Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs? - Page 6

sirena rossa · 10-01-2008, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I have a profoundly deaf son, am fluent in ASL, SEE1, SEE2, and PSE, and have 22 year connection to the Deaf community. I am a Master's level professional in the field working on my PhD.

Now you.

wow, awesome. kudos on getting the PhD! Are u getting a PhD in speech therapy?
as for my connection - i am profoundly deaf with 85-90 dB loss in both ears (w/ two hearing aids) and am 100% oral. (although i did take an ASL class in college, it was fun) I was mainstreamed and did speech therapy for 12 years starting at age 1. So I am basically proof that teaching only speech and being predominately oral IS possible and CAN work successfully.

jillio · 10-01-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

wow, awesome. kudos on getting the PhD! Are u getting a PhD in speech therapy?
as for my connection - i am profoundly deaf with 85-90 dB loss in both ears (w/ two hearing aids) and am 100% oral. (although i did take an ASL class in college, it was fun) I was mainstreamed and did speech therapy for 12 years starting at age 1. So I am basically proof that teaching only speech and being predominately oral IS possible and CAN work successfully.

Nope, my PhD will actually be in educational/counseling psychology.

I don't think anyone ever disagreed with the fact that there are oral successes. All we have ever said is that it is not the most successful approach for the majority.

sirena rossa · 10-01-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlleyCat

I did give Jillio the prior knowledge part. That's why I stated I had at least a 50/50 chance of getting it right. But, to get it right 10 out of 10 times (and especially without having to think about it -- "was that really "milk" or "could that really have been beer?" -- in each case it was CLEAR, no guesses) says something.

Anyway, as far as your post goes, getting into a conversation with a perfect stranger and being able to pick out words and letters is always new and can be difficult. I think none of us will dispute that. And, especially, if you have no prior knowledge or context to go with what you're about to lipread. I want to give just one more example, then I'm done with this subject because we've really veered off-topic here .. In my latest audiology test, I had to do a lip-reading test. Not sure why, as that was the first time I've done that. It was in the soundproof booth, no headphones, no hearing aids. I was given 20 words, I got 16 out of 20. I thought that was a great score, and is probably more than the norm. Because trying to lipread single words with no context is very difficult, I DID have to think for a few seconds, of some words, of what I'd just lipread before I could comprehend it into a word. But, still, getting 16 shows me that I was able to pick up different tongue and lip movements that I think hearing people don't realize that we do pick up. Even the audiologist was quite impressed. Now that I think of it, that works out to 80%, which is NOT the norm.

Alleycat, that is awesome, 16/20. I have had that type of test done to me too. and it was an audiologist who I never talked to before, and i got A LOT of them correct. its true, u do kinda have to think for a few seconds. but hearing people do that too. if person A walked into a room saying something totally random, there's a very good chance that person B is gonna reply with "what did u say?" Or even if person A & B are in the same room already and A still says something totally unexpected or out of context. person B may react with "huh, what?" they may THINK they know what was said, but not know for sure.

**Bottesini** · 10-01-2008, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

wow, awesome. kudos on getting the PhD! Are u getting a PhD in speech therapy?
as for my connection - i am profoundly deaf with 85-90 dB loss in both ears (w/ two hearing aids) and am 100% oral. (although i did take an ASL class in college, it was fun) I was mainstreamed and did speech therapy for 12 years starting at age 1. So I am basically proof that teaching only speech and being predominately oral IS possible and CAN work successfully.

Hi, I am about identical to you in background.

I am not as successful as you..

So that must be proof it does not work. (By your reasoning.)

web730 · 10-01-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

wow, awesome. kudos on getting the PhD! Are u getting a PhD in speech therapy?
as for my connection - i am profoundly deaf with 85-90 dB loss in both ears (w/ two hearing aids) and am 100% oral. (although i did take an ASL class in college, it was fun) I was mainstreamed and did speech therapy for 12 years starting at age 1. So I am basically proof that teaching only speech and being predominately oral IS possible and CAN work successfully.

I'm profoundly deaf (almost same as your 87-93 db loss in my both ears) yet I attended deaf school and college. Learned ASL little late yet I made out pretty good. Never wanted to learn to speech cuz I'm too spoiled with the ASL.

jillio · 10-01-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Hi, I am about identical to you in background.

I am not as successful as you..

So that must be proof it does not work. (By your reasoning.)

There you go! Bott has proved it!

**Bottesini** · 10-01-2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There you go! Bott has proved it!

Thank you. I will expect you to send me the debate prize! I will probably get it at the same time I get the chocolate from Chevy57 for winning his sign language test.

**Daredevel7** · 10-01-2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by web730

I'm profoundly deaf (almost same as your 87-93 db loss in my both ears) yet I attended deaf school and college. Learned ASL little late yet I made out pretty good. Never wanted to learn to speech cuz I'm too spoiled with the ASL.

This is quite interesting...... is this a typical response of someone who tries to do BiBi?

jillio · 10-01-2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Thank you. I will expect you to send me the debate prize! I will probably get it at the same time I get the chocolate from Chevy57 for winning his sign language test.

I don't think I'd cancel any important plans to wait for the mail if I were you.

sirena rossa · 10-01-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Hi, I am about identical to you in background.

I am not as successful as you..

So that must be proof it does not work. (By your reasoning.)

Hiya Bottesini, same hearing loss? do u wear HA's too?

but i actually AM proof that it DOES work AT TIMES.

I guess the bottom line is that not everyone is the same. What is right for one person isn't for the other. And what it comes down to is that a deaf child should never be denied the possibility of learning to speak nor should s/he be denied the chance to learn ASL. I dont think ASL should be banned either, however i am against using ASL as a primary method. I think it should be BiBi at the very least.

jillio · 10-01-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

This is quite interesting...... is this a typical response of someone who tries to do BiBi?

This is an individual response from an individual based on individual circumstances. You keep attempting to generalize from singualr situations, and it can't be done.

web730 · 10-01-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

This is quite interesting...... is this a typical response of someone who tries to do BiBi?

Actually, my deaf school started BiBi later after I started attending there. But they're still teaching BiBi since early 1980 or little before.

web730 · 10-01-2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

This is an individual response from an individual based on individual circumstances. You keep attempting to generalize from singualr situations, and it can't be done.

Yep, that is a very honest & unbiased answer, eventually.

**Bottesini** · 10-01-2008, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

Hiya Bottesini, same hearing loss? do u wear HA's too?

but i actually AM proof that it DOES work AT TIMES.

I guess the bottom line is that not everyone is the same. What is right for one person isn't for the other. And what it comes down to is that a deaf child should never be denied the possibility of learning to speak nor should s/he be denied the chance to learn ASL. I dont think ASL should be banned either, however i am against using ASL as a primary method. I think it should be BiBi at the very least.

Yes to both your questions. Be polite to me. I bite.

jillio · 10-01-2008, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

Hiya Bottesini, same hearing loss? do u wear HA's too?

but i actually AM proof that it DOES work AT TIMES.

I guess the bottom line is that not everyone is the same. What is right for one person isn't for the other. And what it comes down to is that a deaf child should never be denied the possibility of learning to speak nor should s/he be denied the chance to learn ASL. I dont think ASL should be banned either, however i am against using ASL as a primary method. I think it should be BiBi at the very least.

You are support for the fact that it has been effective in your case, according to your reports. That is all that can be substantiated by your individual experience.

That's what we keep trying to get across. That individual experience is great, and we can all learn something from it, but it cannot be generalized to an entire population, nor can it be the foundation for the decisions regarding educational policy that affect an entire population.

**Daredevel7** · 10-01-2008, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

This is an individual response from an individual based on individual circumstances. You keep attempting to generalize from singualr situations, and it can't be done.

Ouch.

I only asked a question. Yes there are individual responses, but theres also common majority responses. You proved it yourself by saying that the majority of deaf children struggles with speech. That's a majority response. I asked if this was a typical response. If not, then I know its an individual response. If yes, then its a majority response.

jillio · 10-01-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Yes to both your questions. Be polite to me. I bite.

Yeppers! I can remmy being bitten from time to time!

jillio · 10-02-2008, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Ouch.

I only asked a question. Yes there are individual responses, but theres also common majority responses. You proved it yourself by saying that the majority of deaf children struggles with speech. That's a majority response. I asked if this was a typical response. If not, then I know its an individual response. If yes, then its a majority response.

I based my statement on hard data and empirical evidence, not opinion.

The only way you can know if it is a majority response is through data collection insuring that you have taken responses from randomly assigned participants in great enough numbers with random selection to insure that you have a representative sample of the population as a whole.

That is why, when I use the word "majority" I make sure that the data supports it.

AlleyCat · 10-02-2008, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep, and also, the instance of asking someone to say a word, knowing what to expect, is just more of the prior knowledge variable than invalidates the results. As Shel so eloquently expalined.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

Alleycat, that is awesome, 16/20. I have had that type of test done to me too. and it was an audiologist who I never talked to before, and i got A LOT of them correct. its true, u do kinda have to think for a few seconds. but hearing people do that too. if person A walked into a room saying something totally random, there's a very good chance that person B is gonna reply with "what did u say?" Or even if person A & B are in the same room already and A still says something totally unexpected or out of context. person B may react with "huh, what?" they may THINK they know what was said, but not know for sure.

Sirena, I was just thinking the same thing. I hear many people say "pardon me?" all the time. I never knew whether they missed the entire sentence or just a few select words (from lack of attention, background noise, whatever reason.) Anyway, I asked my OTHER roommate who just came home from work tonight about the whole "milk" and "beer" thing. The difference is that he is deaf. I didn't give him any background information regarding this thread; I turned off my voice, and had him lipread both words. He had no prior knowledge, no sound, no speech discrimination. He got both instantly. The only reason I mention this is in reference to jazzy's post -- in that she misunderstood when she tried this -- it is indeed subjective for everyone. My point was that it CAN BE possible for us deaf people to differentiate between the words.

Now, as far as using the prior knowledge variable in Jillio's post -- it is really no different than anyone putting on a blindfold for 5 minutes and asking them to feel the difference between an apple and an orange. It may take a second of feeling the two objects to comprehend the difference, but the difference is there, prior knowledge or not. I cannot possibly understand what it is like to be blind -- since I am not, but I should be able to detect a difference immediately between those two objects. This is what I'm trying to explain here -- that prior knowledge or not, the difference between certain words is still there, whether every deaf person can lipread it or not. It just should not be said that there is NO difference between "milk" and "beer" when clearly many of us have disputed it.

Geez .. I have already posted one too many on this subject, I owe another beer already -- I'm done! Cheers!

sirena rossa · 10-02-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by web730

I'm profoundly deaf (almost same as your 87-93 db loss in my both ears) yet I attended deaf school and college. Learned ASL little late yet I made out pretty good. Never wanted to learn to speech cuz I'm too spoiled with the ASL.

lol, wow. not even a little bit?

**Daredevel7** · 10-02-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I based my statement on hard data and empirical evidence, not opinion.

The only way you can know if it is a majority response is through data collection insuring that you have taken responses from randomly assigned participants in great enough numbers with random selection to insure that you have a representative sample of the population as a whole.

That is why, when I use the word "majority" I make sure that the data supports it.

Obviously I don't have the capability for data collecting and whatnot. Therefore, I asked if it's a representative answer of those in the BiBi progreams. Otherwise, I wouldn't know. No harm in asking questions.

sirena rossa · 10-02-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlleyCat

Sirena, I was just thinking the same thing. I hear many people say "pardon me?" all the time. I never knew whether they missed the entire sentence or just a few select words (from lack of attention, background noise, whatever reason.) Anyway, I asked my OTHER roommate who just came home from work tonight about the whole "milk" and "beer" thing. The difference is that he is deaf. I didn't give him any background information regarding this thread; I turned off my voice, and had him lipread both words. He had no prior knowledge, no sound, no speech discrimination. He got both instantly. The only reason I mention this is in reference to jazzy's post -- in that she misunderstood when she tried this -- it is indeed subjective for everyone. My point was that it CAN BE possible for us deaf people to differentiate between the words.

Now, as far as using the prior knowledge variable in Jillio's post -- it is really no different than anyone putting on a blindfold for 5 minutes and asking them to feel the difference between an apple and an orange. It may take a second of feeling the two objects to comprehend the difference, but the difference is there, prior knowledge or not. I cannot possibly understand what it is like to be blind -- since I am not, but I should be able to detect a difference immediately between those two objects. This is what I'm trying to explain here -- that prior knowledge or not, the difference between certain words is still there, whether every deaf person can lipread it or not. It just should not be said that there is NO difference between "milk" and "beer" when clearly many of us have disputed it.

Geez .. I have already posted one too many on this subject, I owe another beer already -- I'm done! Cheers!

yeah ur right, its a pretty individual, subjective and varied type of thing. Thank u for putting it that way - it CAN be possible! that was exactly my point too.
While statistics and data can back up certain facts or whatever. there ARE individual and real-life experiences out there that greatly differ. and those can make all the difference in the world.
Anyhoo, yeah Milk & Beer took us all on quite the tangent!

for ur next beer, u oughta try Shipyard's Pumpkinhead! delicious stuff! i love fall brews. hahaha. Cheers!

AlleyCat · 10-02-2008, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirena rossa

yeah ur right, its a pretty individual, subjective and varied type of thing. Thank u for putting it that way - it CAN be possible! that was exactly my point too.
While statistics and data can back up certain facts or whatever. there ARE individual and real-life experiences out there that greatly differ. and those can make all the difference in the world.
Anyhoo, yeah Milk & Beer took us all on quite the tangent!

for ur next beer, u oughta try Shipyard's Pumpkinhead! delicious stuff! i love fall brews. hahaha. Cheers!

Never heard of it!

How good is it ?? I'll ask for it next time I go out!!

typeingtornado19 · 10-02-2008, 01:09 AM

where is the hell no section?

**shezzbeav** · 10-02-2008, 01:23 AM

No BLOODY way!

ASL should NOT be excluded from Deaf Education programs.

ASL plays a MAJOR part in the Deaf community, thus students taking Deaf Education should NOT be denied access to ASL/Auslan/NZSL, or any other sign language where ever they live.

BradB08 · 10-02-2008, 01:38 AM

You know, until I read about it in this thread, I never realized that ASL with proper grammar was called SEE.

Is this just a way to peg people with proper grammar as not being true users of ASL?

**shel90** · 10-02-2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradB08

You know, until I read about it in this thread, I never realized that ASL with proper grammar was called SEE.

Is this just a way to peg people with proper grammar as not being true users of ASL?

It is like using spoken English but with ASL syntax and structure. Same concept.

**shel90** · 10-02-2008, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You are support for the fact that it has been effective in your case, according to your reports. That is all that can be substantiated by your individual experience.

That's what we keep trying to get across. That individual experience is great, and we can all learn something from it, but it cannot be generalized to an entire population, nor can it be the foundation for the decisions regarding educational policy that affect an entire population.

Yes, I agree..when I first started the grad program in Deaf ed, I thought the same as the others...try oral first and then ASL later if it wasnt successful. My views of that changed when I saw what happened to those kids' language and cognitive processing development with that approach. Ouch! It was an eye-opener. There were deaf kids with no other congnitive disabilities who were like 8 or 9 years old (I noticed that seems to be the average age where the deficients become very much obvious) who had no concept of next year or next month or had no concept between man/woman and boy/girl. I was like..."oooh that is so wrong!"

Have a good day everyone..I am off to teach!

**Angel** · 10-02-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

But Jillo is right about you having the pior knowledge helping you with being able to distinguish between those because you were expecting your friend to say those two words.

Now, I wonder if the same can be said if you were unexpectly pulled into a booth with a glass and a complete stranger whom you have never met saying those two words to you without the prior knowledge? Now, that is what Jillo is trying to tell you.

To me, it does not matter whether we were expecting someone to say those words or not still it was clearly for me to be able to tell the differences and I was able to picked it up quickly -- the "L" and "R" letters without guessing..

Perhaps if someone has a long moustache or beard then yes it may be more difficult and impossible for me to read or if someone has an unfamiliar accent. I

, I haven't experience that one yet but it will be very interesting.

**Angel** · 10-02-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Not me, I still misunderstood them.

by asking someone to say those 2 words?

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10-02-2008, 01:09 AM	#174 (permalink)
typeingtornado19 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,142 Blog Entries: 1	where is the hell no section?

10-02-2008, 01:23 AM	#175 (permalink)
shezzbeav ...just a bloody beaver Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,236	No BLOODY way! ASL should NOT be excluded from Deaf Education programs. ASL plays a MAJOR part in the Deaf community, thus students taking Deaf Education should NOT be denied access to ASL/Auslan/NZSL, or any other sign language where ever they live.

10-02-2008, 01:38 AM	#176 (permalink)
BradB08 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,676 Blog Entries: 1	You know, until I read about it in this thread, I never realized that ASL with proper grammar was called SEE. Is this just a way to peg people with proper grammar as not being true users of ASL?