Feelings on how a Deaf child should be taught - Page 4

**shel90** · 06-13-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celticty

I didn't hear about that. My teacher never mentioned it.

Yea, he did at the age of 15. Sad...

Celticty · 06-13-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yea, he did at the age of 15. Sad...

How much you wan't to bet his mother pushed him in that direction.

**shel90** · 06-13-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celticty

How much you wan't to bet his mother pushed him in that direction.

We can only speculate...I wouldnt be surprised though.

faire_jour · 06-13-2008, 03:33 PM

I would just say that it would be hard living a life in constant conflict. His parents constantly fought about what was right for him and from what the movie showed he wasn't a stellar oral sucess. He was frustrated and unable to communicate very basic needs....doesn't sound like a happy life to me.

I also heard that in his teen years he had begun to ask to learn sign for himself, but that his mother insisted that he was fine and refused to allow it....again, unconfirmable.

**shel90** · 06-13-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I would just say that it would be hard living a life in constant conflict. His parents constantly fought about what was right for him and from what the movie showed he wasn't a stellar oral sucess. He was frustrated and unable to communicate very basic needs....doesn't sound like a happy life to me.

Right, doesnt sound like a happy life to me either. Heck, I should know..growing up oral only was so difficult so I grew up very unhappy but not knowing why.

Boult · 06-13-2008, 03:35 PM

Regarding his death, see the comment on this blog; For a Deaf Son -- - Logtar’s Blog -

as well as this one too: R.I.P. Tommy -- - Logtar’s Blog -

faire_jour · 06-13-2008, 03:47 PM

Thank you so much for the information.

rick48 · 06-13-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

You can't even see the perspective of NAD in regards to early implantation? I think it is a rather conservative, but definitely well thought out and reasonable position. By implanting a child before they can be involved in the decision you are permantely changing THEIR body without their consent. I know you (general you) are their parent, but why do you (again, general you) have the right to put a child through an invasive surgery in a situation that is obviously not life threatening? Especially when there are so many other non-surgical options available.

A parent is supposed to be a steward over a child's body until they are mature enough to make their own decisions, but often in America children are viewed as property that parents can do with as they wish. (Sorry, that last bit is more about my feeling on America and our tolerence of child hitting and other childhood issues than CI's specifically)"

If you are directing your comments to me, then you should first familiarize yourself with the NAD's original position on cochlear implants for children which they trumpeted through a hearing person at the time when our daughter was implanted in 1989 and not the postion they adopted after they began losing membership and their own Board members were opting for implants for themselves and for their children.

I am the parent and as as such entrusted with the responsibility and obligation to make decisions on behalf of my child. Last time I looked, there are very few infants and yes, even 5 year olds, who can make intelligent, mature and rational decisions on their own without parental input and guidance.

BTW please enlighten all of us as the many non-surgical options available to profoundly deaf children who do not benefit from HAs that allows them to acquire access to spoken language as easily and as successfully as the cochlear implant.

You are considering a cochlear implant for your 5 year old. Do you seriously contend that she is making a well informed and reasoned decision or merely agreeing with what Mommy and Daddy want her to do? What are her views on the research she has read regarding the correlation between onset of deafness and implantation?

Giving our daughter the opportunity to access speech and sound and to allow her to be an active participant in her family, neighborhood and community is not to be dismissed as easily as you seek to do by labeling our decision as doing to her what we "wish"."Oh, and Rick, would your chapter of AG Bell welcomed me, really? When I communicate with my daughter we are voice-off most of the time. That was their problem with us. I had a "friend" who was highly involved with AG Bell, and they invited us to an activity. We were having a good time, when she came up to us and said that "all the signing was making some of the other parents uncomfortable" so could we "at least voice some", especially when just my husband and I were chatting. I said no, and we left.

Actually, yes we would have although we would probably wonder why in a group of people who are not fluent in sign you would choose to be voice-off when communicating with them but getting the sense of your personality through your posts it was most likely done intentionally by you to seek a confrontation and to be rude. It seems that you achieved the response you desired and can relate yet another instance of how "badly" you were treated by those god awful "oralists" from AGBell.

I have no doubt you have many other such stories to regale us with because it cannot possibly be you and your attitude now can it?
Rick

Celticty · 06-13-2008, 03:54 PM

Yes it looks like Thomas , age 15, died December 9 2003.

faire_jour · 06-13-2008, 04:08 PM

I wasn't voice-off when communicating with other people. I am voice-off when using ASL.

Children with hearing loss were taught to speak long before hearing aids were invented. Bell himself tried, right?

I was looking into an implant for my daughter, but our audiologist says he will not implant unless we drop signing, so it isn't really an option for us. I do actually have friends who have implanted their children very young (18 months) and yes, I know that they struggled with the decision. But everyone of them used ASL with their children too. They are a part of the Deaf community along with my daughter.

And for your information my daughter was born hearing. That is why we considered an implant.

**shel90** · 06-13-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Actually, yes we would have although we would probably wonder why in a group of people who are not fluent in sign you would choose to be voice-off when communicating with them but getting the sense of your personality through your posts it was most likely done intentionally by you to seek a confrontation and to be rude. It seems that you achieved the response you desired and can relate yet another instance of how "badly" you were treated by those god awful "oralists" from AGBell.

I have no doubt you have many other such stories to regale us with because it cannot possibly be you and your attitude now can it?
Rick

That's how it is like for many deaf children..they are put in an environment where they dont have full access to communication. Maybe it is good for those parents to get a dose of reality what it must be like for their children but judging from what fair jour said, they probably didnt even stop to think and try to really put themselves in their deaf children's shoes. Like I said, it must be about them, not about their children.

**shel90** · 06-13-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I wasn't voice-off when communicating with other people. I am voice-off when using ASL.

Children with hearing loss were taught to speak long before hearing aids were invented. Bell himself tried, right?

I was looking into an implant for my daughter, but our audiologist says he will not implant unless we drop signing, so it isn't really an option for us. I do actually have friends who have implanted their children very young (18 months) and yes, I know that they struggled with the decision. But everyone of them used ASL with their children too. They are a part of the Deaf community along with my daughter.

And for your information my daughter was born hearing. That is why we considered an implant.

Tell the audiologist or doctors that it is not their job to tell you how u can communicate with your daughter. Arrogant jerks!!!

rick48 · 06-13-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I wasn't voice-off when communicating with other people. I am voice-off when using ASL.

Children with hearing loss were taught to speak long before hearing aids were invented. Bell himself tried, right?

I was looking into an implant for my daughter, but our audiologist says he will not implant unless we drop signing, so it isn't really an option for us. I do actually have friends who have implanted their children very young (18 months) and yes, I know that they struggled with the decision. But everyone of them used ASL with their children too. They are a part of the Deaf community along with my daughter.

And for your information my daughter was born hearing. That is why we considered an implant.

So was my daughter and yes, children were taught to speak long before HAs and CIs and ask anyone of them who has a CI and they will tell you, as they told us, how much easier their lives would have been growing up if the CI had been available to them when they were children.

Still waiting for you to enlighten us as to those many options that allow for profoundly deaf children who do not benefit from HAs to acquire acess to sound and speech more easily and with more success than a cochlear implant.
Rick

faire_jour · 06-13-2008, 05:10 PM

My whole point is why is the value put on learning to speak? Why is that your measure of success?

rick48 · 06-13-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

rick48 - Excellent posts!

loml,

Thanks but this is a tough crowd!

Rick

**shel90** · 06-13-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

My whole point is why is the value put on learning to speak? Why is that your measure of success?

Some people think that's the most important thing while others dont. For me, having knowledge, being self-sufficient, and education is the most important things.

rick48 · 06-13-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

My whole point is why is the value put on learning to speak? Why is that your measure of success?

It is not my measure of success, however, if you cannot see the value of being able to effectively and fluently communicate orally with the other over 99% of the population who use oral communication as either their primary or only means of communication, then that is your problem, not mine and definitely not my daughter's.

However, still waiting.....
Rick

faire_jour · 06-13-2008, 05:28 PM

Waiting for what? I never claimed that without an implant a child could easily learn spoken language (and you can't claim they will), I merely stated that there are other options...and there are.
I wanted my daughter to spend her childhood learning and playing not in a therapy room. She has shown that she is unable to learn spoken language easily and without major intervention, so it is not the focus of our lives.
I was told by every CI parent that my daughter would need "intensive" "constant" and "focused" aural rehab. If you are saying that CI kids no longer need that, I'm very interested in what has changed.

Oh and you would have to learn an awful lot of languages to be able to communicate with 99% of the people just in the US.

Deborah · 06-13-2008, 06:08 PM

To me, the measure of success should be: happy, healthy, productive member of society. There are many ways that all of these things can be accomplished. That, of course, brings it all back to something said at the beginning of this thread--each unique child should be educated in an uniquely individual way. AND the WHOLE CHILD should be considered--the emotional/social/physical/psychological/spiritual/academic make-up of EACH child is very individualized. Also, the family and community environment and resources are a HUGE factor in what CAN be done to help each child.

coolgirlspyer90 · 06-13-2008, 06:21 PM

WHen i had my CI surgery, I already knew the risks and taht it would be a permant thing. But My parents didn't decide for me to get a CI, I did. IT was my decision. But my parents were signing to other deaf people that we know as i grew up with them since i was 3, was asking them what they think about me having an CI, they said: "no no let her be." But to me by my parents asking them felt like the blame was on them about my having of a CI. I was 9 years old when i had a CI. But to me for the people who is thinking about having their child have a CI, you might want to ask them first before you do anything. Its their decision really. Because I made that decision to get one. So, If the child doesn't want one, let it be. If the child does. then you can do something. Hope i didn't ruin anything about my saying to this. I'm only 14 lol.

coolgirlspyer90 · 06-13-2008, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

I wasn't voice-off when communicating with other people. I am voice-off when using ASL.

Children with hearing loss were taught to speak long before hearing aids were invented. Bell himself tried, right?

I was looking into an implant for my daughter, but our audiologist says he will not implant unless we drop signing, so it isn't really an option for us. I do actually have friends who have implanted their children very young (18 months) and yes, I know that they struggled with the decision. But everyone of them used ASL with their children too. They are a part of the Deaf community along with my daughter.

And for your information my daughter was born hearing. That is why we considered an implant.

I was born hearing, i lost my hearing to AutoImmune hearing loss when i was 3. umm, At 4 years old I got my HA in both ears. My right ear is hard of hearing but my left ear isnt. I had speech for 11 years so far. And If your daughter wants an Implant thats great. Maybe you should ask her first.. thats my opinion. But do whatever you want to do. I decided to have an implant when i was 9. I wanted to be able to hear again. I know most people who are deaf are Deaf Proud. I am too. But I'm also Hearing Proud. I can be both. I'm able to go back and forth. If i want to be deaf, i just take off my CI and HA. But yeah..

Deborah · 06-13-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolgirlspyer90

I was born hearing, i lost my hearing to AutoImmune hearing loss when i was 3. umm, At 4 years old I got my HA in both ears. My right ear is hard of hearing but my left ear isnt. I had speech for 11 years so far. And If your daughter wants an Implant thats great. Maybe you should ask her first.. thats my opinion. But do whatever you want to do. I decided to have an implant when i was 9. I wanted to be able to hear again. I know most people who are deaf are Deaf Proud. I am too. But I'm also Hearing Proud. I can be both. I'm able to go back and forth. If i want to be deaf, i just take off my CI and HA. But yeah..

You go girl!

You are part of that younger generation that is tolerant and accepting of BOTH ideas--and you seem to be happy fitting in with BOTH sides. I think that your generation is teaching all of us older people a lot!

I love your words: Deaf Proud AND Hearing Proud! There ARE people who feel BOTH!

rick48 · 06-13-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Waiting for what? I never claimed that without an implant a child could easily learn spoken language (and you can't claim they will), I merely stated that there are other options...and there are.
I wanted my daughter to spend her childhood learning and playing not in a therapy room. She has shown that she is unable to learn spoken language easily and without major intervention, so it is not the focus of our lives.
I was told by every CI parent that my daughter would need "intensive" "constant" and "focused" aural rehab. If you are saying that CI kids no longer need that, I'm very interested in what has changed.

Oh and you would have to learn an awful lot of languages to be able to communicate with 99% of the people just in the US.

Let me see, from the age of 13 months to 4 my daughter received a maximum of 3 hours of therapy a week individually and 2 hours a week in a group setting. Over the course of the year achieving the maximum weekly amount was the exception and not the rule. In both individual and group settings the "therapy" was play based. For instantance her private thrapist would often sit and play with my daughter's Barbies and "teach" language to her in that setting or play games. From age 4 to about 2nd grade it was 1 hour a week in school during music. From 3rd grade to 8th grade, 1 hour a week after school but not in the summers. From 9th grade until 11th grade 1 hour a week once every 2-3 weeks during the school year. She stopped after 11th grade.

Yes, that is such "evidence" of spending her childhood in a "therapy room" isn't it? Amazing that she found time for dance, softball, basketball, skiing, field hockey, yearbook and countless other things with her friends.

Yes, your friends are right about the rehab needed post-ci if you are to do it right but that therapy, especially at a young age is play based.

Yes, you would have to learn a lot of languages to converse orally with those 99% who speak orally in the US of A, so she will just have to settle for the 97% who speak English as opposed to the less then 1% who communicate primarily through a manual language.

If you are happy with the choices you made for your child then you should be so, we are extremely happy with the choices we made for our daughter and as an adult she has told us how thankful she is for the choices we made for her. However, the choices we made were for our child only, not for anyone else's and it is disturbing that you seem to feel the constant need to put down the choices and methods that others have made for their children.

Still waiting.....
Rick

Deborah · 06-13-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote from Rick * In both individual and group settings the "therapy" was play based. For instance her private therapist would often sit and play with my daughter's Barbies and "teach" language to her in that setting or play games. *

For my daughter, playing with the Fisher Price and Little Tikes doll houses were a big part of "play therapy." At the age of 2, she fell in love with a cute doll house with a pink roof--her favorite thing was the little swing. When she began early intervention, she would run to the house and push the little people in the swings. First she would make the sign for swing, then she would say Whee!, then she would say swing. Later, that house/people/furniture provided a lot of fun for her, and she learned a lot of vocabulary while playing with it--"the mama is sitting in the chair, the girl is swinging, the boy is playing with the dog..." Sigh! So cute! And so much fun, fun, fun!! I recently sold all of that stuff at my yard sale--it was hard to part with it!! Lots of good memories playing with Fisher Price and Little Tikes toys!

faire_jour · 06-13-2008, 10:15 PM

Honestly, 5 hours a week seems like way way way too much to me. I understand that it is play therapy, but it is still adult-led and not in a normal, natural setting. That is what I have a problem with. I also believe that every deaf child has the right to be given a language that they can have 100% access to, and spoken English is not that language.

(And I believe that 10% of Americans speak Spanish as their primary language)

rick48 · 06-14-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah

Quote from Rick * In both individual and group settings the "therapy" was play based. For instance her private therapist would often sit and play with my daughter's Barbies and "teach" language to her in that setting or play games. *

For my daughter, playing with the Fisher Price and Little Tikes doll houses were a big part of "play therapy." At the age of 2, she fell in love with a cute doll house with a pink roof--her favorite thing was the little swing. When she began early intervention, she would run to the house and push the little people in the swings. First she would make the sign for swing, then she would say Whee!, then she would say swing. Later, that house/people/furniture provided a lot of fun for her, and she learned a lot of vocabulary while playing with it--"the mama is sitting in the chair, the girl is swinging, the boy is playing with the dog..." Sigh! So cute! And so much fun, fun, fun!! I recently sold all of that stuff at my yard sale--it was hard to part with it!! Lots of good memories playing with Fisher Price and Little Tikes toys!

Deborah,

Same here. We just donated a lot of the girls's toys when they were young but at the last minute, I pulled the Barbie Ferrari from the box as it had just too many happy memories!
Rick

rick48 · 06-14-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Honestly, 5 hours a week seems like way way way too much to me. I understand that it is play therapy, but it is still adult-led and not in a normal, natural setting. That is what I have a problem with. I also believe that every deaf child has the right to be given a language that they can have 100% access to, and spoken English is not that language.

(And I believe that 10% of Americans speak Spanish as their primary language)

FJ,

And that is why we are all different for it was not for our daughter and quite frankly, it was far more educational, fun and natural then the "Mommy and me" crap that our younger hearing daughter participated in. Our private S&L therapist has the most amazing collection of games, toys and books that anyone can even imagine. Even more amazing is how much fun she made those sessions such that our daughter's hearing friends would come over at times and be a part of them.

90%, ok still a hell of a lot more people then less than 1%.
Rick

**Cheri** · 06-14-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celticty

There are many different thoughts on how a

Deaf child should be taught. Either they should be taught how to speak in order to fit in to a hearing world or else they should be taught ASL because it is easier for them to learn and communicate. I wanted to ask everyone on here how they feel about the matter.

I prefer if a deaf child be taught to speak and sign and be part of the world, not just deaf world and not just the hearing world.

**Cheri** · 06-14-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faire_jour

TC is a very old philosophy. It is a lot of talking and signing at the same time. It has been proven to provide a very bad English model and a very bad ASL model too. Most schools and teachers are moving away from TC.

In TC program they do not use ASL, they use SEE along with speech. ASL is not English.

I'm in agreement with rick48 on the use of voices. I think that's most important not mute.

loml · 06-14-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Our private S&L therapist has the most amazing collection of games, toys and books that anyone can even imagine. Even more amazing is how much fun she made those sessions such that our daughter's hearing friends would come over at times and be a part of them.

rick48 - What a wonderful learning opportunity for your daughter and her friends! For you too as parents, a professional that can make learning fun with engaging activities!

The sign of a good "teacher" is one you always remember.

06-13-2008, 05:28 PM	#108 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	Waiting for what? I never claimed that without an implant a child could easily learn spoken language (and you can't claim they will), I merely stated that there are other options...and there are. I wanted my daughter to spend her childhood learning and playing not in a therapy room. She has shown that she is unable to learn spoken language easily and without major intervention, so it is not the focus of our lives. I was told by every CI parent that my daughter would need "intensive" "constant" and "focused" aural rehab. If you are saying that CI kids no longer need that, I'm very interested in what has changed. Oh and you would have to learn an awful lot of languages to be able to communicate with 99% of the people just in the US. Last edited by faire_jour; 06-13-2008 at 05:45 PM. Reason: to add a sarcastic remark

06-13-2008, 06:08 PM	#109 (permalink)
Deborah Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 122	Measure of Success To me, the measure of success should be: happy, healthy, productive member of society. There are many ways that all of these things can be accomplished. That, of course, brings it all back to something said at the beginning of this thread--each unique child should be educated in an uniquely individual way. AND the WHOLE CHILD should be considered--the emotional/social/physical/psychological/spiritual/academic make-up of EACH child is very individualized. Also, the family and community environment and resources are a HUGE factor in what CAN be done to help each child.

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06-13-2008, 03:33 PM	#94 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	I would just say that it would be hard living a life in constant conflict. His parents constantly fought about what was right for him and from what the movie showed he wasn't a stellar oral sucess. He was frustrated and unable to communicate very basic needs....doesn't sound like a happy life to me. I also heard that in his teen years he had begun to ask to learn sign for himself, but that his mother insisted that he was fine and refused to allow it....again, unconfirmable.

06-13-2008, 03:47 PM	#97 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	Thank you so much for the information.

06-13-2008, 03:54 PM	#99 (permalink)
Celticty Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kent, Washington Posts: 953	Yes it looks like Thomas , age 15, died December 9 2003.

06-13-2008, 04:08 PM	#100 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	I wasn't voice-off when communicating with other people. I am voice-off when using ASL. Children with hearing loss were taught to speak long before hearing aids were invented. Bell himself tried, right? I was looking into an implant for my daughter, but our audiologist says he will not implant unless we drop signing, so it isn't really an option for us. I do actually have friends who have implanted their children very young (18 months) and yes, I know that they struggled with the decision. But everyone of them used ASL with their children too. They are a part of the Deaf community along with my daughter. And for your information my daughter was born hearing. That is why we considered an implant.

06-13-2008, 05:10 PM	#104 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	My whole point is why is the value put on learning to speak? Why is that your measure of success?

06-13-2008, 06:21 PM	#110 (permalink)
coolgirlspyer90 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,635	WHen i had my CI surgery, I already knew the risks and taht it would be a permant thing. But My parents didn't decide for me to get a CI, I did. IT was my decision. But my parents were signing to other deaf people that we know as i grew up with them since i was 3, was asking them what they think about me having an CI, they said: "no no let her be." But to me by my parents asking them felt like the blame was on them about my having of a CI. I was 9 years old when i had a CI. But to me for the people who is thinking about having their child have a CI, you might want to ask them first before you do anything. Its their decision really. Because I made that decision to get one. So, If the child doesn't want one, let it be. If the child does. then you can do something. Hope i didn't ruin anything about my saying to this. I'm only 14 lol.

06-13-2008, 08:07 PM	#114 (permalink)
Deborah Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 122	Quote from Rick * In both individual and group settings the "therapy" was play based. For instance her private therapist would often sit and play with my daughter's Barbies and "teach" language to her in that setting or play games. * For my daughter, playing with the Fisher Price and Little Tikes doll houses were a big part of "play therapy." At the age of 2, she fell in love with a cute doll house with a pink roof--her favorite thing was the little swing. When she began early intervention, she would run to the house and push the little people in the swings. First she would make the sign for swing, then she would say Whee!, then she would say swing. Later, that house/people/furniture provided a lot of fun for her, and she learned a lot of vocabulary while playing with it--"the mama is sitting in the chair, the girl is swinging, the boy is playing with the dog..." Sigh! So cute! And so much fun, fun, fun!! I recently sold all of that stuff at my yard sale--it was hard to part with it!! Lots of good memories playing with Fisher Price and Little Tikes toys!

06-13-2008, 10:15 PM	#115 (permalink)
faire_jour Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7,202	Honestly, 5 hours a week seems like way way way too much to me. I understand that it is play therapy, but it is still adult-led and not in a normal, natural setting. That is what I have a problem with. I also believe that every deaf child has the right to be given a language that they can have 100% access to, and spoken English is not that language. (And I believe that 10% of Americans speak Spanish as their primary language)