Jiro

it should be because communication is a two-way street. If you can talk good but you can't hear well.... then what good is it? If you can't manage well in a large hearing social gathering... or in a poorly-lit area... or nosy area.... then what good is it? what's wrong with socializing with deaf people via ASL? nothing wrong with having 2 languages.

the funny thing is.... a deaf oral kid with good speaking skill growing up in mainstream tends to look down on deaf kid who can't speak like they're helpless disabled people. Ironic, huh?

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

Jiro

yes... and many of them have complained of great difficulty in hearing environment and many of them don't know ASL. That's why many of them including me say we're stuck between 2 worlds.

shel90

Jiro, that's how it was for me as an oral-only deaf person growing up without ASL. I wasn't stastified with getting just bits and bits of infor/conversations 24/7. I wanted my needs met too hence my need for ASL and the Deaf community even having been successful in the hearing world by others' standards. Nope, nothing's wrong with having both.

About those oral deaf mainstreamed kids who look down on those who don't have any oral skills, I was one of them which is a shame cuz I missed out on a lot from that audist view I had growing up.

Fair Jour is the mother so it is her decision and I wish her best of luck in everything. I just hope everything works out for her and for Miss Kat.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Jiro

uuhhh that's rather oxymoronic. it's like asking for a research that says "a kid with poor visual skill find it easier to play hockey with sighted kids in the mainstream than kid with glasses."

Let's focus on your comment - "especially in the mainstream, good oral speech skills will play a critical role in the socialization of a deaf child."

ok let's see.... please correct me if I'm wrong - CRITICAL ROLE... meaning you believe deaf kids at early age which is a critical time of development should spend a lot of time and focus on learning how to talk and fit into mainstream. And when doing that... that mostly delays their development in many areas. why? because How does a deaf kid with good oral skill can learn anything if teacher's lecturing in the class, walking around? How does a deaf kid with good oral skill communicate with hearing people if he/she cannot understand what that person is saying? How does a deaf kid participate well in a large social hearing group?

Why does the deaf child MUST be in mainstream? to get fit into mainstream life? Do you have some kind of preconceived notion that deaf kids from deaf school will ends up as "special-needs people" (meaning they need to depend on others) for rest of their life and you just don't want your kid to be seen as "special-needs person?" Not all deaf kids stick with their own kinds. Deaf school with good program do actually help equip the deaf kids with skills to interact/socialize with hearing people.

You have a whole range of deaf people - HOH, partial hearing, deaf in 1 ear, born deaf, later-deaf, etc. But guess what they all have in common? hearing difficulty/none. Stop treating them like they can regain their hearings thru intensive physical rehabilitation. It's gone forever. Teach them with proper tool that will OVERCOME (not strengthen) their weakness in order to achieve anything.

For example - a wheel-chair person obviously cannot use legs and it's pointless to keep trying to make your legs work... use your arms to get around. Deaf person is deaf... no point in trying to so hard to regain hearing. Use sign language or any visual aids to work around it. Same for blinds - use the cane & braille... not keep trying to make their eyes see better.

AlleyCat

I am fluent in ASL, so I have both deaf and hearing friends. I cannot hear well at all even with hearing aids, and even less so in poorly-lit areas or noisy areas. Yet I don't let that get in the way of socializing. Lipreading helps, plus being with friends that make sure they are understood. I wouldn't be with a hearing boyfriend if it was so difficult to communicate. I've never seen myself as of lesser value than a hearing person just because I have less hearing than they do.

I have never, ever done that.

Anyhow,
I can see this thread is getting side-tracked from the original IEP post so I'm shutting my mouth now. Otherwise with what I suspect is going to get posted from the bigwigs here, this thread is going to eventually get locked. Again.

shel90

that's my vision as a teacher for the deaf...to me it is not about who has good speech or not..it is about giving every child the chance to be sucessful throughout their lives instead of making them feel inferior just because they weren't able to develop oral skills. That's why I was puzzled by the issue of the IEP goals here if the child had been making great social and acedomic progress in her school.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

Good for u.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

AlleyCat

Because every parent wants the best for their child. It would appear that the parent in this case is hoping her child develops further oral skills in addition to her great social and academic progress. What's wrong with that? Duh.

Jiro

There you go. I wish i can do both ASL + oral. You're completely in both worlds and that is great to be. I wish I can same for many deaf oral kids especially me but no. it was a rough bumpy ride with widely inconsistent progress. Lot of deaf oral kids don't know how to sign and they cannot hear well but can speak well thus making communication with hearing people difficult. Why did this happen to us? Because the parents try so hard to train/rehabilitate their deaf kids to be, act like, talk like, listen like hearing person. Why? because of a preconceived notion that scares them - a "special-needs" person. Nobody likes the sound of it and that usually have a very negative connotation to it.

I strongly believe this is relevant to this thread but not directly because I don't want Fair_Jour to have such high expectation for her daughter especially when she just got CI. CI or not. HA or not. The problem is STILL there. WE CANNOT HEAR WELL LIKE HEARING PEOPLE.... NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY!!!

I think this is a good fair warning for her to know what to expect because you don't want her daughter to come to AD in 20 years and say the same thing that we all have suffered. The pattern just keeps repeating and repeating and repeating....

shel90

Duh..that has already been answered. If u have a problem with me, PM me..otherwise, pls refrain from making insulting posts to me. Thank you.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

AlleyCat

Didn't make any insulting posts to you. Don't read into what isn't there. You specifically stated "That's why I was puzzled by the issue of the IEP goals here if the child had been making great social and acedomic progress in her school" and I addressed that.

shel90

Then why add "Duh" at the end? That wasnt necessary.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

AlleyCat

Because it was quite obvious what the parent's goals were.

AlleyCat

And it's a good point. I think it's quite a lot to do with perspective.

shel90

My point exactly...IMO, it was unecessary and insulting which is why I asked you to refrain from doing it cuz there is no need for it.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

Fair Jour..many of us without CIs were able to achieve oral skills and it all depends on your daughter's innate ability to do so and since u said she has been making progress..it sounds like you are doing everything u can for her unless your goal is for her to be mainstreamed with all hearing kids.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

AlleyCat

Your point exactly? Then why even ask "That's why I was puzzled by the issue of the IEP goals here if the child had been making great social and acedomic progress in her school." (your words, exactly.) You need to re-read what you're saying, and what I'm saying in response, because you're contradicting yourself.

shel90

I was talking about what I said at the beginning of the thread and then Fair Jour explained more in detail. I wasnt asking again..just talking about my puzzlement at the beginning of the thread. That's all.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Jiro

but how do you get great social and academic progress if you cannot hear well? You just admitted that you can't hear well but can talk well... but then what good does it do for growing deaf child in mainstream school? If the student cannot hear well among many hearing students and teachers.... then how can you do well socially and academically? I did well academically because I had private tutors, one-on-one extra help, and my mom tutoring me. It was time-consuming. A deaf kid in deaf school gets FULL and SAME opportunity in life just as much as hearing kid gets at hearing school. I did OK socially but I can't be friends with bunch of hearing people that I want because of communication issue.

Communication is a two-way street. Your social/academic progress will grow well as long as you can communicate effectively - listening and talking. If not - then your growth is stunted. Yes - some of us get lucky but most don't. If my newborn happens to be deaf like me, I would not put my kid thru the same path as mine.

shel90

Same here.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Bottesini

Same as me. Most of my true education came one on one from my dad at the dining room table. In the school it was tough. And I should say I am another between both worlds. The ASL I know puts me about on a level playing field with a three year old.

__________________

Jiro

worst part is.... they will get angry and abusive

shel90

Who?

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

AlleyCat

As a child, the social aspect was difficult. No question about that. But as I matured, that got better. And as an adult, I feel no less social than a hearing person. It just takes more effort, effort that I'm willing to put forth. (I admit to having an "off" day sometimes like at a bar where it's just too darn noisy and I get tired of lipreading if I'm with my hearing friends, so I take the easy way out and go to the dance floor instead. But as long as I'm not having a problem communicating then I don't need to do that ...)

From an academic standpoint, I had all resources available - interpreters, notetakers, everthing that's available in a mainstreamed environment. I graduated high school with honors. My deafness, while making it more difficult to communicate and having to adapt, didn't interfere whatsoever in academics. Because I'm deaf doesn't mean I can't learn ..

Jiro

parents tutoring us.

Bottesini

I can sadly testify to that part too. And I still can't say "R" "Th" and "S".

__________________

shel90

U were lucky to have interpreters and notetakers. I had none of that and I dont think Jiro did either since we both grew up without knowing ASL.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

It is a hard job...and the majority of the parents that I have worked with arent really doing that anyway so for those whose parents to put in the time and effort are very lucky. I am sure Fair Jour would do the same too.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Jiro

yea i have "lazy pronunciation"... i do leave out certain syllable of certain word. For example.... hmmm

Interstate. I pronounce it as "in-ter-tate" when you're supposed to say "in-ter-STate"

Jiro

yep... i had none of assistance until 9th grade. I had C.A.R.T. service. It was a "cultural shock" for me because I was so used to depending on tutors and parents to teach me... so I kind of did not know how to study on my own because of lack of self-discipline. This issue continued to follow with me into first couple years of college... which is why I took quite a while to graduate.