Why so many signing systems? - Page 3

05-20-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Ah yes, but that's for ASL signs. You are associating a word with the "spoken" aspect. However if MCEs are just for learning English and are not actually to be used as a language itself... that's what I meant. Isn't it kind of pointless?

I mean do people use MCE for actually communicating?

I believe they do especially if that is all they were ever taught.

jillio · 05-20-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Ah yes, but that's for ASL signs. You are associating a word with the "spoken" aspect. However if MCEs are just for learning English and are not actually to be used as a language itself... that's what I meant. Isn't it kind of pointless?

I mean do people use MCE for actually communicating?

No. Too cumbersome and artificial.

No, the method I described is not associating a word with the spoken aspect. It is associating the print (visual) with a sign (visual) with the object (visual). Sound doesn't enter into it.

jillio · 05-20-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I believe they do especially if that is all they were ever taught.

Actually, they will not use the MCE in its pure form, but will use a PSE. MCEs are simply too cumbersome. By the time you get word endings and artificial signs added into the communication, the receiver has lost you.

deafbajagal · 05-20-2009, 01:16 PM

I think some people do use MCE for communication purposes, but in my experience as an observer, a CDI, and and an educator - I've seen that many of them cannot use it 100% because there are restrictions in when using MCE in a conversational form. It is almost robotic-like. One student I met in college grew up using SEE II. When he joined our college, the college only provided ASL interpreters. It was wrong of them, and I fought for him to get a SEE transliterator. He also got other services such as notetakers, etc. I also took the time to really learn SEE so I could communicate with him. That was a waste of my time because by the time we got to the next topic of our conversation I was exhausted! Then I noticed he really did not use every aspect of the SEE II mechanics (which is what SEE promotes - using all of the mechanics such as adding the "ing" to present participle verbs). Why did he omit some parts? Because it took forever just to get an idea across! So he was using shortcuts.

The problem with the shortcuts is that only he knew what the shortcuts were...thus making communication difficult. I finally persuaded him to join ASL 1 - which he did. He loved it...now he uses ASL instead of SEE. And now we can talk all night long.

His mother told me that she always thought he was not much of a "talker" because he would not converse much. Now he converses nonstop in ASL. She can't get him to shut up!

deafbajagal · 05-20-2009, 01:17 PM

SEE is nice to use in an English classroom, though.

The signs for walk, walked, walking - it is nice to show the ending when instructing on specific spelling of words, etc.

**Jiro** · 05-20-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

We already do many of those things that you mention. One thing I don't understand is whey you say to make up my own signs. Wouldn't that be just another MCE? And thank you for your admiration. I really do try but as you all know, this is not a black and white area

Well - when you're story-telling, you're being creative by making up sign or using pantomime. Hearing parents make up names/sound for something too when story-telling. It's no different.

**Jiro** · 05-20-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

I think some people do use MCE for communication purposes, but in my experience as an observer, a CDI, and and an educator - I've seen that many of them cannot use it 100% because there are restrictions in when using MCE in a conversational form. It is almost robotic-like. One student I met in college grew up using SEE II. When he joined our college, the college only provided ASL interpreters. It was wrong of them, and I fought for him to get a SEE transliterator. He also got other services such as notetakers, etc. I also took the time to really learn SEE so I could communicate with him. That was a waste of my time because by the time we got to the next topic of our conversation I was exhausted! Then I noticed he really did not use every aspect of the SEE II mechanics (which is what SEE promotes - using all of the mechanics such as adding the "ing" to present participle verbs). Why did he omit some parts? Because it took forever just to get an idea across! So he was using shortcuts.

The problem with the shortcuts is that only he knew what the shortcuts were...thus making communication difficult. I finally persuaded him to join ASL 1 - which he did. He loved it...now he uses ASL instead of SEE. And now we can talk all night long.

His mother told me that she always thought he was not much of a "talker" because he would not converse much. Now he converses nonstop in ASL. She can't get him to shut up!

wow. awesome story with awesome ending!

05-20-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Well - when you're story-telling, you're being creative by making up sign or using pantomime. Hearing parents make up names/sound for something too when story-telling. It's no different.

Right but if I already know an MCE sign they why would I invent a new one? To me that would just add to the confusion.

**Jiro** · 05-20-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Right but if I already know an MCE sign they why would I invent a new one? To me that would just add to the confusion.

From what I understand in this thread, MCE is primarily used for teaching English grammar and such... not meant to be used for conversation. In story-telling, that's a whole another world because to reach that level - your communication has to be sophisticated & well-developed. With MCE, you do not get to that level and that is sad... very sad... See DBG's post above.

I'm not on storytelling level yet... but getting there at rapid pace. Why? Because I have a strong L1... and that facilitates to learning ASL as my L2. Vice versa for deafies. Based on my deaf friends' and my ASL teacher's observations, I do not sign as English Signer (just a LITTLE bit). I thought I would be but what just happened to me is a proof enough that having a strong L1 does facilitates learning L2.

Buffalo · 05-20-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

that was not the point. Using your example would one German teacher teach me a set of words one way and another German teacher teach me them in another way. No. The word in German for food as example would be taught the same way. I would mouth it and pronounce it the same way. Between ASL and some of the MCE's the sign for the same word is different. So I don't think it is a fair comparision.

You are talking about words. I am talking about syntax. How would you like if someone force you to change the syntax in your language to fit that person's language? Would you get confused when your language get hijacked? How would you like to have someone telling you that your syntax is all wrong and force you to change? That is what is happening to the deaf kids.

05-20-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

You are talking about words. I am talking about syntax. How would you like if someone force you to change the syntax in your language to fit that person's language? Would you get confused when your language get hijacked? How would you like to have someone telling you that your syntax is all wrong and force you to change? That is what is happening to the deaf kids.

Correct, I have always been talking about words. You brought syntax into the conversation. I didn't mean for this discussion to be about ASL vs MCE vs English. It's about why are there so man MCE's and the signs for words which are different between the MCE's and ASL. I never intended this to be about syntax. That said, I do understand that conversations evolve but I am trying to keep in on track. I do appreciate your input and I was only trying to point out that it's not a fair comparison. If we are talking about syntax then maybe it would be but again, I am not comparing the syntax of ASL to that of English.

Buffalo · 05-20-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Correct, I have always been talking about words. You brought syntax into the conversation. I didn't mean for this discussion to be about ASL vs MCE vs English. It's about why are there so man MCE's and the signs for words which are different between the MCE's and ASL. I never intended this to be about syntax. That said, I do understand that conversations evolve but I am trying to keep in on track. I do appreciate your input and I was only trying to point out that it's not a fair comparison. If we are talking about syntax then maybe it would be but again, I am not comparing the syntax of ASL to that of English.

Then explain your interest in MCEs. It sounds like that you are thinking that one of those MCEs should replace ASL. If it is just words, what is wrong with ASL?

05-20-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

Then explain your interest in MCEs. It sounds like that you are thinking that one of those MCEs should replace ASL. If it is just words, what is wrong with ASL?

Those are your words. Please show me where anything I have said would lead you to belive I think an MCE should replace ASL. Please go back and read post #1 and post #71 (which you just responded to) which should answer what has motivated me to start this thread. And I have never said there is anything wrong with ASL.

Peace!

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafbajagal

I think some people do use MCE for communication purposes, but in my experience as an observer, a CDI, and and an educator - I've seen that many of them cannot use it 100% because there are restrictions in when using MCE in a conversational form. It is almost robotic-like. One student I met in college grew up using SEE II. When he joined our college, the college only provided ASL interpreters. It was wrong of them, and I fought for him to get a SEE transliterator. He also got other services such as notetakers, etc. I also took the time to really learn SEE so I could communicate with him. That was a waste of my time because by the time we got to the next topic of our conversation I was exhausted! Then I noticed he really did not use every aspect of the SEE II mechanics (which is what SEE promotes - using all of the mechanics such as adding the "ing" to present participle verbs). Why did he omit some parts? Because it took forever just to get an idea across! So he was using shortcuts.

The problem with the shortcuts is that only he knew what the shortcuts were...thus making communication difficult. I finally persuaded him to join ASL 1 - which he did. He loved it...now he uses ASL instead of SEE. And now we can talk all night long.

His mother told me that she always thought he was not much of a "talker" because he would not converse much. Now he converses nonstop in ASL. She can't get him to shut up!

I dont blame u. That's great what you did for this guy. Kudos to u!

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

Let us say that you moved to Germany and you had to learn German in order to fit in. Would the German teacher have you say stuff in English but in German syntax order before you learn German??? No? Why not? That is what the hearing educators are doing to the deaf kids. That is why I want to see ASL in school and ASL and English should be kept separated. Those MCEs are a waste of time.

Good point, Buffalo.

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missywinks

FJ, we teach the kids English (L2) through their first language ASL (L1). We explain English vocabulary, grammar and rules, word order, reading comprehension, etc through ASL. Why teach a second language (L2) using second language (L2)? My brain would be going OUCH. That would be like learning through a memorizing process rather than understanding the concept as a whole.

There are so many hearing professionals out there who think they know what they are doing. This infuriates me.

No kidding! Why do u think I vent here on AD about this whole issue?

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That is pretty much what I was asking too. How do you teach english if ASL doesn't have all of the signs of English. I guess they would have to fingerspell them.

Exposure to English in print....that's the key.

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

From what I understand in this thread, MCE is primarily used for teaching English grammar and such... not meant to be used for conversation. In story-telling, that's a whole another world because to reach that level - your communication has to be sophisticated & well-developed. With MCE, you do not get to that level and that is sad... very sad... See DBG's post above.

I'm not on storytelling level yet... but getting there at rapid pace. Why? Because I have a strong L1... and that facilitates to learning ASL as my L2. Vice versa for deafies. Based on my deaf friends' and my ASL teacher's observations, I do not sign as English Signer (just a LITTLE bit). I thought I would be but what just happened to me is a proof enough that having a strong L1 does facilitates learning L2.

That was my experience, Jiro with learning ASL.

I have seen proof of how hard it is for one to learn a 2nd language without a strong first language. I have seen that too often over the years as a teacher.

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

Then explain your interest in MCEs. It sounds like that you are thinking that one of those MCEs should replace ASL. If it is just words, what is wrong with ASL?

Nah, I dont think RD is saying that..I think he is wondering why are there so many different signing systems with different signs for one word. I have to agree with him..sometimes, I wonder why so many. I prefer to keep it simple..ASL and English.

**Daredevel7** · 05-20-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No. Too cumbersome and artificial.

No, the method I described is not associating a word with the spoken aspect. It is associating the print (visual) with a sign (visual) with the object (visual). Sound doesn't enter into it.

Let me back up. By "spoken", I meant a way of communicating via visual/auditory/tactile means. That's why I put quotes around "spoken". I couldn't think of a word for a language that is communicated between two people without writing. Is there a word for that?

I was just saying that if MCE is solely for teaching English and not for communication in general, I don't see the purpose of using the signs to show what word it is, when you can just show a picture. The only reason I can think of is that the signs are taught before they can read, so that they can communicate before reading. But this would mean MCE would be used for communicating! And judging by the posts on this thread so far, seems like MCE is not that great for communicating.

faire_jour · 05-20-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Fingerspelling comes to mind.

T-h-e dog i-s go-i-n-g t-o t-h-e store. H-e thinks i-t i-s funny. Where i-s t-h-a-t c-u-c-u-m-b-e-r?

Exhausting.

05-20-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Let me back up. By "spoken", I meant a way of communicating via visual/auditory/tactile means. That's why I put quotes around "spoken". I couldn't think of a word for a language that is communicated between two people without writing. Is there a word for that?

I was just saying that if MCE is solely for teaching English and not for communication in general, I don't see the purpose of using the signs to show what word it is, when you can just show a picture. The only reason I can think of is that the signs are taught before they can read, so that they can communicate before reading. But this would mean MCE would be used for communicating! And judging by the posts on this thread so far, seems like MCE is not that great for communicating.

Perhaps part of the problem is that there is not a picture for every word in the English language (and probably ASL too).

05-20-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Nah, I dont think RD is saying that..I think he is wondering why are there so many different signing systems with different signs for one word. I have to agree with him..sometimes, I wonder why so many. I prefer to keep it simple..ASL and English.

Thank you Shel, that is exactly what I am saying. Why so many different signs for the same word. It's confusing to me and I would have to belive for a child trying to learn its confusing as well.

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

T-h-e dog i-s go-i-n-g t-o t-h-e store. H-e thinks i-t i-s funny. Where i-s t-h-a-t c-u-c-u-m-b-e-r?

Exhausting.

There are ASL signs for the word going, that, it, and cucumber.

That's why it is critical that the children are constantly exposed to English in print.

faire_jour · 05-20-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

There are ASL signs for the word going, that, it, and cucumber.

That's why it is critical that the children are constantly exposed to English in print.

Hmmm, I was specifically told by my Deaf mentors that there were no signs for those words (except go).

**shel90** · 05-20-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Hmmm, I was specifically told by my Deaf mentors that there were no signs for those words (except go).

It is all in the hand movement..

Maybe in your area, there are no signs for it but here in MD, there are.

jillio · 05-20-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

T-h-e dog i-s go-i-n-g t-o t-h-e store. H-e thinks i-t i-s funny. Where i-s t-h-a-t c-u-c-u-m-b-e-r?

Exhausting.

Fingerspelling the "the" and "is" is no more cumbersome than adding the artificial signs or markers. "Is" has a sign, "he"can be demonstrated in sign, "that" has a sign, "going" has a sign and "cucumber" has a sign. If you are fingerspelling all those words, then I would suggest you consult a good ASL dictionary. It isn't necessary.

jillio · 05-20-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

It is all in the hand movement..

Maybe in your area, there are no signs for it but here in MD, there are.

Everywhere I have been there are, as well.

jillio · 05-20-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

It is all in the hand movement..

Maybe in your area, there are no signs for it but here in MD, there are.

Yes, one can say "go", "go to" or "going" just by altering the movement.

08-16-2009, 05:17 PM

Does anyone know if ASL is still evolving and adding new signs or has it been pretty much static?

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05-20-2009, 01:16 PM	#64 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	I think some people do use MCE for communication purposes, but in my experience as an observer, a CDI, and and an educator - I've seen that many of them cannot use it 100% because there are restrictions in when using MCE in a conversational form. It is almost robotic-like. One student I met in college grew up using SEE II. When he joined our college, the college only provided ASL interpreters. It was wrong of them, and I fought for him to get a SEE transliterator. He also got other services such as notetakers, etc. I also took the time to really learn SEE so I could communicate with him. That was a waste of my time because by the time we got to the next topic of our conversation I was exhausted! Then I noticed he really did not use every aspect of the SEE II mechanics (which is what SEE promotes - using all of the mechanics such as adding the "ing" to present participle verbs). Why did he omit some parts? Because it took forever just to get an idea across! So he was using shortcuts. The problem with the shortcuts is that only he knew what the shortcuts were...thus making communication difficult. I finally persuaded him to join ASL 1 - which he did. He loved it...now he uses ASL instead of SEE. And now we can talk all night long. His mother told me that she always thought he was not much of a "talker" because he would not converse much. Now he converses nonstop in ASL. She can't get him to shut up!

05-20-2009, 01:17 PM	#65 (permalink)
deafbajagal Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,171	SEE is nice to use in an English classroom, though. The signs for walk, walked, walking - it is nice to show the ending when instructing on specific spelling of words, etc.

08-16-2009, 05:17 PM	#90 (permalink)
rockdrummer Guest Posts: n/a	Does anyone know if ASL is still evolving and adding new signs or has it been pretty much static?