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Unread 10-07-2011, 08:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I am just pointing out that you are making the same argument for Deaf schools that they make for oralism. If the truth is that Deaf schools are failing 80% of our kids something has to change.
Yea, if the kids would stop going to mainstreaming programs and start out at the Deaf schools instead of going there later on after falling behind. You are falling into the stereotype of Deaf schools saying that they are the ones who are failing the students without really digging deeper into the reasons why.

It is your perogative if you hate Deaf schools. I have worked in many different ones and what I have seen has impressed me and I wish I had gone to one growing up. I used to hate them just like you did..used to think the same as you until I saw reality.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 09:00 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Yup. Stats can mean total squat at this point.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 09:00 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Yup. Stats can mean total squat at this point.
According to stats, I was an oral success but my life was shit because of it.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 09:02 PM   #34 (permalink)
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According to stats, I was an oral success but my life was shit because of it.
Me too. I wasn't what you would consider an oral success because I had ASL growing up, but school life was absolute shit. So I don't actually know what you would call me.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 09:03 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Me too. I wasn't what you would consider an oral success because I had ASL growing up, but school life was absolute shit. So I don't actually know what you would call me.

Mainstreaming made your life shit?


People can love mainstream and glorify them all they want but that doesnt stop the fact that there are many many deaf children who have suffered from it. If they want to ignore that fact, nothing I can do about it.
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Unread 10-07-2011, 09:04 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I am just pointing out that you are making the same argument for Deaf schools that they make for oralism. If the truth is that Deaf schools are failing 80% of our kids something has to change.
Let me give you something to smell.

90% of the deaf population including yourself was mainstreamed.

Average reading level for the deaf is 5th grade level.

that is NOT the deaf school's fault.

What do we do?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 09:04 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Let me give you something to smell.

90% of the deaf population including yourself was mainstreamed.

Average reading level for the deaf is 5th grade level.

that is NOT the deaf school's fault.

What do we do?
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Unread 10-08-2011, 12:06 AM   #38 (permalink)
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And you would know how much spoken language is used in bi-bi programs how?
Sorry, but I do not have to explain the basis for my statement to you.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 12:08 AM   #39 (permalink)
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People can hate mainstream and knock it all they want but that doesnt stop the fact that there are many many deaf children who have benefited from it. If they want to ignore that fact, nothing I can do about it.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 12:16 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I think this is a legitimate question. If I end up with Deaf kids (which is perfectly possible ) I wouldn't default send my children to a Deaf school. I would need to look into the academics as well as the social and language environment. There are Deaf schools that have good outcomes and some that are failure factories. I think it is a parent's responsibility to make sure that their child can read and write. And there is no reason that shouldn't be the case for deaf child, no matter what language they use.
Great post!!! You get it.

That is what it is really about: finding the best placement for your child that will allow them to grow academically and socially. For some, it may be a Deaf school, for others the mainstream and for others something else.

There is no one "best" way to raise and to educate any child, even a deaf child!

Rick
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:54 AM   #41 (permalink)
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My questions aren't at all about deaf schools in general. This is about MSSD, and why Gallaudet is radically changing the school that was set up to be the model for deaf education in the US.

My daughter's bi-bi school has stats that are the inverse of MSSD's: 7-12% test below basic standards. You can "blame" those great scores on the 'fact' that most students are actually transferred mainstreamers as PFH and DD say / imply is the cause for MSSD's terrible scores. But I haven't seen any breakdown of student background shown in numbers or even anecdotes, just offhand statements that 'most' kids at deaf schools are "dumped" transferred mainstreamers and that's why deaf ed reflects such terrible outcomes in general. I am a bit skeptical of that assertion, especially since a large number of deaf/HOH students who are placed in the mainstream aren't represented in the poor outcomes being shown.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 08:04 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Mainstreaming made your life shit?

People can love mainstream and glorify them all they want but that doesnt stop the fact that there are many many deaf children who have suffered from it. If they want to ignore that fact, nothing I can do about it.
Absolutely hated it. I (and the 2 other deaf girls in a school of 2,000 students) was the school outcast, I guess I stuck out like a sore thumb as it was very obvious there was a deaf student in the classroom. I was forever picked on and mocked for signing, my speech, etc., starting about 5th grade all the way through high school. It was HELL. There was a real social issue and we all know what that does. Too many others that are mainstreamed go through the same. If the hearing parents want to ignore that fact, nothing I can do about it.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 08:45 AM   #43 (permalink)
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My questions aren't at all about deaf schools in general. This is about MSSD, and why Gallaudet is radically changing the school that was set up to be the model for deaf education in the US.

My daughter's bi-bi school has stats that are the inverse of MSSD's: 7-12% test below basic standards. You can "blame" those great scores on the 'fact' that most students are actually transferred mainstreamers as PFH and DD say / imply is the cause for MSSD's terrible scores. But I haven't seen any breakdown of student background shown in numbers or even anecdotes, just offhand statements that 'most' kids at deaf schools are "dumped" transferred mainstreamers and that's why deaf ed reflects such terrible outcomes in general. I am a bit skeptical of that assertion, especially since a large number of deaf/HOH students who are placed in the mainstream aren't represented in the poor outcomes being shown.
There r many newcomers to AD who come here complaining of not feeling like they belonged.

anyways, that wasn't the pint. The point was that Deafguy put all the blame on Deaf schools for deaf children falling behind and PFH pointed out that 90F of deaf children are mainstreamed. That says a lot about the constant stereotyping of deaf schools by people who probably have never set foot in them.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 08:45 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GrendelQ View Post
My questions aren't at all about deaf schools in general. This is about MSSD, and why Gallaudet is radically changing the school that was set up to be the model for deaf education in the US.

My daughter's bi-bi school has stats that are the inverse of MSSD's: 7-12% test below basic standards. You can "blame" those great scores on the 'fact' that most students are actually transferred mainstreamers as PFH and DD say / imply is the cause for MSSD's terrible scores. But I haven't seen any breakdown of student background shown in numbers or even anecdotes, just offhand statements that 'most' kids at deaf schools are "dumped" transferred mainstreamers and that's why deaf ed reflects such terrible outcomes in general. I am a bit skeptical of that assertion, especially since a large number of deaf/HOH students who are placed in the mainstream aren't represented in the poor outcomes being shown.
post #2.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 09:49 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Yea, if the kids would stop going to mainstreaming programs and start out at the Deaf schools instead of going there later on after falling behind. You are falling into the stereotype of Deaf schools saying that they are the ones who are failing the students without really digging deeper into the reasons why.

It is your perogative if you hate Deaf schools. I have worked in many different ones and what I have seen has impressed me and I wish I had gone to one growing up. I used to hate them just like you did..used to think the same as you until I saw reality.
Where did you get that I hate Deaf schools? Did I ever say anything like that? Why would I want to become a teacher of the Deaf if I hate schools for deaf kids? I didn't attend a Deaf school growing up, for many reasons, but why would that mean I hate them? If it is true that 80% of Deaf school graduates are unable to read and write, something huge needs to change. Is that your experience at your school? Are the high school kids that far behind?
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Unread 10-08-2011, 10:11 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Where did you get that I hate Deaf schools? Did I ever say anything like that? Why would I want to become a teacher of the Deaf if I hate schools for deaf kids? I didn't attend a Deaf school growing up, for many reasons, but why would that mean I hate them? If it is true that 80% of Deaf school graduates are unable to read and write, something huge needs to change. Is that your experience at your school? Are the high school kids that far behind?
lol, not surprising you skimmed over my stat.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 04:12 PM   #47 (permalink)
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There r many newcomers to AD who come here complaining of not feeling like they belonged.

anyways, that wasn't the pint. The point was that Deafguy put all the blame on Deaf schools for deaf children falling behind and PFH pointed out that 90F of deaf children are mainstreamed. That says a lot about the constant stereotyping of deaf schools by people who probably have never set foot in them.
Very good point. It's very clear by those stats that the deaf schools aren't the problem.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:01 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Very good point. It's very clear by those stats that the deaf schools aren't the problem.
The stats are relevant specifically to MSSD, a deaf school where there does seem to be a problem: 80 - 95% of students fall below basic standards. PFH indicated the problem might be the background of the students and DD said that most students at deaf secondary schools are "dumped" there.

There are other damning figures for deaf student literacy out there, but unfortunately most of those studies don't account for the literacy of deaf / HOH students in the mainstream who don't take modified versions of tests through the special ed department, so many CI students or HOH students who don't use interpreters aren't accounted for.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:12 PM   #49 (permalink)
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The stats are relevant specifically to MSSD, a deaf school where there does seem to be a problem: 80 - 95% of students fall below basic standards. PFH indicated the problem might be the background of the students and DD said that most students at deaf secondary schools are "dumped" there.

There are other damning figures for deaf student literacy out there, but unfortunately most of those studies don't account for the literacy of deaf / HOH students in the mainstream who don't take modified versions of tests through the special ed department, so many CI students or HOH students who don't use interpreters aren't accounted for.
Alright, then what is your goal with this thread?
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:18 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The stats are relevant specifically to MSSD, a deaf school where there does seem to be a problem: 80 - 95% of students fall below basic standards. PFH indicated the problem might be the background of the students and DD said that most students at deaf secondary schools are "dumped" there.

There are other damning figures for deaf student literacy out there, but unfortunately most of those studies don't account for the literacy of deaf / HOH students in the mainstream who don't take modified versions of tests through the special ed department, so many CI students or HOH students who don't use interpreters aren't accounted for.
Okay. I guess I'm not all that concerned about your response since over the years you've posted here you have maintained you don't care about stats because "my child won't be like that" even us real deaf kids are living proof of those stats (sorry I know how much you hate reading that) so unless you are planning to enroll your daughter at a school you must not think much of, not sure why you are posting here.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:27 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Okay. I guess I'm not all that concerned about your response since over the years you've posted here you have maintained you don't care about stats because "my child won't be like that" even us real deaf kids are living proof of those stats (sorry I know how much you hate reading that) so unless you are planning to enroll your daughter at a school you must not think much of, not sure why you are posting here.
You are likely confusing me with those who have said that stats "don't mean squat" and "statistics mean shit", but I've never, ever discounted stats and facts. I think it's very important that data is taken into consideration along with other information available.

But then, why do you bother participating in a discussion with me about this if you really aren't all that concerned about my response ... or are you secretly eager to read what I say ?
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:31 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Alright, then what is your goal with this thread?
Have a question, asking it. Very straightforward. Is it really all that unclear to you? If it makes you uncomfortable to discuss it in a thread I made, make one yourself, or visit the blog where I came across the news and where a discussion is ongoing among several Deaf people who aren't afraid to do a bit of self-examination on our deaf schools.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 05:45 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Have a question, asking it. Very straightforward. Is it really all that unclear to you? If it makes you uncomfortable to discuss it in a thread I made, make one yourself, or visit the blog where I came across the news and where a discussion is ongoing among several Deaf people who aren't afraid to do a bit of self-examination on our deaf schools.
The way you use words such as dismal, grim, abysmal etc - is all indicative of putting it down - and knowing your history, it's to incite.

Then you try to throw in "CI students without interpreters" as the "better group" of the deaf population "that are taking normalized tests"...

The superiority is not hard to see. Why should we even waste our time with you is what we're saying.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:03 PM   #54 (permalink)
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You are likely confusing me with those who have said that stats "don't mean squat" and "statistics mean shit", but I've never, ever discounted stats and facts. I think it's very important that data is taken into consideration along with other information available.

But then, why do you bother participating in a discussion with me about this if you really aren't all that concerned about my response ... or are you secretly eager to read what I say :laugh2:?
Not really. It's very hard to take you seriously anymore. It's just troll-like behavior on your part these days. Sorry your cronies aren't here to help you out.

You have posted many times, in various forms, over the years that there is no way that you would put your daughter through "what we have gone through", so to "speak". You've been on this board for years (I emphasize that for those who are new-ish to this board and haven't seen your posting history) and engaged in many nit-picking fights with us. So, if you have no intention of doing anything with MSSD, why even bother posting that here? Typical. We may be deaf, but we're certainly not dumb.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:05 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Not really. It's very hard to take you seriously anymore. It's just troll-like behavior on your part these days. Sorry your cronies aren't here to help you out.

You have posted many times, in various forms, over the years that there is no way that you would put your daughter through "what we have gone through", so to "speak". You've been on this board for years (I emphasize that for those who are new-ish to this board and haven't seen your posting history) and engaged in many nit-picking fights with us. So, if you have no intention of doing anything with MSSD, why even bother posting that here? Typical. We may be deaf, but we're certainly not dumb.
That too.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:12 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Let me give you something to smell.

90% of the deaf population including yourself was mainstreamed.

Average reading level for the deaf is 5th grade level.

that is NOT the deaf school's fault.

What do we do?
Agreed!!!!!!! The impact of Deaf School is MINIMAL!!!!! It's just that they're a popular target, due to the mainstream ed's preoccupation with inclusion as the be all and end all for kids with disabilties.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:22 PM   #57 (permalink)
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The way you use words such as dismal, grim, abysmal etc - is all indicative of putting it down - and knowing your history, it's to incite.

Then you try to throw in "CI students without interpreters" as the "better group" of the deaf population "that are taking normalized tests"...

The superiority is not hard to see. Why should we even waste our time with you is what we're saying.
You don't think those test scores are grim: 95% of the class failing a standard test that's supposed to mark the basic threshold of what an 11th grader should know? I do.

First, I put out the facts I came across and asked for opinions, asked of this community 'what does this mean?'. Not a lot of insight available, so I began looking into why this change might be occurring. And I posted my thoughts. I'm sure not claiming to have no opinion about it -- I do. Looks grisly to me. But I'd like to have more information, more data and some insight from those who know the school into what the real story is.

What about you? First you indicate that you wouldn't ever consider MSSD, then after I posted similar thoughts, you did a little switch and it no longer seems to bother you at all that their scores are so awful and the school that's supposed to be the model for deaf ed is, according to deafdyke, mostly "dumped" recently transferred kids. I wouldn't send my child there if I had a choice, even if it would mean sending her to a mainstream environment, something I'll be fighting against doing for years to come where I live. Unless this is a harbinger of where bilingual schools are headed and this is just the first of changes we'll be seeing to bilingual schools around the nation -- if so, I want to know all the implications of this change.

There's no "superiority" -- I said that "many CI students or HOH students who don't use interpreters aren't accounted for" in the stats for deaf student outcomes -- and they aren't, much as I wish they were. You just have such a whopping huge chip on your shoulder and such an inferiority complex that you think any criticism of an individual deaf school is an indictment of who you are as a person. If you really were the self-reliant, confident person you claim to be, you would be up in arms that the school is failing its students, the next generation of deaf, so badly.
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:27 PM   #58 (permalink)
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You don't think those test scores are grim: 95% of the class failing a standard test that's supposed to mark the basic threshold of what an 11th grader should know? I do.

First, I put out the facts I came across and asked for opinions, asked of this community 'what does this mean?'. Not a lot of insight available, so I began looking into why this change might be occurring. And I posted my thoughts. I'm sure not claiming to have no opinion about it -- I do. Looks grisly to me. But I'd like to have more information, more data and some insight from those who know the school into what the real story is.

What about you? First you indicate that you wouldn't ever consider MSSD, then after I posted similar thoughts, you did a little switch and it no longer seems to bother you at all that their scores are so awful and the school that's supposed to be the model for deaf ed is, according to deafdyke, mostly "dumped" recently transferred kids. I wouldn't send my child there if I had a choice, even if it would mean sending her to a mainstream environment, something I'll be fighting against doing for years to come where I live. Unless this is a harbinger of where bilingual schools are headed and this is just the first of changes we'll be seeing to bilingual schools around the nation -- if so, I want to know all the implications of this change.

There's no "superiority" -- I said that "many CI students or HOH students who don't use interpreters aren't accounted for" in the stats for deaf student outcomes -- and they aren't, much as I wish they were. You just have such a whopping huge chip on your shoulder and such an inferiority complex that you think any criticism of an individual deaf school is an indictment of who you are as a person. If you really were the self-reliant, confident person you claim to be, you would be up in arms that the school is failing its students, the next generation of deaf, so badly.
DD didn't mention MSSD as "dumping grounds."
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:30 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Sorry, but I do not have to explain the basis for my statement to you.
rick, we're talking about modren bi-bi programs, not halfassed TC programs with a really crappy speech therapist, or programs made up of kids who did not thrive orally/ in the mainstream. This is NOT the mid 90's!!!!!
Some programs don't have great speech resources. I fully agree with you. But that doesn't mean that ALL programs don't. I'm sure you've never seen for example the oral resources at shel's school. She has said that she's got some very oral students this year.....and I bet you didn't know that the reason why boarding enrollment has declined at Clarke is b/c when oral kids start not doing well,(and not just kids who had/have extremely serious oral defiects) they're sent to the state deaf school or a local Sign program......back as recently as 10 years ago there were viable res programs at CID/St. Jospeh's and Clarke! The reason for that not happening any more is b/c the signing Deaf ed programs are now more hoh friendly or may have better speech therapy resources. You know, my friend sent her hoh daughter to Kansas School for the Deaf....a bastian of signing deaf ed...According to AG Bellers, that place would be a classic "oh they don't concentrate enough on speech." Yet my friend had absolutly ZERO complaints!
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Unread 10-08-2011, 06:31 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Not really. It's very hard to take you seriously anymore. It's just troll-like behavior on your part these days. Sorry your cronies aren't here to help you out.

You have posted many times, in various forms, over the years that there is no way that you would put your daughter through "what we have gone through", so to "speak". You've been on this board for years (I emphasize that for those who are new-ish to this board and haven't seen your posting history) and engaged in many nit-picking fights with us. So, if you have no intention of doing anything with MSSD, why even bother posting that here? Typical. We may be deaf, but we're certainly not dumb.
I wish I had cronies. No, actually, minions would be more helpful around the house . But really, why must you always make discussion into a childish schoolyard game of us vs. them -- are you really so stuck there? Stop being so fixated on attacking me personally and just take a look at the question at hand once in a blue moon.

Is it just that you can't possibly wrap your head around the situation and address it straight on? You really have to make this about your own beef with me because I once said that my child would not experience the same thing you have? Get over that, really. She won't. You are not a Chinese 5YO girl growing up in the Northeast 2011 with 2 CIs, fully fluent in ASL and spoken English, attending a school for the Deaf and enjoying the daily support of a whole community of loving Deaf families and teachers and mentors there to welcome you. She has a very different experience from you. She isn't you. I'm sorry if you had a crappy childhood, but I'm not your mommy and I'm not the other kids who picked on you.
__________________
Quote:
Marschark : "The evidence has convinced me, more than ever, that there is never going to be a "one size fits all" solution for deaf children either educationally or in language."
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