Charter school vs. state deaf school

flip · 10-01-2009, 04:59 AM

I have searched through alldeaf.com on opinions on charter schools, but hard to find answers.

Hope some of you can answer this one.

My question is limited to bilingual charter school vs. a bilingual state deaf school. Some parents seem to like the idea of charter schools because it's more "mainstream" and less isolated. I am curious if it's any patterns we can notice in charter schools? Style of deaf people coming out from them, more bullying/conflicts, higher level of education, less strict bi-bi, better bi-bi or something? State deaf schools seems to produce fluent users of ASL. Education level seems to vary.

I ask because I do not know at all myself, but notice that some people seems to have opinions on what is best, but not sure what it's all about.

Also would be nice if anyone know about research done on this.

So, are charter schools considered better/worse than state deaf schools, or does other factors play a bigger role?

shel90 · 10-01-2009, 05:55 AM

I have never worked at a charter school so I wouldnt know. I have worked at several state deaf schools and I found that all of them strived to meet deaf children's needs instead of expecting deaf children to fully assimiliate into the hearing's way of life.

Lighthouse77 · 10-01-2009, 09:31 AM

I think there is charter school where I live. Although I am not exactly sure what a charter school is, but where I lived There is a middle and high public mainstream school that had a class just for the deaf. I almost went to it, but mom told me no, I couldn't go. She wanted me to stay in our current school plus that school is located the heart of the city and a further drive for her if I was ever late for school -- about 20 minutes or more drive from where we live.

Sorry, I can't help you.

jillio · 10-02-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

I have searched through alldeaf.com on opinions on charter schools, but hard to find answers.

Hope some of you can answer this one.

My question is limited to bilingual charter school vs. a bilingual state deaf school. Some parents seem to like the idea of charter schools because it's more "mainstream" and less isolated. I am curious if it's any patterns we can notice in charter schools? Style of deaf people coming out from them, more bullying/conflicts, higher level of education, less strict bi-bi, better bi-bi or something? State deaf schools seems to produce fluent users of ASL. Education level seems to vary.

I ask because I do not know at all myself, but notice that some people seems to have opinions on what is best, but not sure what it's all about.

Also would be nice if anyone know about research done on this.

So, are charter schools considered better/worse than state deaf schools, or does other factors play a bigger role?

Since charter schools for the deaf are a relatively new concept, it will be awhile before we can do any research on the effects long term on the individual.

But like any school, public, private, or charter, there will be variations between schools.

flip · 10-03-2009, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I have never worked at a charter school so I wouldnt know. I have worked at several state deaf schools and I found that all of them strived to meet deaf children's needs instead of expecting deaf children to fully assimiliate into the hearing's way of life.

That's the upside with state deaf schools!

I wonder if the charter schools do it at the same level, but it's perhaps not possible to make a general statement here.

flip · 10-03-2009, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Since charter schools for the deaf are a relatively new concept, it will be awhile before we can do any research on the effects long term on the individual.

But like any school, public, private, or charter, there will be variations between schools.

Will be interesting to compare. It's a hit in some cities from what I have seen, while other places, they close down. Very different indeed, still wonder if it's possible to compare in some ways. Look forward to research if available.

jillio · 10-03-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Will be interesting to compare. It's a hit in some cities from what I have seen, while other places, they close down. Very different indeed, still wonder if it's possible to compare in some ways. Look forward to research if available.

I agree. I am looking forward to seeing some longitudinal studies on the comparison. I think perhaps the general attitudes toward education, and in particular, equality in educational opportunity, of the general population of a given city determines, somewhat, the success or failure of charter schools.

Dixie · 10-03-2009, 12:11 PM

I hope these new deaf charter schools take on a Bi-Bi approach to teaching the students, teaching them ASL right along with English. I also want to see deaf students working AT grade level rather than below grade level. When I did my reasearch paper on deaf education I found that some deaf schools will actually teach their students below grade level such as having a 4th or 5th grade age students doing work out of 1st or 2nd grade workbooks. Thats sad as these students may or may not learn basic life skills before leaving school at that kind of rate.

This is why I want to become an educator for the deaf/hoh, and drawing upon my own personal experiences of having been mainstreamed.

shel90 · 10-03-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie

I hope these new deaf charter schools take on a Bi-Bi approach to teaching the students, teaching them ASL right along with English. I also want to see deaf students working AT grade level rather than below grade level. When I did my reasearch paper on deaf education I found that some deaf schools will actually teach their students below grade level such as having a 4th or 5th grade age students doing work out of 1st or 2nd grade workbooks. Thats sad as these students may or may not learn basic life skills before leaving school at that kind of rate.

This is why I want to become an educator for the deaf/hoh, and drawing upon my own personal experiences of having been mainstreamed.

If the students are at that age but their skills are at first grade level, they wont be ready to perform at 4th grade level skills. They will end up frustrated and fail. A majority of students who are delayed academically had little or no full access to language during their formative years. If a child comes to school at the age of 6 with a language level of a 2 year old, that child is not going to be ready to write a sentence. They need to build up the language foundation first and that can take a year or more depending if they dont have deficits in their cognitive process. That's why I advocate for ALL deaf children to be exposed to ASL upon their diagnosis instead of years later when it has been decided that oralism isnt working for them.

jillio · 10-03-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

If the students are at that age but their skills are at first grade level, they wont be ready to perform at 4th grade level skills. They will end up frustrated and fail. A majority of students who are delayed academically had little or no full access to language during their formative years. If a child comes to school at the age of 6 with a language level of a 2 year old, that child is not going to be ready to write a sentence. They need to build up the language foundation first and that can take a year or more depending if they dont have deficits in their cognitive process. That's why I advocate for ALL deaf children to be exposed to ASL upon their diagnosis instead of years later when it has been decided that oralism isnt working for them.

Exactly. Many students at deaf schools are required to work below grade level because they are having to be remediated for the damage done in the mainstream. They have to go back and acquire the 1st grade skills in order to progress to the 4th grade skills. One builds on the other.

shel90 · 10-03-2009, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Exactly. Many students at deaf schools are required to work below grade level because they are having to be remediated for the damage done in the mainstream. They have to go back and acquire the 1st grade skills in order to progress to the 4th grade skills. One builds on the other.

And of course when people who do not understand Deaf education or the language acquisition process, they scream "foul" at the Deaf schools, not realizing how hard we work to remediate the damage. People seriously need to stop and think before pointing their fingers at Deaf schools. Unless they think there are evil conspirators who work there trying to keep deaf children from succeeding. If there are people like that, then they need to be fired. So far, I havent met a teacher like that in my experience. I have met teachers who probably use the wrong approach but their hearts are always in the right place.

Dixie · 10-03-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

If the students are at that age but their skills are at first grade level, they wont be ready to perform at 4th grade level skills. They will end up frustrated and fail. A majority of students who are delayed academically had little or no full access to language during their formative years. If a child comes to school at the age of 6 with a language level of a 2 year old, that child is not going to be ready to write a sentence. They need to build up the language foundation first and that can take a year or more depending if they dont have deficits in their cognitive process. That's why I advocate for ALL deaf children to be exposed to ASL upon their diagnosis instead of years later when it has been decided that oralism isnt working for them.

I understand, but children entering a deaf school at Kindergarten have likely been diagnosed for years. The doctors need to pair up with deaf educators and work out a plan that will teach the child two languages simultaneously as they develop, ASL and English, not when the child enters Kindergarten, but as soon as the child is diagnosed. I think the younger, the better.

Even hearing children who have two spoken languages at home develop normal language skills in both languages if they are exposed to both from infancy on.

This shouldn't be any different of deaf children. As long as the consistent exposure to both is there from infancy on, the child should develop normal language skills for both English and ASL. JMHO.

shel90 · 10-03-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie

I understand, but children entering a deaf school at Kindergarten have likely been diagnosed for years. The doctors need to pair up with deaf educators and work out a plan that will teach the child two languages simultaneously as they develop, ASL and English, not when the child enters Kindergarten, but as soon as the child is diagnosed. I think the younger, the better.

Even hearing children who have two spoken languages at home develop normal language skills in both languages if they are exposed to both from infancy on.

This shouldn't be any different of deaf children. As long as the consistent exposure to both is there from infancy on, the child should develop normal language skills for both English and ASL. JMHO.

I have seen children enter at deaf schools at Kindergarten with virtually no language such as not knowing their own name. Most of the time, these children have developed behavior problems from years of no communication. The behavior problems have to be worked on because children cant learn at a normal pace if their behavior constantly interferes with their learning process. That takes time to remedy.

Deaf children who enter deaf schools since infancy tend to perform at grade level because of their full access to language.

Also there are many children with additional special needs so that has to be addressed too.

souggy · 10-03-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie

I understand, but children entering a deaf school at Kindergarten have likely been diagnosed for years. The doctors need to pair up with deaf educators and work out a plan that will teach the child two languages simultaneously as they develop, ASL and English, not when the child enters Kindergarten, but as soon as the child is diagnosed. I think the younger, the better.

Even hearing children who have two spoken languages at home develop normal language skills in both languages if they are exposed to both from infancy on.

This shouldn't be any different of deaf children. As long as the consistent exposure to both is there from infancy on, the child should develop normal language skills for both English and ASL. JMHO.

Doesn't happen in an oral-only environment. I know. I went through three years of that crap before I was given a pseudo-captioner (which was really an uncertified person taking point-form summaries of what teachers said) for two years... then got an ASL interpreter after that.

I fell behind big-time... and only reason why I wasn't held back was because my history marks was high (due to the fact I was reading all the time.) Jumping trying to improve from Grade 6 English to Grade 12 English in two years is not fun.

deafdyke · 10-04-2009, 08:33 PM

You know....I think the charter schools are more like a "revitialization" of the old city schools for the Deaf.
And you know Shel and jillo...........ASL and deaf culture and being at a Deaf school would be benifical for even oral sucesses.
Most mainstreamed and oral kids really do tend to be just dogpaddling in the mainstream.....They aren't doing as well as they COULD. I mean look at the parents who have switched their kids from regular classes regular school to a specific dhh program.....they say that their kids start REALLY achieving!
It does seem like the only kids who do really really well in the mainstream are those kids who are from overachiever type families.

shel90 · 10-04-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

You know....I think the charter schools are more like a "revitialization" of the old city schools for the Deaf.
And you know Shel and jillo...........ASL and deaf culture and being at a Deaf school would be benifical for even oral sucesses.
Most mainstreamed and oral kids really do tend to be just dogpaddling in the mainstream.....They aren't doing as well as they COULD. I mean look at the parents who have switched their kids from regular classes regular school to a specific dhh program.....they say that their kids start REALLY achieving!
It does seem like the only kids who do really really well in the mainstream are those kids who are from overachiever type families.

For me, it wasnt because my family is overachieving because they are most definitely not. It was because I have a type A personality which enabled me to stay mainstreamed without any visual support. Yep, I paid a price..a huge one.

DURAY · 10-04-2009, 09:23 PM

National Dissemination Center for Children with Disabilities did some research on charter schools but they followed the NEA and DNC party line, that charter schools is bad even though The Heritage Foundation - Conservative Policy Research and Analysis released a report that most liberal politicians placed their kids in private schools.. I looked at ERIC in Firstsearch but the site is down for now. IIRC, St.Paul (MN) Deaf School and the one in Denver are charter schools within the public school system for deaf education only.

faire_jour · 10-05-2009, 11:41 AM

My daughter's bi-bi school started as a charter school but then merged with the state school for the Deaf. Nearly all the kids there have been there since they were three years old.....There are very mixed results. They all sign ASL very well, but very few are able to write English on grade level. Last year was the first year that any class was able to have 100% of the kids on grade level. It was the 1st grade class. The teacher worked her a$$ off and got all the kids age appropriate. It was a very big deal.

deafdyke · 10-06-2009, 12:11 AM

Oh yeah....shel.........there are also the kids who are very smart and can function orally with very little visual support.
I think that the charter schools/ dhh programs should somehow affliate with the Schools for the Deaf, so that they can share resources. Like every so often, the dhh programs could go to the School for the Deaf for a "weekend retreat" Maybe some students from the charter schools might decide that they want to go to the State School.

Bottesini · 10-06-2009, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Oh yeah....shel.........there are also the kids who are very smart and can function orally with very little visual support.
I think that the charter schools/ dhh programs should somehow affliate with the Schools for the Deaf, so that they can share resources. Like every so often, the dhh programs could go to the School for the Deaf for a "weekend retreat" Maybe some students from the charter schools might decide that they want to go to the State School.

Do you understand that Deaf Charter Schools are deaf schools that are publicly funded?

They are not just a dhh magnet in a mainstream school.

They already are a state funded deaf school.

inmate23 · 10-06-2009, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

My daughter's bi-bi school started as a charter school but then merged with the state school for the Deaf. Nearly all the kids there have been there since they were three years old.....There are very mixed results. They all sign ASL very well, but very few are able to write English on grade level. Last year was the first year that any class was able to have 100% of the kids on grade level. It was the 1st grade class. The teacher worked her a$$ off and got all the kids age appropriate. It was a very big deal.

age level Deaf kids are rare without cued speech. and the teacher NEEDS A MEADAL

souggy · 10-06-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inmate23

age level Deaf kids are rare without cued speech. and the teacher NEEDS A MEADAL

They are rare even with cued speech.

jillio · 10-06-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inmate23

age level Deaf kids are rare without cued speech. and the teacher NEEDS A MEADAL

Could you provide some support for that statement?

deafdyke · 10-06-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Do you understand that Deaf Charter Schools are deaf schools that are publicly funded?

Yes I do. They're like the old city/day schools for the deaf. What I meant is that the Deaf Charter Schools should develop connections to the State Deaf School, so that they could share resources and do stuff.....like retreats at the state Deaf School.

Bottesini · 10-06-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Yes I do. They're like the old city/day schools for the deaf. What I meant is that the Deaf Charter Schools should develop connections to the State Deaf School, so that they could share resources and do stuff.....like retreats at the state Deaf School.

Why would they want to when they already have a whole nice school full of deaf students?

Like Girl Scout Camp??

faire_jour · 10-07-2009, 12:05 PM

I think the problem is that hearing parents of children with a hearing losss, in general, do not want what a bi-bi school is offereing. In order to have enough students to make a school work, you need to convince parents that their children should go there. Bi-bi schools aren't doing that.

deafdyke · 10-07-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

think the problem is that hearing parents of children with a hearing losss, in general, do not want what a bi-bi school is offereing. In order to have enough students to make a school work, you need to convince parents that their children should go there. Bi-bi schools aren't doing that.

Actually faire_jour I think that a lot of hearing parents are misinformed about specialized schools. They think that a kid can do fab in the mainstream with just a "terp and minimal supports. They don't see a special school as a place where a kid can really acheive......they really are pressured into the mainstream b/c after all the mainstream is SO wonderful!

faire_jour · 10-08-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Actually faire_jour I think that a lot of hearing parents are misinformed about specialized schools. They think that a kid can do fab in the mainstream with just a "terp and minimal supports. They don't see a special school as a place where a kid can really acheive......they really are pressured into the mainstream b/c after all the mainstream is SO wonderful!

I think they viewe Deaf schools as a place where standards are lower, and kids are behind. Why?? Because, as so many have stated here, the kids ARE behind! Why would you want to send your child who is age appropriate to a school where all the other kids are not? It doesn't seem to be in their best interest.

Also, many bi-bi schools are completly voice-off and many hearing parents want their children to learn to use spoken language, and that is not valued at many bi-bi schools.

shel90 · 10-08-2009, 04:02 PM

As usual, spoken language and speech skills are more valued than langiage acquisition.

shel90 · 10-08-2009, 04:03 PM

As usual, spoken language and speech skills are more valued than langiage acquisition.
Deafdyke is right..many parents aren't well aware of the great support system the KIDS will get at deaf schools as opposed to mainstreaming. This is about the KIDS, not the parents.

10-01-2009, 04:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
flip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 871	Charter school vs. state deaf school I have searched through alldeaf.com on opinions on charter schools, but hard to find answers. Hope some of you can answer this one. My question is limited to bilingual charter school vs. a bilingual state deaf school. Some parents seem to like the idea of charter schools because it's more "mainstream" and less isolated. I am curious if it's any patterns we can notice in charter schools? Style of deaf people coming out from them, more bullying/conflicts, higher level of education, less strict bi-bi, better bi-bi or something? State deaf schools seems to produce fluent users of ASL. Education level seems to vary. I ask because I do not know at all myself, but notice that some people seems to have opinions on what is best, but not sure what it's all about. Also would be nice if anyone know about research done on this. So, are charter schools considered better/worse than state deaf schools, or does other factors play a bigger role?

10-01-2009, 05:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
shel90 In a pink and black world Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: In the land of the free Posts: 23,974 Blog Entries: 3	I have never worked at a charter school so I wouldnt know. I have worked at several state deaf schools and I found that all of them strived to meet deaf children's needs instead of expecting deaf children to fully assimiliate into the hearing's way of life. __________________ Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

10-01-2009, 09:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
Lighthouse77 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,301	I think there is charter school where I live. Although I am not exactly sure what a charter school is, but where I lived There is a middle and high public mainstream school that had a class just for the deaf. I almost went to it, but mom told me no, I couldn't go. She wanted me to stay in our current school plus that school is located the heart of the city and a further drive for her if I was ever late for school -- about 20 minutes or more drive from where we live. Sorry, I can't help you. __________________ Good thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from.

10-03-2009, 12:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
Dixie Biggest Wimp of AllDeaf Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,942	I hope these new deaf charter schools take on a Bi-Bi approach to teaching the students, teaching them ASL right along with English. I also want to see deaf students working AT grade level rather than below grade level. When I did my reasearch paper on deaf education I found that some deaf schools will actually teach their students below grade level such as having a 4th or 5th grade age students doing work out of 1st or 2nd grade workbooks. Thats sad as these students may or may not learn basic life skills before leaving school at that kind of rate. This is why I want to become an educator for the deaf/hoh, and drawing upon my own personal experiences of having been mainstreamed. __________________ Visit my Deaf Blog Signature banner created by me, please do not steal!

10-08-2009, 04:02 PM	#29 (permalink)
shel90 In a pink and black world Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: In the land of the free Posts: 23,974 Blog Entries: 3	As usual, spoken language and speech skills are more valued than langiage acquisition. __________________ Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

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10-04-2009, 08:33 PM	#15 (permalink)
deafdyke So NOT a Princess! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Trebekistan Posts: 7,491	You know....I think the charter schools are more like a "revitialization" of the old city schools for the Deaf. And you know Shel and jillo...........ASL and deaf culture and being at a Deaf school would be benifical for even oral sucesses. Most mainstreamed and oral kids really do tend to be just dogpaddling in the mainstream.....They aren't doing as well as they COULD. I mean look at the parents who have switched their kids from regular classes regular school to a specific dhh program.....they say that their kids start REALLY achieving! It does seem like the only kids who do really really well in the mainstream are those kids who are from overachiever type families.

10-04-2009, 09:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
DURAY Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 398	National Dissemination Center for Children with Disabilities did some research on charter schools but they followed the NEA and DNC party line, that charter schools is bad even though The Heritage Foundation - Conservative Policy Research and Analysis released a report that most liberal politicians placed their kids in private schools.. I looked at ERIC in Firstsearch but the site is down for now. IIRC, St.Paul (MN) Deaf School and the one in Denver are charter schools within the public school system for deaf education only.

10-05-2009, 11:41 AM	#18 (permalink)
faire_jour Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,694	My daughter's bi-bi school started as a charter school but then merged with the state school for the Deaf. Nearly all the kids there have been there since they were three years old.....There are very mixed results. They all sign ASL very well, but very few are able to write English on grade level. Last year was the first year that any class was able to have 100% of the kids on grade level. It was the 1st grade class. The teacher worked her a$$ off and got all the kids age appropriate. It was a very big deal.

10-06-2009, 12:11 AM	#19 (permalink)
deafdyke So NOT a Princess! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Trebekistan Posts: 7,491	Oh yeah....shel.........there are also the kids who are very smart and can function orally with very little visual support. I think that the charter schools/ dhh programs should somehow affliate with the Schools for the Deaf, so that they can share resources. Like every so often, the dhh programs could go to the School for the Deaf for a "weekend retreat" Maybe some students from the charter schools might decide that they want to go to the State School.

10-07-2009, 12:05 PM	#26 (permalink)
faire_jour Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,694	I think the problem is that hearing parents of children with a hearing losss, in general, do not want what a bi-bi school is offereing. In order to have enough students to make a school work, you need to convince parents that their children should go there. Bi-bi schools aren't doing that.

10-08-2009, 04:03 PM	#30 (permalink)
shel90 In a pink and black world Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: In the land of the free Posts: 23,974 Blog Entries: 3	As usual, spoken language and speech skills are more valued than langiage acquisition. Deafdyke is right..many parents aren't well aware of the great support system the KIDS will get at deaf schools as opposed to mainstreaming. This is about the KIDS, not the parents. __________________ Shel~ "A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

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