Originally Posted by Deborah

Hi--I am just wondering how classes in Bi-Bi schools work for kids who are not yet fluent in ASL. I would think that they would need an interpreter for a while, so that when the teacher is instructing completely in ASL, the kids who are not yet fluent in ASL can get the ASL instruction interpreted in English so that they can understand what the teacher is saying. Or maybe real-time captioning--somehow, kids who only understand English would need accommodations to help them grasp what is being said in ASL instruction. What works--interpreters, captioning, everything in print somehow? How do they keep from missing instruction if they don't yet know ASL very well?

Originally Posted by DURAY

There are three options in deaf education. the following are geared towards deaf students who used sign. the hard-of-hearing students will be fine wuith #3.

1) the deaf schools . most states have them, some have more than 1 (NY, CA, NC, PA, and ?). All have teachers (deaf or hearing) who signed. all students are deaf. Social life are great. Most are residentials, meaning deaf students board Sunday to Friday and go home on the weekends to parents who may or still know sign language. The only negative about deaf schools are the sexual, physical and/or mental abuses by/on/of deaf staff, who will tell "ratting" to law enforcement is "hearing" and that abuse is deaf behavior. And is segregation like Judith Heuman from the Clinton/Gore years complained when she visited MSSD.

2. the mainstreamed school. Most counties (and large cities) in the U.S. have a one central elementary school, middle school and high school where all the deaf students are bused. The teachers know sign language. Some kids are mainstreamed, taking regular classes with sign language interpreters. Social life is good with the other deaf kids. Negative? Not much. Is segregation like Judith Heuman from the Clinton/Gore years complained.

3. the local neighborhood schools. Favored by most leaders of people with disabilities who want integration and no treatment. For a deaf student, the resource room is lacking. 99% of special education teachers and staff are trained toward LD, AHDH, autism, etc not deaf. There are no support systems. No deaf clasmate, normal kids will make fun. No or less social life. Judith Heuman love this since money will be saved. AND SHE CAN SIGN!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Deborah

OK--but that is referring to something labeled as an "ASL school." Is a "Bi-Bi school" ACTUALLY an "ASL school"? What I mean is, why call it BI-BI when it is actually SINGULAR language and NOT BI-lingual? Are you saying that any deaf school that is considered "Bi-Bi" is ACTUALLY an "ASL only school"? For parents looking at deaf schools, it is very important that we understand exactly what kind of school it is--what kind of educational environment our children would be in if enrolled there. From the outside, the term Bi-Bi sounds good--it sounds like an equal presentation of TWO languages. Is this not actually the case? There is NOTHING wrong with having ASL only schools, of course, but shouldn't they be called that--"ASL schools" instead of "Bi-Bi schools"? If there was a school that claimed to be BI-lingual, maybe English and Spanish--neither language would take higher precedent--each language would be presented equally. So, a child who knows absolutely no ASL really would not do well in a "Bi-Bi program" because they would be expected to know ASL already before entering school there, right? See, there are many kids who would fail from the start there, then--it is NOT the right program for a child who is just learning sign. I know that adults can be immersed in classes and events where they would be expected to "just learn the language or be left out." But students who need to learn lots of concepts in order to graduate from high school cannot just be put into a foreign language classroom and expect to learn all of the concepts given to them in a foreign language that they do not know. They would have to FIRST learn the language and THEN they can learn the other subjects. They cannot learn the other subjects just by being put into a classroom that is totally presented in a language that they do not know. So, if a deaf school is really an "ASL only school" they should make that clear--if they are "Bi-Bi" then they should be using TWO languages equally. There could be children completely lost in the system if they are just expected to learn it by immersion and at the same time keep up with all of their core subjects(being presented ONLY in a different language that they are not yet fluent in). So, a child raised orally who wants to go to a deaf school later apparently would only do well at a deaf school that is TRULY bilingual--one that does not expect them to come into the school already fluent in a different language. If they want to learn ASL, they would be better off at a deaf school that will help them do that instead of at a school that expects them to already know it. So "Bi-Bi" only sounds like the right program for kids who are already fluent in ASL, not for kids who are not. And, if they are actually an "ASL school" instead of a "bilingual school" they should be clear about that. I am sure there are some WONDERFUL "Bi-Bi schools," although it seems like they should be called "ASL schools" instead so people will know that they should only consider them IF their child is already fluent in ASL. See how it can be confusing? If "Bi-Bi" means BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL, where is the equality of TWO languages? Maybe some are more accommodating to ASL learners than others-maybe some do not expect kids to come in already fluent. These things should be clear to parents who are looking into sending their kids to deaf schools--some would be a GREAT fit for their child and some would NOT be a good fit. I just wish there was a more organized way to go about the process of looking for the best schools for our kids--it seems that we are just left with whatever resources are available where we live, or we have to move elsewhere. Shouldn't there be ALL options for ALL kids no matter where they live? This may be the greatest challenge in trying to find the best education for our kids--we are totally limited by where we live or we have to move somewhere else when we find a resource that is better suited to our children. Wow--now that is a big challenge in deaf education--have ALL resources available to ALL deaf/hh kids--can it be done?

Originally Posted by Deborah

That is in reference to the description I was given about "Bi-Bi schools". I was told that, at "Bi-Bi schools" the students are expected to have ASL as their first language and English as their second language. My point is, many people already have their first language as English--so now what? Of course we can't "unlearn" our first language--what I am saying is--if English is already their first language then they CANNOT make it their second language. I guess what I am being told is this--if kids already have English first and want ASL second, a "Bi-Bi program" may not be the right place for them. It may only be a good placement for kids whose first language is already ASL. So saying a "Bi-Bi program" is the best kind of program ONLY applies to kids whose first language is ASL, right? A child whose first language is English may feel lost for a while in an ASL only program until they become more fluent--especially in a classroom setting. That cannot be good for them--to come in and want to learn science or social studies but ONLY being presented the material in a language that they do not yet know--they will be lost for a while and fall behind because they will have to spend a LOT of time simply learning ASL first before they can ever understand the science and social studies concepts being presented in ASL only. They have to learn the language first before they can grasp the concepts. That is fine for kids who already know ASL, but not for kids who do not know it yet. That is what I mean--no, I know we cannot unlearn our first language. When the statement was made that: ASL is expected to be the first language and English the second language--what I am saying is, for many kids, it is already "too late" to have that happen because they already have English first--there is no changing that. So, "Bi-Bi" would probably not be the best placement for them. BTW--from some of the descriptions here, some "Bi-Bi programs" do not seem to be equally presented--some should actually be called "ASL programs" if that is the MAIN language used with English being the SECOND and in some cases NOT equally used language. That is not really BI-lingual if BOTH languages are not equally used. Not a thing wrong with it, but just needs to be clearly stated so as to not cause confusion to parents who are looking for schools for their kids.

Originally Posted by shel90

Iam sorry but I have never heard of an "ASL" only program. That would be unethical and illegal not to teach deaf children English. The BiBI model follows the ESL programs. Go google it..ELL or ESL programs for hearing kids. Same concept.

Bi Bi is both ASL and English...the BIG difference between BiBi and TC is that BiBI keeps both languages separate and in their true forms while TC programs do not. Simple as that.

Many people...not in this thread but in other threads talk about ASL only programs..I have never heard of such a thing. Even back in the 1800s before the Milan Congress changed everything, the deaf ed programs were not ASL only. If there are such programs then the deaf kids would not know how to read and write in English at all.

I don't see why there is a big argument about ASL only programs when there is no such thing as far as I know.

Originally Posted by jillio

You misunderstand. It is not a singular language. ASL is the L1 language, English is the L2 language. It is an ESL atmosphere. The programs that use a singluar language are the oral programs and the TC programs. They use English only.

Originally Posted by Deborah

So an English speaker will get LOTS of help learning ASL as a second language in a Bi-Bi program? That is all I am really wondering--how much help does someone get in a Bi-Bi program if they don't know ASL? Apparently there can be vast differences between Bi-Bi programs. Maybe some are VERY helpful to English speakers who know little to no ASL when they begin school there. And maybe others are much less helpful and expect kids to already be fluent in ASL. Someone described THEIR Bi-Bi school as an ASL school--that is what they called it, not me--and their descriptions of THEIR Bi-Bi school was that kids should be fluent in ASL and must know ASL in order to do well at THEIR Bi-Bi school. It is the description of THAT school that sounded as if there was definitely a singular language going on at THAT school--this doesn't necessarily apply to other Bi-Bi schools, but I was wondering if it did or not.

An English speaking, ASL learning student needs to feel comfortable in a school as they are learning. If accommodations are made to help these students, then that would be a good program for them. If accommodations are not made--if they are expected to already be fluent in ASL and beyond the just-beginning-to-learn stage--then it would not be a good program for them. Maybe some Bi-Bi programs would be a much better fit for them than others--maybe some ARE more bilingual than others--maybe some DO help English speakers learn ASL more than others. Maybe some here are saying that their Bi-Bi program IS bilingual--and maybe some are saying that theirs is not so much(more ASL than English). The kids who know lots of English and only a little bit of ASL needs lots of help in making the transition from knowing a singular language--English--to becoming bilingual--knowing both English and ASL. If that help is there, then that is great. if not, then its not so good for these kids. I hope the help is there for them in most Bi-Bi schools--it is definitely a necessary part of the bilingual aspect of the Bi-Bi concept.

Originally Posted by Deborah

Hi--I am just wondering how classes in Bi-Bi schools work for kids who are not yet fluent in ASL. I would think that they would need an interpreter for a while, so that when the teacher is instructing completely in ASL, the kids who are not yet fluent in ASL can get the ASL instruction interpreted in English so that they can understand what the teacher is saying. Or maybe real-time captioning--somehow, kids who only understand English would need accommodations to help them grasp what is being said in ASL instruction. What works--interpreters, captioning, everything in print somehow? How do they keep from missing instruction if they don't yet know ASL very well?

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I was like that at 13 years old and I didn't know ASL at all. Immersion is the best way to go. It's not all that different from American students going overseas to a school that doen't speak English as their first language.

Originally Posted by jillio

Of course students who need assistance will get it. But chances are great that they will not need assistance in learning ASL, as immersion alone will place them in the environment necessary to learn the language. You would be amazed at how quickly a formerly oral deaf student will become fluent in ASL, simply because it utilizes their strengths in processing. It is not, in the vast majority of cases, the tedious procedure of teaching spoken language to a deaf child. Therapy and directed learning are largely not necessary for an older deaf student to learn ASL. Simple exposure and interaction with 100% access are all that is necessary. You seem to be equating the learning of ASL by a deaf individual with the same tedious, directed process necessary for them to learn spoken language. Or with a hearing person learning ASL. It is not the same.

Curriculum is presented bilingually. While teacher directed instruction is in ASL, all print materials, such as textbooks are in English. Communication between peers would be primarily ASL, but for the deaf student (whether formerly oral or not), that would certainly be an improvement over all oral communication between peers in speech in a mainstream environment. Likewise with communication between student and teacher, other faculty, and staff.

Perhaps the person to which you refer called their program an ASL school, because a true Bi-Bi program is one of the extremely few places where a child is exposed to a proper model of ASL. You certainly won't find it in the mainstream, or in a TC program. Just like a Jewish person might describe their Hebrew school.....that doesn't mean that English is not spoken or used in a Hebrew school. Its just that the student will not receive an accurate model of Hebrew in a mainstream placement, not will they receive the cultural advantages.

Originally Posted by RedFox

I've seen adults pick up sign language quickly at RIT. If they can do it that fast, kids can do it faster.

Originally Posted by jillio

No doubt. That is how I learned ASL...through immersion in the Deaf culture. I had to speak and understand their language if I wanted to communicate. It's amazing how quickly that I picked it up. And my son was only a year old when he was immersed. He left me standing in his dust for speed of learning.

Originally Posted by shel90

Now that is happening with my son's deaf 2 year old friend. Her ASL is surpassing her parents' now cuz she is with my deaf babysitter all day. Her parents are happy about that though but they are pretty fluent considering they have been taking classes for a year and half. I was impressed!

Originally Posted by jillio

Same here. I was pretty fluent after a year because when you are immersed, you learn without even realizing you are learning. I gained sort of an automatic understanding where I could understand what was being said to me in ASL, and I could reply with relative ease, but if I had to stop and try to interpret it into English, it took me a minute to start thinking in English again. I'm still that way. Wouldn't make a very good terp, at all, despite being fluent, LOL!

But my son took to it so easily and so quickly that it was obvious that was what he needed. He didn't have to struggle, he didn't have to sit and go through formalized instruction, he didn't need organized play therapy. All he needed was exposure. Today, he signs like a native. I am fluent, but no where near a native in my abilities.

Originally Posted by Deborah

She is just very nervous about being in an environment where she doesn't understand the language--she is scared about being in a situation where someone who only uses ASL tries to converse with her in ASL and she is not sure how to respond--she is just scared of not understanding and being left out in some way.

Originally Posted by Deborah

I hope that my daughter WILL learn ASL as fast as many of you seem to have done--she is just very nervous about being "out of the loop" when she first gets to the deaf school. As I have said before, one reason she felt very comfortable when visiting FSDB was because people TALKED to her and put her at ease about learning sign. Some students in her age group, some of their teachers, some of the staff, etc.--they talked back and forth about the school--they talked to her in English--they told her that they would help her learn to sign and that soon she would be "good at it." Some said that they did not know sign until they came to FSDB and that they are still learning--some said that they learned fast--some said that they had to start fresh because they knew BRITISH(or maybe AUSTRALIAN?) sign language and that it was very different than ASL.

She is just very nervous about being in an environment where she doesn't understand the language--she is scared about being in a situation where someone who only uses ASL tries to converse with her in ASL and she is not sure how to respond--she is just scared of not understanding and being left out in some way. The main reason she thinks that she will be comfortable at FSDB is because many people approached her in spoken English--her first language--and said that they will help her learn ASL--what she hopes will eventually become her second language. The people who made her feel comfortable were peers, teachers, and staff--no one made her feel out of place or left out because she did not yet know ASL. She is nervous, that's all--she is not sure how to respond to people in ASL yet--maybe some of the first signs she needs to learn is to somehow indicate that "she does not know ASL very well but that she is learning." You know how it feels when someone approaches you speaking a language that you do not understand, or if you approach someone and quickly realize that they did not understand your language--it is kind of awkward, but for teenagers it can be REALLY REALLY awkward--they have NO IDEA what to say or do! Just as some Spanish-speaking people quickly learn to say, "No English" and some English speakers quickly learn to say, "No habla Espanol", I guess there needs to be a polite way to sign the same idea--"No ASL, but I'm learning"--my daughter needs to learn this quickly so she can quickly explain to anyone approaching her in ASL that she does not yet understand but she wants to learn. Still, she would be much more comfortable at a school where there are almost as many people speaking in English as there are people signing--a good flow of both languages all around campus. She would be much less comfortable at a school that was more "silent" with little spoken English going on. She REALLY wants to learn ASL, but she wants to have lots of people to talk to as well--a good combination of BOTH is the best environment for her.

Originally Posted by Buffalo

If you already moved to Florida, how about having your daughter visit some girls from FSDB throughout this summer? That way she will learn ASL and feel better about it. Plus she would knows few students before she starts the school. Maybe you already plan on that?

Originally Posted by shel90

And that's perfectly ok and normal. I was nervous about going to Gallaudet University cuz my ASL wasnt fully fluent at that time so I was scared that I would have trouble understanding the professors and the other students since I had gotten used to having a oral terp at Arizona State. It was only during my last semester that I switched from oral to ASL terp. By the end of my first semester at Gallaudet, I was pretty fluent in ASL and able to understand most ASL users both in and out of the classroom. Then by the end of my 2 nd semester (a year later), I was fully fluent. At that time, I was 28 years old and you know that for adults, it takes longer for us to pick up on a new language. I am sure your daughter will pick ASL up within 2 years.

Tell your daughter she is not the only deaf child or person to go through this. Good luck!

Originally Posted by Deborah

As I have said before, one reason she felt very comfortable when visiting FSDB was because people TALKED to her and put her at ease about learning sign. Some students in her age group, some of their teachers, some of the staff, etc.--they talked back and forth about the school--they talked to her in English--they told her that they would help her learn to sign and that soon she would be "good at it."

Originally Posted by faire_jour

Ideally, all students in a bi-bi school have been exposed to ASL from birth. That is the dream, but in reality most show up as oral failures, or no language at all. Our teachers work hard everyday to immerse these kids with language and I have yet to meet one, regardless of additional handicap, that hasn't soared to their highest potential. Bi-bi schools often take the cast-offs, multiply handicapped kids, immigrant kids with no family support, oral failures, and extremly late diagnosed kids, and make sure that they succeed.

Originally Posted by Buffalo

*nodding* That is why I see TC as a half-hearted move toward Bi-Bi and deaf education reforms are moving at the sped of molasses. I also want to see more deaf teachers as they are very good role models for the kids. I am impatient when it come to deaf education. I just want to see the deaf kids on the par with hearing kids. I also want the deaf kids to know other deaf kids for emotional support. Bi-Bi is the way to go.

Originally Posted by faire_jour

But, see, this is where things get sticky. Were the teachers and other students speaking to her in front of other Deaf kids? If so, don't you find that really rude to the kids who can't use spoken English. The reason that bi-bi schools exsist is so that no one is left out regardless of their "listening skills".

Originally Posted by faire_jour

My daughter has had 3 teachers and 6 aides, only 1 was hearing. Her principal is Deaf, and her Kindergarten teacher will be too.

Originally Posted by faire_jour

My daughter has had 3 teachers and 6 aides, only 1 was hearing. Her principal is Deaf, and her Kindergarten teacher will be too.