rockdrummer

I find it interesting (and frustrating) that there are so many different manual coded english (MCE) systems out there. As an educated adult I find it confusing when one system signs the word one way but another system signs the same word differently. Add to that the difference in some sign language (ASL) signs and MCE signs. I would have to imagine for a child trying to learn it would be a bit confusing as well. What are your thoughts? Which method do you think is the best for what it is designed and intended for? Also if you can think of any other MCE systems I have missed please include them.

Thank you for your time.

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

Buffalo

ASL is the best. It is the language of the Deaf. I am for Bi-Bi education. We didn't invent those other sign language systems. It is the hearings who continually do the experiments on the deaf kids.

__________________

It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem.
- Gilbert Chesterton

jillio

Well, there are so many MCEs because first one was invented, and when it didn't perform the way it was expected to perform, another one was created that was supposed to make up for the deficits of the first. And on and on. Kind of like re-inventing the wheel. ASL has been there all along. It didn't need to be re-invented.

And, what a confusing mess was made in the process.

deafskeptic

It's as if ASL isn't' acceptable because it's just too deaf and any alternatives that are more like English is more acceptable.

__________________
Left ear implanted with Med-El on April 24 2007.
Activated on May 9th.

Buffalo

Deaf kids are not rats to be experimented with. Jillio, is there any experiments done on hearing kids. I don't know of anything like that. I'd bet parents would have a cow if there is one going on. So why the silent response to the experiments on deaf kids/language????

__________________

It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem.
- Gilbert Chesterton

missywinks

ASL is a true language complete with its own syntax and grammar rules as opposed to all the other sign languages you mentioned above. Why would you want to teach your child sign language that doesnt really make sense visually?

By teaching your child L1 (ASL), he would be able to learn L2 (English) easier.

But that's just my opinion.

missywinks

Exactly. Experimenting, experimenting, and experimenting!

naisho

I think, just an experimental guess, there are reasons to why there are 7+ major dialects of Chinese, but I don't know the exact reason for them all. Demographics and geographies might have to do a big part of it. Wiki (opinionated) states that it may have to do with: "Within China, it is common perception that these varieties are distinct in their spoken forms only, and that the language, when written, is common across the country. Therefore even though China is home to hundreds of relatively unique spoken languages, literate people are usually able to communicate through written language effectively."

官话 Mandarin: The famed standard (similar to how we may view ASL)
吴语 Cantonese: One of the major southern dialects
臺灣閩南語 Taiwanese: A lot of taiwan speaks, but not necessarily all.
Don't know the following personally, but the internet told me more:
吳語 Wu
闽语 Min
湘语 Xiang
客家话 Kejia
赣语 Gan

It doesn't end here, there are more dialects and branches off these somewhere. However, they all share the same written form of language.

Mandarin's became the accepted "standard" of them all, though, similar to how you are describing ASL as the chief one among all.

Just dropping some observations into here. I know and understand Chinese is a spoken/written language, I'm dropping in to show you it's not exactly one size for all too.. Get those brain matters churning in your head!
Don't look at me for a sign language comparison though, I shouldn't be jumping with my own opinions into there .

__________________

Jiro

1. these dialects were created and used by hearing people to communicate with other hearing people within their communities - but disadvantage is... their vocabulary and expression are limited to their own context within their society/community so that "farmer" dialect will not work for.... say city people. That's exactly what's wrong with this picture regarding MCEs.
2. multiple sign languages (non-ASL) were created by hearing people for deaf people
3. deaf population is pretty small compared to hearing population - imagine having multiple sign languages for a small deaf population... how chaotic!

__________________
- Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

missywinks

Me again. I am not an ASL instructor but Im Deaf and I use ASL everyday. I want to give you a simple example to why ASL makes sense to me while the other "sign language" systems do not.

Take the word "run" for example:

1) The water tap is running.

2) My stocking has a run in it.

3) My brother is running for the president position.

4) The photocopier is running.

5) My nose is running.

6) I am running to the store.

As you can see, the word 'run' has several meanings depending on the context. If you were signing in SEE or any other sign language system that you mentioned, there would be only one sign for "run" in all of the contexts. So if I used one sign for run for example, running as in jogging...it would make sense in the sentence, "I am running to the store" but it would NOT make sense in this sentence, "My nose is running". If I used the same sign for run as in jogging, in this sentence then, it would make it look like my nose is running/jogging. Noses do not go jogging! In ASL, I would use a different sign showing a visual concept that my nose is running (booger coming out of my nose) as opposed to my nose jogging.

So if you used SEE or any other sign language system other than ASL, can you imagine how challenging it would be for little children trying to learn and translate the meaning? I remember being exposed to SEE and it was confusing for me.

Again, in ASL, the word run would have a different sign for each meaning so that it makes sense visually and conceptually.

Let me know if I do not make sense!

missywinks

Me again. I think I am on a roll tonight. Another point I wanted to make was:

Either you want your child to belong to the deaf world or the hearing world, OR BOTH. If I was a parent, I would probably want my deaf child to belong to both as I would want him/her to socialize with like-peers to have a strong sense of pride and identity as well as know how to function in a hearing world that all of us live in. The language of the Deaf world is ASL and the language of the hearing world is English. So, why bring in all of the other sign language systems/methods in? Where would all of the other sign language systems fit in both worlds? So it only makes sense to focus on ASL and English only.

Good night.

ASLGAL

I was always taught that the systems were merely and assistive to ASL.

ASL first, any deviation after to assist with total communication.

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
~ Edmund Burke~

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser"
~ Socrates ~

Frisky Feline

I use ASL all my life.

shel90

Agreed.

ASL and English r true languages while the other systems are artificial. Would rather have my child be exposed to true languages.

__________________
Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

Mrs Bucket

For me as a DB, ASL is my true language and seeing so many DBs as well, ASL is their language as well.

Tactile using ASL is amazing. Fingerspelling is hard using tactile so imagine SEE1 or SEE2 using tactile, there would be so many miscommunications.

I'm lucky because to be able to be L1/L2.. ASL was there for me.

My family has advocated for Bi-Bi as well.

__________________


My new nieces/nephews are arriving soon!

jillio

Dialects do not cross languages. All dialects of Chinese are still Chinese. ASL has different dialects. It is known as regionality in sign. English has different dialects. They are still ASL and still English.

MCEs are not different dialects. Mandarin may be the standard dialect in Chinese. But MCEs are not dialects of ASL. They are English, pure and simple. It is English presented in a different mode. The dialects of ASL are those differences seen in regional variations, just as, in English, there are variations in word use and accent by region, or in Chinese, there are variations by region.

jillio

Makes perfect sense, and in fact, is quite accurate and well explained. That is exactly why using signed English creates a confusing linguistic atmosphere for the brain.

shel90

Which in turn, leads to poor literacy skills.

__________________
Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

rockdrummer

Thank you all for the responses but I am not talking about sign language. As far as I know in the US there is only one sign language and that is ASL. I believe ASL and English to be mutually exculsive languages. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The MCE systems as I understand are suppose to hellp teach English literacy. My question is to why we have so many different MCE's. Furthermore, why are the MCE signs different from the ASL signs? The MCE should use existing ASL signs as the starting point so that a word signed in ASL would be the same as the MCE sign for the same word. Hopefully that clears it up a bit.

jillio

We have so many because they don't work. Hearing folk just keep believing that they can improve the language of signs by making it more closely resemble their spoken language. Just another indication of the audist view. They just keep altering and changing hoping to hit upon something that is actually effective. MCE signs are different because MCEs are not ASL. What you are talking about is PSE. The MCEs were designed to make English visable. Therefore, they include the various features of the English language. PSE evolved for communication purposes. It follows neither the strict grammatical rules of English, nor ASL, but combines them both.

The problem here is that MCEs are attempting to take stimuli meant to be received and processed auditorily (in a linear fashion) and put it into a mode that is intended to process stimuli from a time oriented and spatial perspective.

rockdrummer

Thanks... Without MCE's how would you teach english literacy to a profoundly deaf child?

Jiro

well - if a foreigner can learn English, so can ASLer.

__________________
- Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

rockdrummer

that doesnt answer the question

Jiro

it's already been explained many times in many threads. with strong L1 (which means you are cognitively developed & matured)... it helps facilitate learning L2. With poor L1 - how can you learn L2?

Example - Korean grammar is fundamentally different from American grammar but they have no problem learning it as long as they have strong L1. Just because ASL isn't a written nor spoken language doesn't mean it's any more difficult for deafie than a foreigner to learn English.

__________________
- Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

rockdrummer

nevermind

jillio

The same way ESL is taught. By using the L1 language to teach the L2.

You seem to forget that literacy rates of the deaf were higher before MCEs were even a thought, much less a practice.

shel90

Eaxactly Jiro..I have a student who is struggling to learn English and has poor literacy skills for his age because he learned ASL at the age of 6 after the oral only method failed him. Because of such a huge delay, he doesn't have a strong first language. Despite learning ASL, there are gaps in it and in his thinking skills.

__________________
Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

rockdrummer

I can't forget something I have never known. But thank you for your reponse. I gather what you are all indirectly saying is that you don't believe MCE's are not necessary.

deafbajagal

When MCE (any version) was invented and then used...many deaf students started to fail reading and writing...and fail to grasp language skills.

Which bears the question...why do I (as a deaf education teacher) not use Signed English to teach spoken and written English? Yes, that's a very good question and a logical one at that.

Because it does not work. You cannot teach a language by using an artifical language.

Using ASL works because the students acquire a full set of language tools to have a strong language base. ASL is a real language. Then from that base, they are able to learn any language - including English.

Look at Sweden. The teachers use the native sign language system of the deaf to teach the spoken/written Swedish language. This is often referred to as the bi-bi program in education. And as a result, nearly every child graduates on grade level or above from their education programs. This speaks volumes.

jillio

LOL, well now that you know it, keep it in mind.

No, MCEs are not necessary.