California Bill AB 2027 - Page 3

**shel90** · 05-20-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Back then 40 years ago hardly any support or resources on deafness were available for parents to get a hold of. My mother quickly accepted my deafness from the very beginning. She did things on her own and scoured for resources, talked to people, professionals, teachers and so on so that she can be as completely as informed as possible before making numerous decisions over time. She was not the "woe-is-me" type of person when it came to her deaf son. She made sure that I got the needed help, helped my self-esteem, motivation, educational input and so on. I thank her for her contribution and support of me while growing up.

That's good but as someone working in the field of deaf education, most parents whom I have met or encountered arent like your mom. Most of them get stuck in the grieving or denial stage.

faire_jour · 05-20-2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

That's good but as someone working in the field of deaf education, most parents whom I have met or encountered arent like your mom. Most of them get stuck in the grieving or denial stage.

I've only met two parent who really "grieved" about their child's loss and one of them was Deaf! I think the vast majority pick up and figure out what their plan will be and get to work!

**shel90** · 05-20-2010, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I've only met two parent who really "grieved" about their child's loss and one of them was Deaf! I think the vast majority pick up and figure out what their plan will be and get to work!

Maybe in your state unless you are talking about the whole country?

kokonut · 05-21-2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

That's good but as someone working in the field of deaf education, most parents whom I have met or encountered arent like your mom. Most of them get stuck in the grieving or denial stage.

If a parent is grieving for much too long over their child into adulthood and doesn't accept their own child's hearing loss then I'd question it. Acceptance comes eventually. Some are quick and get over it while others take awhile.

**GrendelQ** · 05-21-2010, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Actually you know what might help "tweak" this a bit? Mandating that parents go and see a psychologist who is knowledable with dhh issues. A lot of times, parents are STILL grieving, the "loss of a "perfect" or "healthy normal" child, and that can influence decisions.

Making therapy available, whether through insurance or cost-free, would be great for those who wish it, tho' I'm not too comfortable with the idea of making it "mandatory." I certainly grieved in different ways when I lost my father, when my sweet dog died, and when Gore lost the election, but I most definitely didn't grieve when I realized my daughter was deaf. Perhaps that was because hearing wasn't something she once had and then lost. I was too busy figuring out how to get her through the medical exams and out of China before officials took note and snatched her away from me.

But, that said, one of my very first steps when back home was to make an appointment with a doctor. Not an ENT, which I did shortly thereafter, but with the head of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Program at the best hospital within reach, a pediatric psychiatrist and expert in dhh issues, exactly as you describe, DD. Watching her signing to Li-Li was likely a formative moment for us in choosing the route we did. But I was more concerned with finding out the psychological implications of Li-Li's options on her than with my reaction to her deafness (which I don't recall as a traumatic or grief-worthy realization of any sort).

jillio · 05-21-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I get the points you are making, but honestly, my daughter's ENT and audiologist are not remotely "in it for the money". I'm sorry that there are people out there that behave that way, but I really don't think it is the majority. I think they are really trying to do what they believe is helping people.

Good intentions don't necessarily get good results, especially when those intentions are formulated from an ethnocentric perspective that does not account for or validate the perspective of the one they are attempting to help. That seems to be the point that you continually miss.

jillio · 05-21-2010, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Maybe in your state unless you are talking about the whole country?

If she has met only one parent who grieved, then she is meeting many, many parents who have not adjusted to their child's deafness. Grief is a part of the adjustment process. To avoid going through it causes the damage that we see and contributes to the audist, "we have to fix this" attitude. Grief is not only a healthy response, it is a necessary one.

faire_jour · 05-21-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If she has met only one parent who grieved, then she is meeting many, many parents who have not adjusted to their child's deafness. Grief is a part of the adjustment process. To avoid going through it causes the damage that we see and contributes to the audist, "we have to fix this" attitude. Grief is not only a healthy response, it is a necessary one.

How dare you tell me and other parents that they MUST grieve. I didn't grieve that my daughter was deaf, just like I didn't grieve when she had brown eyes and not blue.

Grendel, isn't it nice to hear that we are in denial about our children's deafness!?!

flip · 05-21-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If she has met only one parent who grieved, then she is meeting many, many parents who have not adjusted to their child's deafness. Grief is a part of the adjustment process. To avoid going through it causes the damage that we see and contributes to the audist, "we have to fix this" attitude. Grief is not only a healthy response, it is a necessary one.

Yes, we need to be honest about this.

Supressed grief can turn out different, some become perfectionists, while other parents just give up. To make this more complicated, people who haven't worked through some grief, prior to getting a deaf child, can't work through the grief of having a different child, BEFORE they have worked through the unsolved grief from the past.

In those cases, I believe parents when they say they didn't experience much grief when having a deaf child.

It's also possible that AG Bell and likes stop those parents from accessing their grief, so there really are no suppressed grief in some parents. The grief is put into the child, and the parents are left confused, battling with a fierce and hostile deaf community and an imperfect oral deaf education system.

Flip, the armchair psychologist.

jillio · 05-21-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

How dare you tell me and other parents that they MUST grieve. I didn't grieve that my daughter was deaf, just like I didn't grieve when she had brown eyes and not blue.

Grendel, isn't it nice to hear that we are in denial about our children's deafness!?!

How dare you misinterpret my posts, but the very fact that you are so defensive and quick to strike simply indicates the fact that you have not managed, as yet, to complete the process necessary for acceptance. You are still fighting too hard to "fix" everything.

Thank you so much for supporting my point.

My only regret is that the children of these parents who refuse to go through the process and remain in such severe and pathological denial have such a negative impact on the kids.

jillio · 05-21-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Yes, we need to be honest about this.

Supressed grief can turn out different, some become perfectionists, while other parents just give up. To make this more complicated, people who haven't worked through some grief, prior to getting a deaf child, can't work through the grief of having a different child, BEFORE they have worked through the unsolved grief from the past.

In those cases, I believe parents when they say they didn't experience much grief when having a deaf child.

It's also possible that AG Bell and likes stop those parents from accessing their grief, so there really are no suppressed grief in some parents. The grief is put into the child, and the parents are left confused, battling with a fierce and hostile deaf community and an imperfect oral deaf education system.

Flip, the armchair psychologist.

And, you did quite well from that armchair, Dr. Flip. It is truly a shame that those who protest the most give the most obvious illustrations to the damage done by the refusal to work toward acceptance. Goes right back to the old phrase, "Methinks he doth protest too much."

But seriously, it is a grief process and anyone who claims it isn't is living in a world of denial and misery.

**GrendelQ** · 05-21-2010, 05:42 PM

Well, I've been wrong many, many times before, and likely will be many times again, so let's say there's grief to be had. Maybe I've not yet begun the stages of grief because I just don't know what to look for. Look at this always-happy face and tell me what is it that we've lost here?

Or maybe I rocketed through denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance some afternoon thinking I was just being moody

.

jillio · 05-21-2010, 05:48 PM

Well, GrendelQ, chances are great that your first statement is much truer than your second.

Obviously, you misunderstand the concept of grief of which Flip and I are referring to. It is not so narrow a perspective as to assume you are grief stricken over the child you have.

**GrendelQ** · 05-21-2010, 06:17 PM

OK, but I am very much open to understanding. Grief is a reaction to loss. What have I lost, or what is it my daughter has lost for which I feel an empathetic sense of grief?

faire_jour · 05-21-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrendelQ

OK, but I am very much open to understanding. Grief is a reaction to loss. What have I lost, or what is it my daughter has lost for which I feel an empathetic sense of grief?

I'm with you. I didn't grieve. What was there to grieve about? My daughter is happy, healthy and Deaf. I accept her whole-heartedly and wouldn't change a thing about her.

kokonut · 05-21-2010, 06:34 PM

Bravo, F_J! Show 'em what you got. Having a determined, loving, and understanding mother goes a long way. I know. I have my mother to thank for.

WeeBeastie · 05-21-2010, 06:41 PM

It can be a loss of expectations. Before a baby is born the parents think of who they will be, what they will do... You see them becoming a dancer, musician, scholar, athlete, whatever. You long to hear that first word.

Then, with a diagnosis of hearing loss, especially if you are not familiar with it, all of those images become 'what could have been'. You mourn the loss of the little ballerina you didn't have yet because you don't know that deaf kids can still dance even if they can't hear the music. You see your future change from tball and swim lessons to speech therapy and hearing aids because you haven't learned yet that they can do it all and more!

When my daughter was diagnosed, I was nearly inconsolable for a whole afternoon because I didn't think she'd ever be able to use an iPod. Silly, I know, but in the shock and uncertainty many parents are sent home with, it's not uncommon. It didn't help that she was only a month old and I hadn't slept properly in 2 months. Rather than continue to be angry, I hit the web and learned that there are accommodations for the deaf to use audio equipment.

WeeBeastie · 05-21-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Bravo, F_J! Show 'em what you got. Having a determined, loving, and understanding mother goes a long way. I know. I have my mother to thank for.

Are you saying that, because I felt grief, I am not a "determined, loving and understanding mother"?

faire_jour · 05-21-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeBeastie

It can be a loss of expectations. Before a baby is born the parents think of who they will be, what they will do... You see them becoming a dancer, musician, scholar, athlete, whatever. You long to hear that first word.

Then, with a diagnosis of hearing loss, especially if you are not familiar with it, all of those images become 'what could have been'. You mourn the loss of the little ballerina you didn't have yet because you don't know that deaf kids can still dance even if they can't hear the music. You see your future change from tball and swim lessons to speech therapy and hearing aids because you haven't learned yet that they can do it all and more!

When my daughter was diagnosed, I was nearly inconsolable for a whole afternoon because I didn't think she'd ever be able to use an iPod. Silly, I know, but in the shock and uncertainty many parents are sent home with, it's not uncommon. It didn't help that she was only a month old and I hadn't slept properly in 2 months. Rather than continue to be angry, I hit the web and learned that there are accommodations for the deaf to use audio equipment.

Maybe it's because my daughter nearly died that I knew that being deaf was no big deal. We were literally told that we needed to make her funeral arrangements, but then she didn't die. Then we were told, "she is surely brain dead." But then they did the EEG, and she wasn't. Then they told us that she would be profoundly handicapped, that she would never walk or talk, and again, they were wrong. We had been through the very worst, so deaf was no problem at all.

**shel90** · 05-21-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeBeastie

Are you saying that, because I felt grief, I am not a "determined, loving and understanding mother"?

That's egostical for u...nothing new.

Don't take him personally

WeeBeastie · 05-21-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Maybe it's because my daughter nearly died that I knew that being deaf was no big deal. We were literally told that we needed to make her funeral arrangements, but then she didn't die. Then we were told, "she is surely brain dead." But then they did the EEG, and she wasn't. Then they told us that she would be profoundly handicapped, that she would never walk or talk, and again, they were wrong. We had been through the very worst, so deaf was no problem at all.

What a horrifying ordeal to go through. *hugs*

For us, the hearing loss was the 'worst'... not that it's the worst thing that could have happened, but it was the most unexpected and we were absolutely unprepared for it. After a picture perfect pregnancy and delivery, this was completely out of the blue, but then again, my daughter is the first deaf person I've ever known.

faire_jour · 05-21-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeBeastie

What a horrifying ordeal to go through. *hugs*

For us, the hearing loss was the 'worst'... not that it's the worst thing that could have happened, but it was the most unexpected and we were absolutely unprepared for it. After a picture perfect pregnancy and delivery, this was completely out of the blue, but then again, my daughter is the first deaf person I've ever known.

And that is fine for you, but for someone to say that I am in denial, or trying to "fix" my daughter is very offensive. Just because one person reacts by greiving, does not mean that I or Grendel have to.

kokonut · 05-21-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeBeastie

Are you saying that, because I felt grief, I am not a "determined, loving and understanding mother"?

I wasn't even talking to you or about you. I was responding to F_J's comment.

WeeBeastie · 05-21-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

And that is fine for you, but for someone to say that I am in denial, or trying to "fix" my daughter is very offensive. Just because one person reacts by greiving, does not mean that I or Grendel have to.

I'm sorry people have thought/said things like that, but it is definitely not my view on it.

Judging people for an emotional reaction, or lack there of, is presumptuous and rude.

A · 05-21-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

And that is fine for you, but for someone to say that I am in denial, or trying to "fix" my daughter is very offensive. Just because one person reacts by greiving, does not mean that I or Grendel have to.

It's very rare for parent to do what Culturally Deaf do... leave them as deaf and use ASL. To them, making them hearing is fixing deafness. Even I think so, because for years I tried to fix myself to fit in the hearing society. Fixing or curing is all depend on how one see it. And as a deaf person I do see it that way. I wouldn't take it as a offense if you feel you made a right choice. I don't think you are in denial, though.. the only time I think a person is in denial is when their daughter want to be part of the deaf community and use sign language and they tell her no. Or Their daughter is frustrated communication method with them and feel isolated, and they won't learn ASL.

kokonut · 05-21-2010, 07:26 PM

I think it's nobody business in here to tell parents of deaf/hh kids that they are in denial.

A · 05-21-2010, 07:27 PM

ok.. Then I will say MY MOTHER WAS DENIAL.

kokonut · 05-21-2010, 07:37 PM

My mother wasn't. She did the best she could under the circumstances.

A · 05-21-2010, 07:43 PM

Probably because you were fine. Denial is when someone knows something is wrong but refused to face it or deal with it. Mom knew we were having communication issues, but she didn't want to do anything about it. She wanted to keep doing things her way.

kokonut · 05-21-2010, 07:49 PM

Probably because I was fine? What do you mean by that?

05-21-2010, 06:34 PM	#76 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Bravo, F_J! Show 'em what you got. Having a determined, loving, and understanding mother goes a long way. I know. I have my mother to thank for. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

05-21-2010, 06:41 PM	#77 (permalink)
WeeBeastie Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Green Bay, WI Posts: 189	It can be a loss of expectations. Before a baby is born the parents think of who they will be, what they will do... You see them becoming a dancer, musician, scholar, athlete, whatever. You long to hear that first word. Then, with a diagnosis of hearing loss, especially if you are not familiar with it, all of those images become 'what could have been'. You mourn the loss of the little ballerina you didn't have yet because you don't know that deaf kids can still dance even if they can't hear the music. You see your future change from tball and swim lessons to speech therapy and hearing aids because you haven't learned yet that they can do it all and more! When my daughter was diagnosed, I was nearly inconsolable for a whole afternoon because I didn't think she'd ever be able to use an iPod. Silly, I know, but in the shock and uncertainty many parents are sent home with, it's not uncommon. It didn't help that she was only a month old and I hadn't slept properly in 2 months. Rather than continue to be angry, I hit the web and learned that there are accommodations for the deaf to use audio equipment. __________________ WeeBeastie Hearing mom with a Deaf child 3y/o profound and aided Bi-bi student

05-21-2010, 07:26 PM	#86 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	I think it's nobody business in here to tell parents of deaf/hh kids that they are in denial. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

05-21-2010, 07:37 PM	#88 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	My mother wasn't. She did the best she could under the circumstances. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

05-21-2010, 07:49 PM	#90 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	Probably because I was fine? What do you mean by that? __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

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05-21-2010, 05:42 PM	#72 (permalink)
GrendelQ 41°17′00″N 70°04′58″W Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New England, USA Posts: 3,419	Well, I've been wrong many, many times before, and likely will be many times again, so let's say there's grief to be had. Maybe I've not yet begun the stages of grief because I just don't know what to look for. Look at this always-happy face and tell me what is it that we've lost here? Or maybe I rocketed through denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance some afternoon thinking I was just being moody .

05-21-2010, 05:48 PM	#73 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Well, GrendelQ, chances are great that your first statement is much truer than your second. Obviously, you misunderstand the concept of grief of which Flip and I are referring to. It is not so narrow a perspective as to assume you are grief stricken over the child you have.

05-21-2010, 06:17 PM	#74 (permalink)
GrendelQ 41°17′00″N 70°04′58″W Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New England, USA Posts: 3,419	OK, but I am very much open to understanding. Grief is a reaction to loss. What have I lost, or what is it my daughter has lost for which I feel an empathetic sense of grief?

05-21-2010, 07:27 PM	#87 (permalink)
A Banned Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,180 Blog Entries: 1	ok.. Then I will say MY MOTHER WAS DENIAL.

05-21-2010, 07:43 PM	#89 (permalink)
A Banned Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,180 Blog Entries: 1	Probably because you were fine. Denial is when someone knows something is wrong but refused to face it or deal with it. Mom knew we were having communication issues, but she didn't want to do anything about it. She wanted to keep doing things her way.

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