else to take their choices away from them.

shel90

Jillo...California doesnt allow BiBi education in their schools..same in AZ. My brother says that his deaf school is using TC..him and several other staff are fighting to get the Dept of Ed in AZ to approve of changing their program to BiBi.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

That's strange cuz several of my coworkers grew up going to Deaf Schools and being exposed to ASL from the start and they were able to communicate with my hearing husband just fine using spoken language cuz my husband's ASL receptive skills are lousy so he needs voice support. Also, some of our students who were born in deaf families have adequate oral skills...there is one high school deaf girl whose parents are deaf and strong ASL users..I went to Eastern Deaf Timberfest last year and I saw her flirting with the hearing boys that live in that area. She was just chatting away in spoken language and acting as an terp for her deaf friends and those hearing boys who didnt know sign language..(in fact someone told me that it was the first time those boys have ever met deaf people).

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"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jackiesolorzano

Good thing you are not on a cochear implant team. Because they look at everything. A good implant center (and there are some not good implant centers) makes sure that the child would benefit from a cochlear implant if not why have surgery, if there is certain proven things that a deaf child needs in order for the implant to be able to function as it should. A cochlear implant is a tool not a miracle. Since I have work with cochlear implants for many reasons, I tell people an implant is like a part of the puzzle you need all the pieces in order for it function the way it should. And immersing the child in one enrich language environment is part of the puzzle.

(P.S. I have been part of cochear implant team)

shel90

I am confused...if the child acquires a strong L1 language in Spanish then they would be ready to learn English in the spoken and written form due to having an understanding of their environement and abstract concepts like time, for one thing just like with sign language. Pls explain how Spanish would not benefit the children if they can pick up on it at home?

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"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jackiesolorzano

My MS is in special education. My master's is from USC, although all of my classes and most of my training happen at John Tracy Clinic. I received my MS at the same time as my deaf/hard of hearing credential.

Yes, I know that special education is different then deaf education and this is why I went back to get my second credential in mild/moderate disabilities. Because when I first started teaching I would find that my d/hh students at times had other disabilites so I wanted to find out more about it.

jackiesolorzano

I don't know about all oral parents I know about my family and my daughter's friends family and son's friends family.
I know that it doesn't take years to know if a child can be oral. At the most 18 months at the least 6 month. If a parent completely embraces and does everything they can to provide a language rich envirnoment.
I can see where you would be for the kids. I in return because of the young age I work with say that parents can make the biggest difference in their child's life.

jackiesolorzano

Shel Go back to your local college when you have time and see. I have done this just because one of my professors told me, it wasn't even a topic of deafness. He was teaching us how to research things. I do not have remember the topic but we found papers on both sides. Afterwards I was curious. I did look for research articles. I found a couple saying that sign language interfers with learning oral language. I also found some saying that it does not. You will find what you are looking for. I did this about 5 years ago.

pek1

Well, my junior high 7th grade I was also picked on because I was short, among other reasons. Now, I'm 5'7" @ 140 lbs and I get exhausted just thinking about having to fight. Ho hum . . . I guess I will just have to get used to it, huh? Me being an attorney in a few years, I'll be more than happy, I guess, to fight.

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shel90

I can look at my work cuz we have a section in our library of research in the education of the Deaf..I will do that when I have time. I am very curious now...It has been 5 years since I graduated from college so I cant remember all the studies I have read but that one study really stuck in my head cuz I did believe that signing interfered with oral language development and that study completely changed my view cuz it was like I finally "got" it.

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"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jackiesolorzano

I am talking about very young children before they have developed language because of their profound hearing loss. Those parents that are seeking an implant, the educational consultant would speak to parents and explain to them how difficult it would be learn to 2 languages at the same time. The team would also make sure that there is an available oral program for the child that will be implanted or that the child is already enrolled in an oral program. And that is where the educational consultant will contact me for my thoughts and for what I see in the family. They want to also know that the family has accurate view of what the implant can do and cannot do. They will also ask me questions is to how movitated the family is in learning English and ensuring that everything is in place. There centers are that do not prepare the parents to what to expect and they are the ones that think the implant is a miracle.

jackiesolorzano

Now that I thought about I was also picked on because I was fat and worn glasses. I tried to teach my kids to be kind to other people and that kids are mean especially in middle school

jackiesolorzano

It was very interesting to me. I thought my professor was crazy. When you are looking for articles I remember finding a lot in the Volta Review which as you know is bias towards oralism. And found articles on the side in journal that Gallauet puts out I forgot the name.

jackiesolorzano

This Thread began as a school district refusing to provide CART after a judge issued the order. Why does it always have to come to oral vs signing? Why cannot it be about making sure that a student with a special need received what she needs in order to successful in school. I just don't get it. I thought I was doing something good. A lot of you have made me feel like a bad parent and bad teacher. Honestly I have won awards for being a mother so involved. I got to meet Celine Dion because of my experiences as a mother. I received a Hispanic mother of the year award. I received a working with families award. When I left my last school district, I had a parent crying because I was leaving. Parents from my old district still ask about me. My old aide wants to come work with me to my new district. I was given 3 going away parties. Here on this site, I feel I can do no right. You make me feel like a failure. It is not because I am insecure it is directly because of your comments. I have always tired to keep an open mind but now I know why parents aviod the Deaf culture. Think about it. I thought that since I am a strong parent I would fight for this and then all the other deaf students oral and signing can benefit for what we have done. At first I was so excited to find a site devoted to deaf issued now I am sorry I found it. Good Bye

shel90

Iam sorry that u feel that way. I have stated before that my view on the educational approach regarding to signing and oral language has nothing to do with Deaf culture so I don't know how Deaf culture got into this. I thought we were talking about educational approaches and children's literacy skills being impacted? The only thing I stand by is not believing in the oral-only approach due to the gamble on children's language development. Has nothing to do with u as a mother or a teacher. If u took my beliefs as an personal insult, then there was a misunderstanding.. Just like u and others don't believe in the BiBI approach or introducing signing to deaf children in oral programs until later but I didn't take it as a personal attack on me as a teacher.

U asked why does it always have to be about oral vs. Signing...well there r many children out there that didn't get their needs met due to the denial of sign language and as a result their literacy skills suffer. As long as that is happening, there will be continued debates..I thought the BiBi approach was a middle ground between oral and signing since it offers both so that is what we were trying to do..find that middle ground between both approaches so all children can get the best of both? Now it seems like it became a personal attack on u when it all about trying to find a middle ground? I guess I was wrong..to many, the bibi approach is not seen as a middle ground between both approaches.

U did a good job with your children and I am glad that u r fighting for your children's rights. I thought in other posts I applauded u? Good luck in everything and continued success in everything u do.

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shel90

Oh...let me rephrase that...it didn't become oral vs. Signing...it seems like it became oral vs signing/oral since the BIBI approach uses both. If we were saying absulotely no to exposing any children to oral language then that would make it oral vs. Signing. I haven't seen anyone here on this thread saying NO to using the oral approach for any deaf children. All is see is some people saying no to using the signing approach unless the children fail to pick up on oral language, am I wrong? If u all believe in that, I won't take it personally.

I just wish many deaf children weren't being deprived of full access to language so maybe the better question is to ask.how can we solve this problem?

If parents want to put their children in oral only education, ok then I would like to find a better way of identifying those who r struggling to pick up on oral language without waiting until they r 4, 5 or even older. Maybe we all work to agree on something that can ensure that no deaf child gets deprived of language?

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--- Anonymous

jillio

Sure, you can always find something in print to support your position. My question would be, what is the date on those articles? The most recent research, by the most respected cognitivepsychologists and linguists in the field of deafness completely disagree. I have seen articles such as the ones you mention. But they are all outdated, and have been refuted by more recent and advanced research.

jillio

Disagreement does not = lack of respect. It is not a matter of respecting you as a parent and a person. It is a matter of disagreeement with theoral philosophy and that great harm that the practice perpetrates on deaf children. You work with very young children, and the effects are not evident at the age you see them. I get them once they have begun to reach adulthood, and I deal with not only the educational deficits that have been created for them, but the emotional issues, as well. Perhaps, if you could work with this age group for a period of time, you would come to realize the long lasting and negative effects that oralism has, despite the superficial appearance of benefit at the younger ages. Your own caughter, by your admission, is beginning to manifest some of the educational issues of which I speak.

jillio

Unless a public system has a self contained classroom, mainstreamed deaf students are lumped in with special education students, and are taught by teachers with absolutely no training in deaf ed. Even in the self contained classrooms, you will very often find a teacher whose only experience with teaching deaf students is in that particular classroom. Most have not even had in service regarding the deaf ed issue.

jillio

EXACTLY!!! We have this reversed. A child should not be placed in an oral atmosphere and then transitioned to a TC or bi-bi environment after it becomes evident that they are suffering from language deprivation. They should be placed in the TC or bi-bi atmosphere from the very beginning in order to create a linguistically rich environment and allow them to acquire language. Then, if they demonstrate that they are more comfortable with the oral approach, they can be placed in an oral program. Doing it this way insures that they receive the linguistic input necessary to prevent language deprivation, and it does not preclude their becoming oral at a future date. Nor does ir create a situation where they are denied opportunity.