For those who suport NCLB..take a hard look at this cartoon - Page 13

**shel90** · 10-30-2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It is a norm referenced test designed to assess for language delay and disorders. Don't you get it?

people who adminster these kinds of tests to deaf and hoh children are just looking at their ability to speak or understand English in the spoken form. VERY biased and VERY unreliable!

FireTiger · 10-30-2011, 06:53 PM

As an educator I hate NCLB, I hate Standrided test being used for anything other then entrance/exit to see if learning (and in what areas learning) was accomplished.

As a tutor I spend hours 'teaching' methods to students whose parents want them to become better 'test takers' ... and I hate that kind of busy work... it's not interesting to teach, so it's not interesting to learn.

1) Read the answers
2) Read the Question
3) Understand what the question 'wants'
4) Repeat above if necessary...
5) Omit obvious trap/funny/stupid answers
6) Choose the best answer- the penalty for guessing incorrectly is less harmful the lack of points for the question (often the penalty is (-1/4) point, 0 points award or deducted for a skipped question, (+1) point for a correct answer) so getting one of four questions right is still a net gain (+1/4 point) for educated guessing).

BLAGRH

jillio · 10-30-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

people who adminster these kinds of tests to deaf and hoh children are just looking at their ability to speak or understand English in the spoken form. VERY biased and VERY unreliable!

Exactly. Exceptionally so because scoring is all objective. That is why interrater reliability is such a concern.

jillio · 10-30-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireTiger

As an educator I hate NCLB, I hate Standrided test being used for anything other then entrance/exit to see if learning (and in what areas learning) was accomplished.

As a tutor I spend hours 'teaching' methods to students whose parents want them to become better 'test takers' ... and I hate that kind of busy work... it's not interesting to teach, so it's not interesting to learn.

1) Read the answers
2) Read the Question
3) Understand what the question 'wants'
4) Repeat above if necessary...
5) Omit obvious trap/funny/stupid answers
6) Choose the best answer- the penalty for guessing incorrectly is less harmful the lack of points for the question (often the penalty is (-1/4) point, 0 points award or deducted for a skipped question, (+1) point for a correct answer) so getting one of four questions right is still a net gain (+1/4 point) for educated guessing).

BLAGRH

And a very, very poor estimate of actual knowlege or functioning.

**KristinaB** · 10-30-2011, 08:28 PM

I know with my home schooling, I would use the Spectrum series of "Standardized Tests" for my kids. Big problem was, when I asked about testing for LD children, they laughed and said there was no such thing. When I asked about testing for advanced children, they said "do I high grade level". Well, needless to say, I gave up doing the testing on my kids. I made up my own tests to check their progress and was told by one of the home school co-op groups, that they would like copies of what I did as they were so much better than what they had from the people they got their curriculum from.

That to me was a little scary. When my son was going back to public school from home school in the 6th grade, they gave him some "Entrance" test for their school as mandated by Missouri standards. Well, this test starts on a 1st grade level and goes up to 12th grade level. IT covers all subjects, math, language (grammar), reading (literature), history (world & American) and science (space, biology, Earth Science, Chemistry). Son completed and aced the whole exam up to 12th grade level. Technically, he should have been placed in 7th or 8th grade with students his age. They claimed that since he was home schooled (at that point, only 2 years) he was only "socially" ready for the 6th grade. That tells me they did not use his test scores at all.

Buffalo · 10-31-2011, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

One of the problems with NCLB is that it enables certified teachers to teach courses for which they are not qualified. I am halfway through helping a friend write his research paper over NCLB and its numerous downside, and have learned a lot of dismaying facts, so many I needed to take a week-long break before tackling the other half. He taught ASL in a hearing high school rather recently until his position was eliminated eue to budget cuts. A French teacher also had one of her classes cut, and in order to become a full time teacher again, she opted to take my friend's class, and she has absolutely no knowledge of it. He is seething over it and I do not blame him. He feels that a teacher must be certified to teach ASL, but that is not the way it is now.

Could you tell us what you have learned, either in this thread or your new thread? I have a lot to learn about the education. Thanks!

Frisky Feline · 10-31-2011, 04:09 AM

deafguy?

FireTiger · 10-31-2011, 01:27 PM

Usually who can or cannot teach specific areas of study is covered under the school broad for that district/county.

It is usually (but not always) more stringent then 'having a teaching degree (and or) teaching certification up to date'.

Checking with the school board or teachers' union would likely be the best bet for that kind of issue.

jillio · 11-01-2011, 07:19 PM

For those that keep bringing up the low achievement scores of deaf students, this is the nation's HEARING students:

Just a little more than one-third of the students are proficient or higher in reading. In math, 40 percent of the fourth-graders and 35 percent of the eighth-graders reached that level.

Best-ever US math scores not good enough? - US news - Life - msnbc.com

And that is an improvement over 2009 scores. Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids.

Once again, thank you NCLB!

posts from hell · 11-01-2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

For those that keep bringing up the low achievement scores of deaf students, this is the nation's HEARING students:

Just a little more than one-third of the students are proficient or higher in reading. In math, 40 percent of the fourth-graders and 35 percent of the eighth-graders reached that level.

Best-ever US math scores not good enough? - US news - Life - msnbc.com

And that is an improvement over 2009 scores. Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids.

Once again, thank you NCLB!

Hmmmmm

Berry · 11-02-2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

One of the problems with NCLB is that it enables certified teachers to teach courses for which they are not qualified. I am halfway through helping a friend write his research paper over NCLB and its numerous downside, and have learned a lot of dismaying facts, so many I needed to take a week-long break before tackling the other half. He taught ASL in a hearing high school rather recently until his position was eliminated eue to budget cuts. A French teacher also had one of her classes cut, and in order to become a full time teacher again, she opted to take my friend's class, and she has absolutely no knowledge of it. He is seething over it and I do not blame him. He feels that a teacher must be certified to teach ASL, but that is not the way it is now.

Given the choice I would prefer the person who knows the subject and knows how to communicate their knowledge -- Certification or Non Certification be damned.

Speedy Hawk · 11-03-2011, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Actually did you know that they scam the system? They have 5% of kids "off limits" for test scores, so that low scorers don't drag the test scores down...and the low scorers tend to be sped kids....sigh.

Makes me wonder what about UK?

When I was in year 6 (11 years old) in primary school and it final year before move to high school. All year 6 all over England have to take SAT test on English, Maths and Science.

I remember clearly that I was given Science SAT paper and I couldn't understand 1st page and teacher took paper away only 5 minutes away and told me forget about SAT tests. So I spend time playing games with one of teachers in other room. That was at mainstream school.

jillio · 11-03-2011, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Hawk

Makes me wonder what about UK?

When I was in year 6 (11 years old) in primary school and it final year before move to high school. All year 6 all over England have to take SAT test on English, Maths and Science.

I remember clearly that I was given Science SAT paper and I couldn't understand 1st page and teacher took paper away only 5 minutes away and told me forget about SAT tests. So I spend time playing games with one of teachers in other room. That was at mainstream school.

Well, what happens is, the deaf student (you in this case) does not have their scores reported, but still they are included when the reports of the hearing students' scores are reported. They are considered to be part of the entire population of that particular school. So no matter how the deaf student is managing in the mainstream, their progress is not being judged on their true scores, but on the scores of the hearing students around them. Sad, huh?

**GrendelQ** · 11-03-2011, 10:55 AM

The figures you tend to see on deaf/HOH student performance aren't compared with the ideal proficiency, but with the actual scores of hearing students. So, let's say you see that deaf 11th graders in a study are scoring at the level of the average 4th graders in the study ( or at the mean level, with 50% below 4th grade, 50% above). If the average for 4th graders is down at 3rd or even second grade proficiency, that means deaf 11th graders are actually averaging at 2nd or 3rd grade proficiency levels.

So, that's not just abysmal news for hearing students, but for deaf students as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

For those that keep bringing up the low achievement scores of deaf students, this is the nation's HEARING students:

Just a little more than one-third of the students are proficient or higher in reading. In math, 40 percent of the fourth-graders and 35 percent of the eighth-graders reached that level.

Best-ever US math scores not good enough? - US news - Life - msnbc.com

And that is an improvement over 2009 scores. Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids.

Once again, thank you NCLB!

posts from hell · 11-03-2011, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

The figures you tend to see on deaf/HOH student performance aren't compared with the ideal proficiency, but with the actual scores of hearing students. So, let's say you see that deaf 11th graders in a study are scoring at the level of the average 4th graders in the study ( or at the mean level, with 50% below 4th grade, 50% above). If the average for 4th graders is down at 3rd or even second grade proficiency, that means deaf 11th graders are actually averaging at 2nd or 3rd grade proficiency levels.

So, that's not just abysmal news for hearing students, but for deaf students as well.

If you have any sources for this, I'd like to see it.

Speedy Hawk · 11-03-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Well, what happens is, the deaf student (you in this case) does not have their scores reported, but still they are included when the reports of the hearing students' scores are reported. They are considered to be part of the entire population of that particular school. So no matter how the deaf student is managing in the mainstream, their progress is not being judged on their true scores, but on the scores of the hearing students around them. Sad, huh?

Yeah that sad. That makes school results not accurate. Would be more accurate if deaf students scores reported separately from hearing students. Then can see how well or badly they really doing.

**GrendelQ** · 11-03-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

If you have any sources for this, I'd like to see it.

I was quoting Jillio -- you'd need to ask what sources she was using to support her interpretation of the article in this way: "Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids." I don't see anything in that article that slices data to show results for deaf kids and support that.

If she's using the "4th grade" reading levels statistics put out by Gallaudet some years ago and comparing those apples with the latest test results for all kids to find them to be "on par", you can find sources for that data in Gallaudet's research on literacy section. A few other articles you can start with:

Holt, Judith A., Traxler, Carol B., and Allen, Thomas E. 1997. Interpreting the Scores: A User's Guide to the 9th Edition Stanford Achievement Test for Educators of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. Gallaudet Research Institute Technical Report 97-1. Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Gallaudet Research Institute. 1996. Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition, Form S, Norms Booklet for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. (Including Conversions of Raw Score to Scaled Score & Grade Equivalent and Age-based Percentile Ranks for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students.) Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

posts from hell · 11-03-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

I was quoting Jillio -- you'd need to ask what sources she was using to support her interpretation of the article in this way: "Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids." I don't see anything in that article that slices data to show results for deaf kids and support that.

If she's using the "4th grade" reading levels statistics put out by Gallaudet some years ago and comparing those apples with the latest test results for all kids to find them to be "on par", you can find sources for that data in Gallaudet's research on literacy section. A few other articles you can start with:

Holt, Judith A., Traxler, Carol B., and Allen, Thomas E. 1997. Interpreting the Scores: A User's Guide to the 9th Edition Stanford Achievement Test for Educators of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. Gallaudet Research Institute Technical Report 97-1. Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Gallaudet Research Institute. 1996. Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition, Form S, Norms Booklet for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. (Including Conversions of Raw Score to Scaled Score & Grade Equivalent and Age-based Percentile Ranks for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students.) Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Alright, since you feel that way, I have to ask you this question.

Is mainstream placement ideal for the deaf population?

jillio · 11-03-2011, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

The figures you tend to see on deaf/HOH student performance aren't compared with the ideal proficiency, but with the actual scores of hearing students. So, let's say you see that deaf 11th graders in a study are scoring at the level of the average 4th graders in the study ( or at the mean level, with 50% below 4th grade, 50% above). If the average for 4th graders is down at 3rd or even second grade proficiency, that means deaf 11th graders are actually averaging at 2nd or 3rd grade proficiency levels.

So, that's not just abysmal news for hearing students, but for deaf students as well.

Bit of a misinterpretation regarding grade level test score meanings...for both hearing and deaf kids.

jillio · 11-03-2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

I was quoting Jillio -- you'd need to ask what sources she was using to support her interpretation of the article in this way: "Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids." I don't see anything in that article that slices data to show results for deaf kids and support that.

If she's using the "4th grade" reading levels statistics put out by Gallaudet some years ago and comparing those apples with the latest test results for all kids to find them to be "on par", you can find sources for that data in Gallaudet's research on literacy section. A few other articles you can start with:

Holt, Judith A., Traxler, Carol B., and Allen, Thomas E. 1997. Interpreting the Scores: A User's Guide to the 9th Edition Stanford Achievement Test for Educators of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. Gallaudet Research Institute Technical Report 97-1. Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Gallaudet Research Institute. 1996. Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition, Form S, Norms Booklet for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students. (Including Conversions of Raw Score to Scaled Score & Grade Equivalent and Age-based Percentile Ranks for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students.) Washington, DC: Gallaudet University.

Nope, that isn't what I am doing, but you are still misinterpreting the meaning of age level test scores. Keep trying.

Age level scores are age level scores. They are obtained the same way. You seem to think that they imply something that they don't.

**GrendelQ** · 11-03-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

Alright, since you feel that way, I have to ask you this question.

Is mainstream placement ideal for the deaf population?

Depends on the individual student, the specific school, and the approach to mainstreaming and accommodations. I don't believe there's any one approach that's ideal for "the deaf population" in general.

Full inclusion = all classes taken in general ed population with ALL services provided in the classroom (no pull-outs for speech or resource room or special catch-up)
Inclusion = all classes taken in general ed population with potential to have some services outside the classroom (after school programs or speech pull-out or access to the resource room, etc.)
Mainstream = one or more classes taken with general ed population and one or more in special education environment. At my daughter's deaf school, high school (and even middle school) kids are transported to either a local high school or college to take an AP course or subject courses not available at her school. They are mainstreamed. Or a student in a self-contained program takes math or science with the general ed population -- that student is considered mainstreamed.

I hope my daughter remains at her deaf school, and if so, I also hope she's mainstreamed and has broad opportunities to take classes in the general population (if you can consider those freaky MIT whiz kids to be the general population).

**GrendelQ** · 11-03-2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope, that isn't what I am doing, but you are still misinterpreting the meaning of age level test scores. Keep trying.

Age level scores are age level scores. They are obtained the same way. You seem to think that they imply something that they don't.

"For the 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds in the deaf and hard of hearing student norming sample, the median Reading Comprehension subtest score corresponds to about a 4.0 grade level for hearing students. That means that half of the deaf and hard of hearing students at that age scored above the typical hearing student at the beginning of fourth grade, and half scored below." source

jillio · 11-03-2011, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

"For the 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds in the deaf and hard of hearing student norming sample, the median Reading Comprehension subtest score corresponds to about a 4.0 grade level for hearing students. That means that half of the deaf and hard of hearing students at that age scored above the typical hearing student at the beginning of fourth grade, and half scored below." source

Still not all you need to know to properly interpret the meaning of the scores.

**GrendelQ** · 11-03-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Still not all you need to know to properly interpret the meaning of the scores.

No, but I've provided some guiding papers in a previous post to help you figure it out.
(If you are determined to compare those standardized score results with the new testing results)

jillio · 11-03-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

No, but I've provided some guiding papers in a previous post to help you figure it out.

I've had score interpretation figured out for quute some time, dear. That is why I have the credentials to do it.

But if you keep trying, you may understand it one day.

FireTiger · 11-03-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

Depends on the individual student, the specific school, and the approach to mainstreaming and accommodations. I don't believe there's any one approach that's ideal for "the deaf population" in general.

Full inclusion = all classes taken in general ed population with ALL services provided in the classroom (no pull-outs for speech or resource room or special catch-up)
Inclusion = all classes taken in general ed population with potential to have some services outside the classroom (after school programs or speech pull-out or access to the resource room, etc.)
Mainstream = one or more classes taken with general ed population and one or more in special education environment. At my daughter's deaf school, high school (and even middle school) kids are transported to either a local high school or college to take an AP course or subject courses not available at her school. They are mainstreamed. Or a student in a self-contained program takes math or science with the general ed population -- that student is considered mainstreamed.

I hope my daughter remains at her deaf school, and if so, I also hope she's mainstreamed and has broad opportunities to take classes in the general population (if you can consider those freaky MIT whiz kids to be the general population).

Currently,
Inclusion= two teachers in the same room with small groups...

Pull out (not in Duval at the moment) = one or more classes taken with general ed population and one or more in special education environment.

Mainstream = no special class accommodations in school, other (technology) accommodations possible.

DeafRaptor · 11-08-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posts from hell

We could use her questioning:

When does that happen? Just Deaf from birth? How about hard of hearing from birth and became later Deaf? How about born hearing with a fast progressive loss? How about born hearing but deafened by illness before age 2? When does the hearing loss become the person? How about having a CI, does that affect your Deaf status?

I was one that was hard of hearing from birth and later started becoming Deaf

. I hope all the d/Deaf/hh I meet here and in person will agree (in the sense of accepting me in the culture).

10-30-2011, 06:53 PM	#362 (permalink)
FireTiger Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Arl, Jax, NE-FL, SE-USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe A, Mutiverse 1 Posts: 518	As an educator I hate NCLB, I hate Standrided test being used for anything other then entrance/exit to see if learning (and in what areas learning) was accomplished. As a tutor I spend hours 'teaching' methods to students whose parents want them to become better 'test takers' ... and I hate that kind of busy work... it's not interesting to teach, so it's not interesting to learn. 1) Read the answers 2) Read the Question 3) Understand what the question 'wants' 4) Repeat above if necessary... 5) Omit obvious trap/funny/stupid answers 6) Choose the best answer- the penalty for guessing incorrectly is less harmful the lack of points for the question (often the penalty is (-1/4) point, 0 points award or deducted for a skipped question, (+1) point for a correct answer) so getting one of four questions right is still a net gain (+1/4 point) for educated guessing). BLAGRH Last edited by FireTiger; 10-30-2011 at 06:54 PM. Reason: have-> hate first line... stupid spellcheck, not marking a real word... sigh

10-30-2011, 08:28 PM	#365 (permalink)
KristinaB New SDIT Deacon Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Land of the backstroke Posts: 13,775	I know with my home schooling, I would use the Spectrum series of "Standardized Tests" for my kids. Big problem was, when I asked about testing for LD children, they laughed and said there was no such thing. When I asked about testing for advanced children, they said "do I high grade level". Well, needless to say, I gave up doing the testing on my kids. I made up my own tests to check their progress and was told by one of the home school co-op groups, that they would like copies of what I did as they were so much better than what they had from the people they got their curriculum from. That to me was a little scary. When my son was going back to public school from home school in the 6th grade, they gave him some "Entrance" test for their school as mandated by Missouri standards. Well, this test starts on a 1st grade level and goes up to 12th grade level. IT covers all subjects, math, language (grammar), reading (literature), history (world & American) and science (space, biology, Earth Science, Chemistry). Son completed and aced the whole exam up to 12th grade level. Technically, he should have been placed in 7th or 8th grade with students his age. They claimed that since he was home schooled (at that point, only 2 years) he was only "socially" ready for the 6th grade. That tells me they did not use his test scores at all. __________________ Taking life one day at a time.

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10-31-2011, 04:09 AM	#367 (permalink)
Frisky Feline Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20,239	deafguy?

10-31-2011, 01:27 PM	#368 (permalink)
FireTiger Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Arl, Jax, NE-FL, SE-USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe A, Mutiverse 1 Posts: 518	Usually who can or cannot teach specific areas of study is covered under the school broad for that district/county. It is usually (but not always) more stringent then 'having a teaching degree (and or) teaching certification up to date'. Checking with the school board or teachers' union would likely be the best bet for that kind of issue.

11-01-2011, 07:19 PM	#369 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	For those that keep bringing up the low achievement scores of deaf students, this is the nation's HEARING students: Just a little more than one-third of the students are proficient or higher in reading. In math, 40 percent of the fourth-graders and 35 percent of the eighth-graders reached that level. Best-ever US math scores not good enough? - US news - Life - msnbc.com And that is an improvement over 2009 scores. Looks like the deaf kids are on par with the hearing kids. Once again, thank you NCLB!