For those who suport NCLB..take a hard look at this cartoon - Page 4

AlleyCat · 10-19-2011, 06:17 PM

Yes, there is definitely a higher number of those using English in the US than those using ASL, same as any other country. It doesn't need to diminish the want/use of ASL. And those who are raised with ASL can and DO learn to read/write English. We on this board that are living examples of that.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:18 PM

The point is that NCLB uses one standardized testing in one certain way that all kids must show their progress. Just one freaking test?

That's the whole point of the cartoon. Just give the all the animals just one test and if they dont pass it, they are failures.

there are different ways to measure students' progress in all subject areas and then, like the video DBJ posted, too often children who are strong in one area are forced to focus in the areas they are weak in and end up jjust average, be discouraged, or fail in what used to be in the areas of strenths plus the areas of weakness.

Some of you just making it about just English only. Apparent, it is evident that some just cant think out of the box.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

The point is that NCLB uses one standardized testing in one certain way that all kids must show their progress. Just one freaking test?

That's the whole point of the cartoon. Just give the all the animals just one test and if they dont pass it, they are failures.

there are different ways to measure students' progress in all subject areas and then, like the video DBJ posted, too often children who are strong in one area are forced to focus in the areas they are weak in and end up jjust average, be discouraged, or fail in what used to be in the areas of strenths plus the areas of weakness.

Some of you just making it about just English only. Apparent, it is evident that some just cant think out of the box.

It is hard to not respond when people say that deaf kids don't need to be able to read and write English. It is great to celebrate kids' strengths but, the reality is that they need to be able to read, write and do math.

**Beowulf** · 10-19-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

It is hard to not respond when people say that deaf kids don't need to be able to read and write English. It is great to celebrate kids' strengths but, the reality is that they need to be able to read, write and do math.

With ASL the children easily do that, so what is the problem?

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

With ASL the children easily do that, so what is the problem?

You can't read and write in ASL, sorry. If a Deaf child is going to be literate in the US, they need to learn English.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

It is hard to not respond when people say that deaf kids don't need to be able to read and write English. It is great to celebrate kids' strengths but, the reality is that they need to be able to read, write and do math.

What if language isnt the child's strength but he/she is a genius scientist? Should teachers ignore the child's ability to create their own experiments and force the child to spend more time improving their reading and writing skills to the point where the child starts to hate school and becoming less interested in science?

That's the delicate balance many of us, educators, face and NLCB doesnt help at all!

Yes, we all should read and write but not all of us will become Edgar Allan Poet.

Where do we draw the line when it comes to setting standards?

As a vet teacher, I dont even have that answer but I do know that NCLB is not it.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

You can't read and write in ASL, sorry. If a Deaf child is going to be literate in the US, they need to learn English.

Deaf children can be literate in ASL.

Literacy isnt just about being able to read and write only.

It includes one's ability to create stories, poetry, understand the elements of a story, be able to do critical analysis of any kind of narratives, and so on.

All of that can be done in ASL.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

What if language isnt the child's strenght but he/she is a genius scientist? Should teachers ignore the child's ability to create their own experiments and force the child to spend more time improving their reading and writing skills to the point where the child starts to hate school and becoming less interested in science?

That's the delicate balance many of us, educators, face and NLCB doesnt help at all!

Yes, we all should read and write but not all of us will become Edgar Allan Poet.

Where do we draw the line when it comes to setting standards?

As a vet teacher, I dont even have that answer but I do know that NCLB is not it.

No one here is advocating for NCLB. But there are some, myself included, that believe that we need minimum standards. If the child is a genius in science but fully unable to write, yes, the teacher (and family, don't get me wrong) needs to focus on improving his writing.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

No one here is advocating for NCLB. But there are some, myself included, that believe that we need minimum standards. If the child is a genius in science but fully unable to write, yes, the teacher (and family, don't get me wrong) needs to focus on improving his writing.

Most children dont end up NOT fully able to write anyway.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Deaf children can be literate in ASL.

Literacy isnt just about being able to read and write only.

It includes one's ability to create stories, poetry, understand the elements of a story, be able to do critical analysis of any kind of narratives, and so on.

All of that can be done in ASL.

Literate | Define Literate at Dictionary.com

1. able to read and write.

**Beowulf** · 10-19-2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

You can't read and write in ASL, sorry. If a Deaf child is going to be literate in the US, they need to learn English.

You just don't seem to understand that they use ASL to learn English.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

Literate | Define Literate at Dictionary.com

1. able to read and write.

Remember that is from a hearing's perspective.

The key word here is "not JUST" only being able to read and write.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

You just don't seem to understand that they use ASL to learn English.

Oh yes...witnessed that throughout my years of teaching.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Most children dont end up NOT fully able to write anyway.

And most aren't geniuses in science either.

Unfortunately, most deaf kids do leave high school close to functionally illiterate (functionally illiterate - definition of functionally illiterate by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.), so minimum standards for deaf kids leaving school are desperately needed.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

You just don't seem to understand that they use ASL to learn English.

Don't don't care if they learn English by an alien beaming the knowledge directly into their brains, as long as they get it! You don't seem to see that there are people in this thread who are saying that reading and writing don't matter if they have ASL. I disagree.

**Beowulf** · 10-19-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Oh yes...witnessed that throughout my years of teaching.

You should see the term paper a deaf son of a friend is writing. He started attending the Fulton School for the Deaf (in Missouri) and I am impressed with his grasp of the English language. And oh yes, it is an ASL school.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Remember that is from a hearing's perspective.

The key word here is "not JUST" only being able to read and write.

You are really gonna pull out the "hearing perspective" flag on the definition of literate?

We are all using English here, I think it is fine to depend on the actually definition of the words we are using.

**Beowulf** · 10-19-2011, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

Don't don't care if they learn English by an alien beaming the knowledge directly into their brains, as long as they get it! You don't seem to see that there are people in this thread who are saying that reading and writing don't matter if they have ASL. I disagree.

Yeah, truth is a bitch, eh?

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

And most aren't geniuses in science either.

Unfortunately, most deaf kids do leave high school close to functionally illiterate (functionally illiterate - definition of functionally illiterate by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.), so minimum standards for deaf kids leaving school are desperately needed.

Comes from not having full access to language during their formative years causing them to end up with language delays or even worse, language deficits which affects their ability to achieve critical thinking skills.

That's why the oral-only philosophy and MCEs should be banned.

Give them both languages...ASL and English to all.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Yeah, truth is a bitch, eh?

You seem to have me confused with someone who doesn't support ASL.

Deafguy25 · 10-19-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Comes from not having full access to language during their formative years causing them to end up with language delays or even worse, language deficits which affects their ability to achieve critical thinking skills.

That's why the oral-only philosophy and MCEs should be banned.

Give them both languages...ASL and English to all.

So you don't support PFH and the others who have expressed that English doesn't matter?

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

You are really gonna pull out the "hearing perspective" flag on the definition of literate?

We are all using English here, I think it is fine to depend on the actually definition of the words we are using.

Never mind..

thought you could really try to open up your mind and get out of the reading and writing box to understand where we are coming from.

**Beowulf** · 10-19-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

You seem to have me confused with someone who doesn't support ASL.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you think those who know ASL write in it.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafguy25

So you don't support PFH and the others who have expressed that English doesn't matter?

Your line of question is very loaded, do you realize that?

I support both English and ASL but I understand where PFH is coming from.

**deafskeptic** · 10-19-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

You just don't seem to understand that they use ASL to learn English.

I find it strange that someone who's DoD would have a difficult time grasping this concept.

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 06:57 PM

Anyways, to spell it out...

I agree that talking about the other country's languages is irrevelant.

However, ASL is an American language....*American Sign Language*?

Why isnt it treated as equally as English is?

Is it because it is viewed as the "disability" language?

That is what I meant about thinking out of the box.

deafbajagal · 10-19-2011, 07:11 PM

Deaf children can be, and some are, LITERATE, in ASL. Unfortunately, in our present society in the U.S., English is deemed as "The language" to learn.

One can fully function in the United States without English. It's a foreign concept for many people. If a child learns Spanish as a second language and can use it with minimal conversation skills, we often jump for joy at his accomplishment. Yet a deaf child who is fluent in ASL and can use basic English, as his SECOND language, is told to do better. That's hypocritical...and unfair. Especially since often there isn't a formal assessment for ASL in place to show his true literacy skills with his FIRST language.

posts from hell · 10-19-2011, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

I think your number is off a decimal point or two but the percentage of people worldwide who use English is actually larger than that of those who use ASL in the good old USA. Based on your logic then its you who needs "to stop being all gung-ho on" ASL.

BTW are you raising your daughter so that she is not learning how to read and/or write English?

6billion people in the world. 310-400million uses english primarily. I calculated for 350.

Do the math. If you doubt me, go ahead and google.

And you again, have miserably failed to see my point.

posts from hell · 10-19-2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

Deaf children can be, and some are, LITERATE, in ASL. Unfortunately, in our present society in the U.S., English is deemed as "The language" to learn.

One can fully function in the United States without English. It's a foreign concept for many people. If a child learns Spanish as a second language and can use it with minimal conversation skills, we often jump for joy at his accomplishment. Yet a deaf child who is fluent in ASL and can use basic English, as his SECOND language, is told to do better. That's hypocritical...and unfair. Especially since often there isn't a formal assessment for ASL in place to show his true literacy skills with his FIRST language.

That was exactly what I was getting at, functionally literate. See how the hearing people couldn't get it. Was I clear enough in my use of English? not sure.... Or are they illiterate?

**shel90** · 10-19-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

That was exactly what I was getting at. See how the hearing people couldn't get it. Was I clear enough in my use of English? not sure.... Or are they illiterate?

Nope, just the inability to think outside of the box or get out of their comfort zone.

Yes, English is important but it shouldnt be the only important language for USA.

10-19-2011, 06:17 PM	#91 (permalink)
AlleyCat Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my time zone Posts: 10,833	Yes, there is definitely a higher number of those using English in the US than those using ASL, same as any other country. It doesn't need to diminish the want/use of ASL. And those who are raised with ASL can and DO learn to read/write English. We on this board that are living examples of that. deafskeptic, KristinaB and DeafRaptor like this.

10-19-2011, 06:18 PM	#92 (permalink)
shel90 Let It Snow!!!! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,307 Blog Entries: 3	The point is that NCLB uses one standardized testing in one certain way that all kids must show their progress. Just one freaking test? That's the whole point of the cartoon. Just give the all the animals just one test and if they dont pass it, they are failures. there are different ways to measure students' progress in all subject areas and then, like the video DBJ posted, too often children who are strong in one area are forced to focus in the areas they are weak in and end up jjust average, be discouraged, or fail in what used to be in the areas of strenths plus the areas of weakness. Some of you just making it about just English only. Apparent, it is evident that some just cant think out of the box. DeafRaptor likes this. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

10-19-2011, 06:57 PM	#116 (permalink)
shel90 Let It Snow!!!! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,307 Blog Entries: 3	Anyways, to spell it out... I agree that talking about the other country's languages is irrevelant. However, ASL is an American language....American Sign Language? Why isnt it treated as equally as English is? Is it because it is viewed as the "disability" language? That is what I meant about thinking out of the box. KristinaB and DeafRaptor like this. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

10-19-2011, 07:11 PM	#117 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	Deaf children can be, and some are, LITERATE, in ASL. Unfortunately, in our present society in the U.S., English is deemed as "The language" to learn. One can fully function in the United States without English. It's a foreign concept for many people. If a child learns Spanish as a second language and can use it with minimal conversation skills, we often jump for joy at his accomplishment. Yet a deaf child who is fluent in ASL and can use basic English, as his SECOND language, is told to do better. That's hypocritical...and unfair. Especially since often there isn't a formal assessment for ASL in place to show his true literacy skills with his FIRST language. Tousi, shel90, KarissaMann05 and 2 others like this.

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